Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

[mathiverse]

My observation is that extroverts tend to invite you vehemently no matter what you say even if you know from experience that you won't add anything to their experience and you don't want to go. I also noticed those same extroverts probably won't even notice if you don't show up and they still like you as much as before if you don't go. In these work situations, you really aren't a big part of their experience and you showing up won't make a difference to them, but they are following a script when they insist you go without hearing you when you explain why you don't want to go.

[Veronica]

Write here to recalibrate. Went to breakfast with the infrastructure team. They are organizing some after-work events in November and asked if I wanted to participate. I said that okumurahata is strange and even if he appreciates his coworkers, he won’t go (politically correct statement). They insisted that I should come. They are also organizing a Christmas dinner, luckily I will be on holiday at that time. As a salaryman, do you think it’s odd that I don’t attend such events?

Yes, you're throwing away a good opportunity.

I read through some of your past posts, and you specifically mention that "people tend to get a bad impression of me, but I tend to grow on them over time".Doesn't this mean that work colleagues are a bit of a captive audience to practice on, some of whom have already warmed up to you despite some of your perceived quirks and shortcomings?

Besides, 'its who you know, not what you know". Wish the world wasn't this way, but it is. Totally incompetent people get great opportunities all the time, mostly because they know the person who can help them lock down those opportunities when they present themselves.

[okumurahata]

I also think a little bit like @mathiverse, that they invite me following a script, but they know that I am not the life of the party and won’t miss me if I don’t go. Honestly, I know I won’t say much.

With the engineer who is going to retire, it’s nice to go for a coffee sporadically because it’s a relationship that has grown naturally, but these after-work events feel forced to me, and I feel obliged to put on a fake smile.

I’ve made some good friends in the past at work, but I’ve never attended these kinds of events. However, it’s also true, as you say @Veronica, that my solitary attitude might be harming my career, if I even have one.

Honestly, I might have a fear of work drama, because my opinions are often on the contrarian side and someone could potentially get offended. The problem is that in case of drama, I need to see the coworkers/bosses every day, so in my opinion it’s better to say as little as possible, do my job, and go home.

[okumurahata]

I also hear constantly the voice of @AxelHeyst, telling me that the doors of the cage are open. I step to the door, move my wings, and then go back inside again. I’m a chicken. I’m also starting to procrastinate at work more and more; burnout is real. I told my girlfriend today that I will quit after Christmas. I saw the change in her expression, and the chicken went back inside the cage…

[ertyu]

If you guys can't talk it out, this is a sign of long-term incompatibility, at least for me

[jacob]

Write here to recalibrate. Went to breakfast with the infrastructure team. They are organizing some after-work events in November and asked if I wanted to participate. I said that okumurahata is strange and even if he appreciates his coworkers, he won’t go (politically correct statement). They insisted that I should come. They are also organizing a Christmas dinner, luckily I will be on holiday at that time. As a salaryman, do you think it’s odd that I don’t attend such events?

Caveat: You're talking to the guy who never went to the cafeteria ("Sorry, I don't eat lunch") and I later found out that at least one person did think that was odd. I wasn't very politically correct back then. A few tried to get me to join their bar hopping and my response was something to the effect of "I'd rather go to the dentist because at least then I'd get something out of it". (A better PC strategy would be to suggest something you'd like better than socializing. "Sorry, I'm not really into restaurants, but if you guys want to go for a run during lunch, hit me up.")

In terms of career, people do sometimes to bring along their competent(*) colleagues from work when they eventually leave company A for another company B. If company B is hiring, it helps to have someone locally recommend you or even make you aware of the position. (And this is why corporations invented non-competes to stop the poaching.) That said, there are strong connections, medium connections, and weak connections. In terms of networking, apparently, the medium connections are optimal. Those are people that is somewhere between the guy on the desk next to you and someone you met at mingling event, perhaps you worked on a project for/with them. I'd focus my social energies on the medium connections; not trying to greet 200 people at the xmas party. That's like having 3000 facebook "friends".

(*) Based on subsequent collaborations that actually happened I'm not convinced being a great drinking buddy is enough for these opportunities. Just being "popular" is not enough when actual work has to be done. IOW, I don't think after-work events have traction. It's important to understand that people organize them (typically those damn ESFJs) because they think they're fun. They're considered a "reward", not a punishment for the introverts or those who would rather stay home and teach their parrot how to curse in German than go and scream along with the crowd at a Bears game.

