Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
Why not negotiate for what you want, since you're already prepared to walk away? What's the downside?
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
@Scott 2,
Upper management receives approximately €60k/year, middle management around €45k/year, and ICs around €35k/year. However, as an IC, I'm capped at €45k, which they won't offer. I also would want to change teams, project, building, logos, the smell of the toilettes. Oh, and work remotely 100% of the time. Perhaps I could negotiate something close to my wildest desires, but I'm not confident in my negotiation skills, so I expect to receive a very average deal.
The question is, even if I were to receive the best possible deal, would it be worth staying here? I feel like being here is negatively impacting who I am as human. I used to be more confident before starting here, but now I feel like a failure. When you are in the bench for a long time, you start to doubt if you are a capable football player.
On the other hand, it's increasingly difficult to see the same people every day for such a long time. Small annoyances in their personalities become amplified over time. I wish I could stay here longer, but every day feels like a psychological battle with myself…
Upper management receives approximately €60k/year, middle management around €45k/year, and ICs around €35k/year. However, as an IC, I'm capped at €45k, which they won't offer. I also would want to change teams, project, building, logos, the smell of the toilettes. Oh, and work remotely 100% of the time. Perhaps I could negotiate something close to my wildest desires, but I'm not confident in my negotiation skills, so I expect to receive a very average deal.
The question is, even if I were to receive the best possible deal, would it be worth staying here? I feel like being here is negatively impacting who I am as human. I used to be more confident before starting here, but now I feel like a failure. When you are in the bench for a long time, you start to doubt if you are a capable football player.
On the other hand, it's increasingly difficult to see the same people every day for such a long time. Small annoyances in their personalities become amplified over time. I wish I could stay here longer, but every day feels like a psychological battle with myself…
Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
This is a chance to learn. Even if you have zero intention of staying - real stakes are on the table. You could simply say - "To fit with my life, I'd need full remote, X duties, and €50k." Justified by a need to meet obligations at home and broaden your experience.okumurahata wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:56 pmPerhaps I could negotiate something close to my wildest desires, but I'm not confident in my negotiation skills, so I expect to receive a very average deal.
Maybe they come back with 1 day a week hybrid and €45k. If it's not acceptable, you get the experience of negotiating to the point where you walk. Unless you're a total savage about it, the conversation will only gain you respect and value. The action is confidence building. It feels powerful.
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
You are correct, @Scott2. I'll give it a try as an experiment and comment on the results here. My biggest fear is that they might give me what I ask for... Anyway, there's nothing to lose. Let's see. I'll ask for 50k and a fully remote position as an IC. My prediction is that I'll receive a counteroffer of 40k and 3 remote days.
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
I think I've had that fear also. They might accommodate your frustrations into a corner, and chain them with your own words. I guess you can minimize this fear by having a very clear idea of what would work for you, and not giving in too much in the negotiation.okumurahata wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:16 amMy biggest fear is that they might give me what I ask for...
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
You can also say no even if they give you what you want!!! You don't have to defend, justify, or explain. "Thanks for the generous offer, but I've decided to go in a different direction." Leave it at that.
Of course, you can also take it, if you want.
Of course, you can also take it, if you want.
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
Yes, I was going to say the exact thing.mathiverse wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:56 amYou can also say no even if they give you what you want!!!
Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
40k and 3 remote days will be a huge improvement to now. good luck, i hope the negotiations develop in your favor
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
May 2024 update:
Progress until retirement (considering 25x yearly expenses):
It hasn’t been a happy month. I’ve been hesitating to negotiate my salary, fearing they might increase my workload, when I actually want to do less, not more. I wish I could reduce my working hours proportionally to my progress towards retirement, making the transition smoother. Ideally, I’d be working around 30 hours a week at this stage, without noticing much difference. My contract is ending soon, and I’m uncertain about what to do next. I’ll probably end up continuing in the same working conditions due to loss aversion, I suppose.
On a different note, I’ve had a significant disagreement with my partner. I caught her in some lies (not related to cheating), but dishonesty is a deal-breaker for me. Although we might be able to work through it, I’m starting to question the strength of our relationship.