Also +1 that extroverts don't really care. Indeed, an extrovert strategy is accept enthusiastically, and then proceed to show up late and leave early. Insofar "the fun is mandatory", you can do the same. Show up, get your face seen by the boss (not on your way out), and then leave as soon as possible. Another strategy is to have lots of invitations and use them to cancel each other out.

[Scott 2]

The work events are the rest of work. People spend 40+ years on their career. They are searching for others who make it pleasant. Those are who they hire, promote, refer, pick for good projects, etc.

Competence is only the price of admission. The inner circle, with the best opportunities, requires friendships. The extroverts ritualize it, because it's a fundamental career habit.

Honestly, I might have a fear of work drama, because my opinions are often on the contrarian side and someone could potentially get offended.

Independent of work, this is a skill to develop. Any group where you can unload across a broad swath of contrarian opinions, will be narrow and insular by definition. The art of finding sustainable common ground, in mixed company, makes life easier.

[shaz]

+1 to what @Scott 2 said. Being social won't get you invited to the high stakes things (major project, new employer) but it can get you invited to low stakes things where you can demonstrate competence for the higher stakes things.

Also, if you don't want to share contrarian opinions and you also don't want to fake other opinions you can try getting good at asking questions and expressing interest in a neutral way. Bonus points if your questions redirect them to areas that you don't find to be counter to your personal values.

So for example if a colleague you don't know well is talking about how he is planning to take out a massive loan to buy a Hummer for his 50-mile daily commute, what you don't do is share your opinions about car loans or gas guzzlers or long commutes. What you do is ask, "What made you choose a Hummer? How long have you wanted one? Do they come in many colors? What does your wife think about it? How many passengers can it carry? Do you recommend that dealership? " And so on. If you can think of a question based on an answer they just gave, even better as this demonstrates you were listening. And so on until they get tired of the topic. Most people enjoy talking about themselves and their interests so if you do this well they will walk away thinking you are a swell person. Also this technique can help you fill a lot of time not standing in silence feeling awkward.

Asking people if they can recommend something they mentioned (restaurant, chiropractor, etc.) is good because it implies you value their judgment. Also smile and nod a lot while they are talking. Neutral expressions of interest can be things like, "that's interesting, tell me more, I never thought of that."

The question about their wife in the example above is designed to divert them to talking about their family which might be an area where you have fewer contrarian opinions to suppress. "Oh your wife thinks it will be great for transporting the kids. How many kids do you have? How old are they? Do you keep busy transporting them to activities? Little Peggy Sue is on a travel softball team ... I bet that keeps you busy! How is her team doing this year? Do you like the coach?" And so on.

[AxelHeyst]

I also hear constantly the voice of @AxelHeyst, telling me that the doors of the cage are open. I step to the door, move my wings, and then go back inside again. I’m a chicken. I’m also starting to procrastinate at work more and more; burnout is real. I told my girlfriend today that I will quit after Christmas. I saw the change in her expression, and the chicken went back inside the cage…

I spent a long time inside my cage. I made major life (in)decisions based on my interpretation of the facial expressions of my girlfriends.

I can remember five moments in my life when I experienced a specific emotional cocktail of lightness, expansiveness, a sense of freedom, and also a sense of authenticity -- the sense that I was finally, for once, being true and good to who I was as a person, that I was acting as if I myself mattered as a human being:

1) When I walked out of my college job
2) When I broke up with gf#1 for good
3) When I broke up with gf#2
4) When I got laid off
5) When I broke up with gf#3.

All of these events involved lots of painful, difficult, complicated emotions and consequences as well. But in those long experiences were moments when I felt a rare and precious spike of *rightness*, that whatever hardships attended the choices I was making, it was the right one, for me.*

A thought that attended every single one of those events was "Oh, is that all it took? Is that all it was? This change in my life was this easy to make happen? If I'd have known I would have done this a long time ago. I would have put less effort in to it and I would have just done it."

Easy to think in hindsight, difficult to do with your toes on the edge of the cliff. I get it.

--

*I'm not arguing that quitting or breaking up with your gf are the specific right decisions for you to make. Those were the right specific decisions for me at the time. To generalize, I'm arguing for a) deciding what you want, what is the authentic right choice for you, *knowing that you will never be able to achieve full certainty about what the right choice is!*, and then b) doing it as quickly and gracefully as you can.

[okumurahata]

Thanks to all of you for the responses. I’m really struggling at this point in my life. When I was in my mid-20s, I was confident and sure about everything. Now, in my early 30s, I’ve become unconfident and fearful of everything.