I’m not certain if depression is resurfacing, but I’m feeling the need to spend more time alone. Forcing social interactions at work is wearing down my nerves, and my current relationship feels somewhat suffocating. Additionally, the passion seems to be fading, which is somewhat expected after 8 years, but concerning nonetheless.
For some reason, I’ve been contemplating the idea of finding a job in Saudi Arabia this month. While the place is vastly different from Spain and somewhat hellish, the prospect of a tax-free salary, solitude, and distance from people might help me progress towards my goals faster. Probably I will change my mind in a few days, but I just want to let the thought come to the surface…
Code: Select all
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Assets
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stocks: 42.829,09 EUR
Cash: 19.228,86 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 62.057,95 EUR
+----------------------------------+
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Liabilities
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Debt: 0 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 0 EUR
+----------------------------------+
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Monthly income
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Job: 2.300 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 2.300 EUR
+----------------------------------+
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
// Monthly expenses
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Rent: 500 EUR
Electricity: ~40 EUR
Water: ~20 EUR
Internet: 40 EUR
Food: ~400 EUR
Gym: ~50 EUR
+----------------------------------+
TOTAL = 1.050 EUR
+----------------------------------+
Code: Select all
⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ 19,7%
On a different note, I’ve had a significant disagreement with my partner. I caught her in some lies (not related to cheating), but dishonesty is a deal-breaker for me. Although we might be able to work through it, I’m starting to question the strength of our relationship.
I’m not certain if depression is resurfacing, but I’m feeling the need to spend more time alone. Forcing social interactions at work is wearing down my nerves, and my current relationship feels somewhat suffocating. Additionally, the passion seems to be fading, which is somewhat expected after 8 years, but concerning nonetheless.
For some reason, I’ve been contemplating the idea of finding a job in Saudi Arabia this month. While the place is vastly different from Spain and somewhat hellish, the prospect of a tax-free salary, solitude, and distance from people might help me progress towards my goals faster. Probably I will change my mind in a few days, but I just want to let the thought come to the surface…
Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
That's because you've never been in a relationship with somebody who claimed to practice "radical" or "total" honesty.dishonesty is a deal-breaker for me
Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
Meditation, mountain climbing, snorkeling, Sharia Law.okumurahata wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 12:53 amsolitude, and distance from people might help me progress towards my goals faster.
Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
Do the people who earn more than you, work harder? At what level does that start happening?okumurahata wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 12:53 amIt hasn’t been a happy month. I’ve been hesitating to negotiate my salary, fearing they might increase my workload, when I actually want to do less, not more.
In my own career, I saw little correlation with effort and pay. What someone did and if they negotiated, determined pay. Effort was only a 5-10% modifier. I saw lazy people make a lot of money.
There was a partner track. Some of those people worked extremely hard. The effort offered promotions, which changed what they did, eventually impacting pay.
I also experienced - as I earned more, I was treated better. Given more latitude, less micromanagement. Judged on results over effort. Extra training. More influence over how we worked. When a company decides you are valued, that extends beyond salary.
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
@7w5, even if it hurts, give me truth.
@Henry, meditation on the last time I ate jamón ibérico.
@Scott 2, maybe not harder, but being more committed. I see managers having more office politics kind of work or maintaining a facade about how much work they have and how many meetings they attend. I don’t want to be available 24/7, as they seem to be. They probably work less hard, but need to be more visible in general. However, perhaps my concept of more salary == more managerial position is not accurate.
@Henry, meditation on the last time I ate jamón ibérico.
@Scott 2, maybe not harder, but being more committed. I see managers having more office politics kind of work or maintaining a facade about how much work they have and how many meetings they attend. I don’t want to be available 24/7, as they seem to be. They probably work less hard, but need to be more visible in general. However, perhaps my concept of more salary == more managerial position is not accurate.
Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
You're mixing a few things:
1. Working 24/7 - this has little to do with pay. It's related to boundary setting and workplace culture. I agree, it is a losing game.
2. Political savvy - this has everything to do with pay. It's the highest return on effort you'll find. If you want to do less, this is the ticket. You are not paid for what you do, but for the value others perceive you add. The facade of 24/7 availability and diligent hard work, is most likely politics. I wouldn't let it deter you from negotiating.