In the past, it was more like, “if I don’t feel like going to the cafeteria, I won’t.” At this job, I feel afraid all the time about being ostracised (different from deliberate solitude). However, I feel incapable of finding another job in this field and I doubt I’d pass any tests with my current mental state.

The library could provide some relief, albeit temporary. But considering @jacob’s 10/10/10 rule, I might regret quitting; it would further delay FI.

In summary, every day is a struggle to try to act normal. I don’t even know who I am anymore.

On the other hand, I’m very happy with my girlfriend. She’s incredibly supportive, and if I wanted to quit and work at the library, she’d be okay with it. She was supportive when I left jobs in the past. The problem lies in her current visa situation; I also agree that quitting now might not be a wise move on my part. It’s complicated. As an INTJ, she is one of those people who I can talk to without filters.

[Crusader]

I relate(d) to the "I feel incapable of finding another job in this field and I doubt I’d pass any tests with my current mental state", except replace "mental state" with "skills level". I actually tried to find a few jobs that I thought would be an improvement, and I failed, so then I started working on my skills. Ironically, I improved at my job due to this and now my job is more enjoyable.

So, maybe what would work is to try to figure out how to improve your mental state and/or the fear of being ostracized. I found Dr. K (Healthy Gamer)'s videos (you can look him up on YouTube) useful for my own mental state during that period. However, I do think that usually people are too busy with their own thoughts and problems. They are really not thinking about why okumurahata is weird

[AnalyticalEngine]

What's the 10/10/10 rule? I don't recall that one.

Regardless, @okumurahata, as someone also in my early 30s, I feel like this mental state you're describing is very relatable, to the point I'd almost call it a life stage. It's like your 30s come with enough experience that you can finally reevaluate your life under a new light, which is usually not very fun because you're suddenly aware of all the blindspots the 20-year-old version of you was unaware of. I suppose there's also the growing awareness that one no longer has infinite time either, as your 30s are when you start to become more aware of aging.

I don't have much advice except to say I think this is pretty normal. It sucks when you're going through it but it's a sign of growth.

[ertyu]

What's the 10/10/10 rule? I don't recall that one.

Something that was recommended to me when I was the sort of insane OP is right now. I found my job unbearable and I was a howling banshee of madness; my world had narrowed down to, "I somehow need to endure this situation because this situation makes the best rational sense -- the only problem is, I seem to not be able to endure it. So how do I endure it until I have enough savings to leave?"

One suggestion was, stop and think, "How would I feel about this in 10 min? 10 days? 10 years?"
The purpose being to gain distance and perspective.

@okumurahata, when I was where you are, I similarly found myself feeling incapable and paranoid. I similarly found myself being unable to have a broad view: it seemed to me that there were no feasible options or choices beyond what I was currently doing (and enduring). And it's true that while your brain is in that state, you will not be seeing the options or choices. All I can say is, I know what it's like to be in that mental state. It's not you, it's the circumstances. I was in a different job, but I was similarly psychologically unsuited to it. People similarly gave me behavioral tips, and I''m sure those tips would have worked, but in the end, what was wrong wasn't a matter of any one psychological tip or trick, it was a matter of changing my situation.

I did experience some improvement after working remotely for covid even though I lived with my parents, which was another type of crazy-making. I got another job in the same field, it was better because it was in a less dysfunctional organization, but I was still banshee-crazy and paranoid, just less so. In the end, what worked is quitting: quitting my parents, and quitting my job and changing fields. I did need the admittedly shaky reassurance of having accumulated 25x of the median yearly wage in my country of origin. There are many, many reasons why this number isn't objectively "safe" in a problem solved forever way, but it was enough to make me be able to let go psychologically.

I'm not sure what you'd need to make the move and start seeing your options. From what I know of you, in my opinion the best choice for you personally would be to work the way @zbigi works: remote, contracts, breaks between the contracts, very frugal so low cost of living. See what you need to know and be able to do to make the shift. Start taking steps while still at your current job. Once the road ahead seems a bit clearer, quit and work at the library, using the time to rest and make a plan of any future qualifications you need, etc. Good luck. There's no magic wand, but hopefully five years down the road you'd be able to look back on this time and say, "I feel better now"

[macg]

My opinion is you do you.

If you feel your future goals include climbing the corporate ladder to the upper management heights, then yeah, you have to do the nonsense corporate "RA RA" stuff - the social events, the organizing, etc. Because that's part of the upper management gig - you have to be a salesperson for the company lifestyle.