3. Management. It's a different profession, depends on politics, requires more meetings and does pay more.
1. Working 24/7 - this has little to do with pay. It's related to boundary setting and workplace culture. I agree, it is a losing game.
2. Political savvy - this has everything to do with pay. It's the highest return on effort you'll find. If you want to do less, this is the ticket. You are not paid for what you do, but for the value others perceive you add. The facade of 24/7 availability and diligent hard work, is most likely politics. I wouldn't let it deter you from negotiating.
3. Management. It's a different profession, depends on politics, requires more meetings and does pay more.
Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
You're postulating a connection that's not there. There's no point in fearing that they will increase your workload. Negotiate salary first, deal with everything else later - the hours thing might not even end up being an issue. Also, keep in mind that just because you negotiate, you don't have to accept, even if they end up giving you everything you want.okumurahata wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 12:53 amI’ve been hesitating to negotiate my salary, fearing they might increase my workload, when I actually want to do less, not more.
On Saudi: I'd go. Expat packages often have very good benefits, and if you want a hermit lifestyle, you can have it. What would you do if you go?
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
@Scott 2, @ertyu,
There are two options:
1. They grant my request, but the trade-off entails increased responsibility, involvement in office politics, etc.
2. They maintain the current offer. As you're aware, @oku has unconventional preferences and his anarchic behaviour is not valued at corporations.
If I receive option 1, I hold advantage in the decision-making process. However, if option 2 is presented, which I estimate to have a 40% likelihood, what would you suggest if no improvements are offered? Resign? I find it somewhat pathetic that expressing discomfort could result in remaining in the same position.
As for requesting a raise tactfully, perhaps you could share any experiences or suggestions on how to say it without being too specific? Open to hear some suggestions from other INTJs in the forum.
Regarding to Saudi Arabia, the plan is work, go to the gym, sleep, and repeat. No taxes, no distractions, no family, no friends… The dream of hermINTJs…
There are two options:
1. They grant my request, but the trade-off entails increased responsibility, involvement in office politics, etc.
2. They maintain the current offer. As you're aware, @oku has unconventional preferences and his anarchic behaviour is not valued at corporations.
If I receive option 1, I hold advantage in the decision-making process. However, if option 2 is presented, which I estimate to have a 40% likelihood, what would you suggest if no improvements are offered? Resign? I find it somewhat pathetic that expressing discomfort could result in remaining in the same position.
As for requesting a raise tactfully, perhaps you could share any experiences or suggestions on how to say it without being too specific? Open to hear some suggestions from other INTJs in the forum.
Regarding to Saudi Arabia, the plan is work, go to the gym, sleep, and repeat. No taxes, no distractions, no family, no friends… The dream of hermINTJs…
Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
@oku - Above, you indicate no desire to renew the contract. My advice assumes this holds true, and you are taking the opportunity to practice. IE - walking away with nothing is your default result. So the question here is, can you find more upside? The only way to know, is to negotiate for it.
With that context:
1. Increased responsibility isn't necessarily bad. When you agree to do X, there is an implicit trade. You'll no longer do Y. The value you produce doing X is greater than doing Y. That's why pay goes up. Most people like doing what they're good at, so the quality of the job also goes up. The goal is not to get paid more, because you now do X and Y. That's bullshit. There are soft ways to reject Y - simply de-prioritizing it, for instance.
2. If they don't offer something that works for you, simply follow your original plan. Decline to renew the contract. Honor the terms of what you committed to and move on. Your request for a change to the contract, is the request for a raise. Declining to renew is the last card in your negotiation deck. You don't say "then I'm quitting." You say - "that's too bad, I think there's good opportunity here and wanted to make it work for me. I'll miss everyone, but I need to prioritize growth and moving forward in my career. Thanks for the mentoring you provided. I really do appreciate it. If we can find a way to work together in the future, I'd enjoy that."