I knew at a young age I didn't want any of that, so I only did the social stuff I wanted to do, I never did anything just for the company "cool points". I was lucky in my first real IT corporate job, and fell in with a group of people who became friends, so we did a lot of social things - lunch, breaks, happy hours, trips. But these are friends that I am still friends with today, a couple of decades later, all of us at separate companies now.

As for your thoughts on not knowing who you are, and not feeling normal, I agree with what others have said, that it's not unusual throughout life. I will add though, that in my opinion, who cares what others think. If others don't think you're normal, who cares? I (thankfully) have never cared what other people think. Sure, I will listen to critiques from friends and people I respect, that's different. But the world at large? The guy laughing at me on my bike as they drive by in their Hummer, or the random person at work who I may do work with every day but never share more than that? I don't care one bit what they think of me. So I say it's not unusual to be out of sorts with yourself, trying to figure out who you are, what to do - just don't let other's beliefs drive that. Let your own self-reflection be the impetus.

As for change, whether it be work, location, or other life changes, my vote is almost always just do it. I have said this in a few people's journals - worst case you find out it was a bad choice, and then you just change again. At least you learned something you didn't know before. My theory on life is if you aren't changing (growing, learning, etc), you aren't living.

Best of luck with your choices!

[shaz]

"Corporate" is a game. If you are in the game, you might find that you are less miserable if you are good at it. Like any game, you can be born good at it or you can learn to be good at it. You can also opt out entirely and that is a valid choice.

[okumurahata]

Yesterday, I worked many more hours than I should have. Today, while practicing assertiveness, I declined a request from a coordinator and didn’t attend a meeting I should have because it was outside my schedule. Tomorrow, I might get in trouble, but honestly, I’m no longer concerned.

I informed the team that I won’t be attending the next after-work event. I don’t aspire to climb the corporate ladder or be in this game for the long run; just enough to achieve a 4% WR, and that’s the end of the story.

[delay]

I declined a request from a coordinator
...
I informed the team that I won’t be attending

Perhaps this helps, in my experience colleagues trigger on explicit negatives. For meetings I'd rather avoid, I do not reply, or accept tentatively. Then if my manager reminds me, I accept an invitation and then don't show up. If that's not okay I message my absence at the last moment. Reasons like "busy with an incident", "project work" or even "family business" are accepted without question.

It's surprising, but for me this works much better than declining. Still wondering why.

[okumurahata]

Perhaps this helps, in my experience colleagues trigger on explicit negatives. For meetings I'd rather avoid, I do not reply, or accept tentatively. Then if my manager reminds me, I accept an invitation and then don't show up. If that's not okay I message my absence at the last moment. Reasons like "busy with an incident", "project work" or even "family business" are accepted without question.

It's surprising, but for me this works much better than declining. Still wondering why.

I will try this from now on. It’s an elegant way to avoid as many meetings as I can. I need it to protect my own sanity.

By the way, no mention of my absence yesterday, and no consequences. I should do it more often.

[Scott 2]

Declining meetings is good. Learning to set appropriate boundaries is an essential life skill.

I'd much encourage an assertive conversation about priorities and trade offs, opposed to passive aggressive avoidance. Same with any situations looking for overtime. Instead of muddling through, you can earn the ability to confidently decline.

When your time is framed as a scarce and valued resource, you are treated better.

You don't contextualize with hours worked. Simply - I'm past capacity and need to prioritize favored project. If management won't prioritize, do you favorite stuff well, then apologize for the things that slip. Eventually you'll only have the favorite stuff.


If I have a regret from my working time, it's that I was so focused on getting my freedom from, that I failed to appreciate the special opportunities offered by work. Often that is the extra stuff. In hindsight - I would have played the priority / capacity card more often, to free energy for the events.

[okumurahata]

If I have a regret from my working time, it's that I was so focused on getting my freedom from, that I failed to appreciate the special opportunities offered by work. Often that is the extra stuff. In hindsight - I would have played the priority / capacity card more often, to free energy for the events.

Based on my past work experiences, I have never regretted not attending extra stuff. I prefer to spend my time with my partner, friends, or simply at home. I typically don’t share many common interests with my coworkers. For those with whom I do have a connection, we aim to maintain it outside of these events, in a natural and unforced manner. I’m not inclined towards participating in company-organised after-work gatherings.

It might harm my career, but upon reflection, I don’t aspire to climb the corporate ladder. I place greater value on pure and genuine relationships than adhering to corporate bullshit.