It's possible the decline to renew, gives your manager access to a separate bucket of money, allowing a better offer. Not certain at all. And sometimes when people threaten to leave, they are retained, but put on a short list for termination. This gives the company time to staff properly. That result is highly dependent upon how the choice to leave is presented. Don't offer criticism or vent.
Your description of life in Saudi sounds dangerously close to depression. Even the most introverted of us need some positive social contact.
With that context:
1. Increased responsibility isn't necessarily bad. When you agree to do X, there is an implicit trade. You'll no longer do Y. The value you produce doing X is greater than doing Y. That's why pay goes up. Most people like doing what they're good at, so the quality of the job also goes up. The goal is not to get paid more, because you now do X and Y. That's bullshit. There are soft ways to reject Y - simply de-prioritizing it, for instance.
2. If they don't offer something that works for you, simply follow your original plan. Decline to renew the contract. Honor the terms of what you committed to and move on. Your request for a change to the contract, is the request for a raise. Declining to renew is the last card in your negotiation deck. You don't say "then I'm quitting." You say - "that's too bad, I think there's good opportunity here and wanted to make it work for me. I'll miss everyone, but I need to prioritize growth and moving forward in my career. Thanks for the mentoring you provided. I really do appreciate it. If we can find a way to work together in the future, I'd enjoy that."
It's possible the decline to renew, gives your manager access to a separate bucket of money, allowing a better offer. Not certain at all. And sometimes when people threaten to leave, they are retained, but put on a short list for termination. This gives the company time to staff properly. That result is highly dependent upon how the choice to leave is presented. Don't offer criticism or vent.
Your description of life in Saudi sounds dangerously close to depression. Even the most introverted of us need some positive social contact.
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
Today was really weird. I went to breakfast with the team at a café 10 minutes from our workplace. On the way back to the office, at one point I was walking alone, leaving the team behind and arrived at my desk before everyone else. I thought they might say something when they arrived, but there was complete silence. After a while of working, one of my coworkers jokingly asked what he would do if I ever left this place. Another one asked me to help her with something. I think they know I’m a bit odd, but they seem to accept me. At the workplace you never know…
Honestly, I felt a dark cloud hanging over me as I walked back alone, but at the same time, I couldn’t bring myself to start a conversation. I want to feel like I’m part of the team, but I just can’t seem to. Maybe sometimes I come across as too serious, but the truth is, I just don’t know what to say. Despite my strong facade, I feel very lonely.
Negotiations with managers for the next contract are still pending, and there’s only one month to go. I’m still very confused about how to handle it. Should I negotiate and accept the offer, leave the place if negotiations don’t meet my expectations, or just continue here without saying much, almost accepting it like a prison sentence?
Despite depression, I’m still performing well at work, and exercising regularly as well…
Honestly, I felt a dark cloud hanging over me as I walked back alone, but at the same time, I couldn’t bring myself to start a conversation. I want to feel like I’m part of the team, but I just can’t seem to. Maybe sometimes I come across as too serious, but the truth is, I just don’t know what to say. Despite my strong facade, I feel very lonely.
Negotiations with managers for the next contract are still pending, and there’s only one month to go. I’m still very confused about how to handle it. Should I negotiate and accept the offer, leave the place if negotiations don’t meet my expectations, or just continue here without saying much, almost accepting it like a prison sentence?
Despite depression, I’m still performing well at work, and exercising regularly as well…
Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
Do you have access to mental health support, like a therapist? Your problems sound bigger than the job. Help with those might provide clarity around work.
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement
@Scott 2, I'm not sure why, but this was somewhat hurtful (reinforcing your theory of therapy perhaps). Nevertheless, the internet always seems to speak the truth, and probably many readers share your perspective when reading my posts. Therefore, to protect the last tiny bits of my sanity, I'll refrain from sharing my thoughts publicly on 9-to-5 and mental struggles, and instead, I'll just provide monthly updates for the economic report. My mind harbours unpleasant and contradictory thoughts, and I'm reluctant to pay someone to reprogram it, especially if they subjectively deem my thoughts unacceptable, as you seem to as well. I accept my turbulent mind (and the ugly thoughts) with its light and shadow, even if they are not optimal for my profession, economy or life in general.