EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Ask your investment, budget, and other money related questions here
TopHatFox
Posts: 2322
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: FL; 25

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by TopHatFox »

Natürlich, but ere not only book in rodeo

I’d say money is the main form of capital, as it can get you the other ones within reason, or at least the time to get more of those other forms of capital (like becoming a good carpenter or similar)

I also do see that a lot of fun things cost money, and that we are still spending lots of $. For instance, a home costs hundreds of thousands, road tripping/travel costs thousands even with others or van-lifing, degrees to get jobs costs tens of thousands sans scholarships, kids and a SAHP costs hundreds of thousands in terms of time, etc. We definitely still need lots of $ to get to happiness, just much less than average person burning thru $. These things that I listed aren’t extravagant, and that’s what makes inflation/wealth inequality interesting.

Thought of other solution: order the hotdog instead of the burger if eating out, or better yet, get the $1.5 hotdog at Costco. For the same price as the profligate Rock That Burger combo, one can get a (suculent) heart attack 🌭

loutfard
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:14 pm

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by loutfard »

I recently was in a place where it made sense from an ERE perspective to eat out a hot meal a day for a week and a half. I was super busy, with no running water. Eating out was comparatively cheap there at 4-7€ for a healthy vegetarian meal.

That was probably the first time in my life I was really missing our tasty home made food. All somewhat local eat out alternatives were either bland, monotonous, not vegetarian or super unhealthy.

User avatar
Jean
Posts: 1936
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by Jean »

I kind of understand what you means.
Prices have raised a little bit in switzerland, especially for basic stapples, and my very unability to earn any more money made me slightly anxious. But so far, this as been compensated, by how my preference for video games as increased over activities that implies to leave the house and get the risk of spending money on food.

chenda
Posts: 3329
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by chenda »

I've not really noticed any significant price increases, a few quid here and there but otherwise my budget has stayed stable. Apart from energy but as the government subsidised it over winter I payed less than the previous winter. I don't eat out much but on the few occasions I have done prices didn't seem exceptionally high. Although my favourite moisturiser has changed from a 100 ml bottle to a 50 ml bottle at the same price, stealth inflation wise.

zbigi
Posts: 1020
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by zbigi »

TopHatFox wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 6:35 pm
I remember MMM mentioned his first coding job paid 70k 20 yrs ago, and that’s still what most of the entry-level ones pay today (if not 60k). So, yes, developing skills is becoming less and less a cool thing we do, and more of a thing regular ppl will need to adopt
Entry-level coding jobs at US FAANG and second-tier tech firms pay close to $200k now. They're mostly offered to fresh CS (and similar) grads from good universities. Tech salaries in US have gone into a bi-modal distribution, similar to law.

zbigi
Posts: 1020
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by zbigi »

Add increased government intervention across entire developed world - either through laws (regulation) or just increased taxation and following inefficient redistribution by politicians and bureucrats. In Communist Poland, probably 98% of GDP was controlled by bureucrats, plus most things were regulate to the point of absurdity - and boy did it kill growth.

chenda
Posts: 3329
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by chenda »

@zbigi - And in other cases like banking far too little government regulation has killed growth.

User avatar
Sclass
Posts: 2822
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:15 pm
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by Sclass »

Some thoughts. Sorry for the ramble. I’m not good at explaining this in writing. Skip to the end for the one line version.

My dad has had this strong fear of inflation ever since the 70s. He has warned me year after year that we are going to have a big bout of inflation and it’ll wipe me out since I am not employed in a job that will raise the salary. This kind of happened to him in 1976. He didn’t get raises for a few years and it made life tough.

It’s all clouded up in his mind. He said buying his home stabilized his monthly housing costs and that I am doomed because I’ve rented up to now. He has warned me that renting will be my undoing for twenty years. But his interest rate was 12% and housing prices were depressed because of that - like a bond price/yield. So he never compares apples to apples when he recalls “when I was a kid we could get a burger for $0.10 and see a movie for $0.12.” He doesn’t mention he was caddying at the local country club for $2 a day in 1943. However he does remember his house only cost $50,000 in 1975 and now it’s $2,000,000. Sounds bad but it takes about the same fraction of monthly income for a young version of his 1970s self to pay the monthly payment at today’s single digit interest rate. The costs seem to be more set by what clears the market.

I posted up my Costco tire buying experience over three sets of tires for the same car. From 2010 to 2023 it appears my set of Michelin tires has gone up by 6% a year. Same tire. Same car. It sounds horrible to pay $700 for four tires that cost $300 thirteen years ago but I managed.

My wife has always had a rebuttal to my dad’s gloom and doom inflation warnings. She’s no economist but it seems to make sense. She has shopkeeper’s daughter sense. She says somebody has to drive prices. There has to be a customer willing and able to pay higher prices for prices to stay high. Or prices will have to fall. What you don’t want to be is the only one in the room without rising income if the price increases are sustainable. Like there is money falling from the sky but you don’t get any for some reason. Then you’re screwed. Maybe that is what’s happening to the average American.

This seems to be a problem when the goods are in short supply. A few rich earners can snap up all the juicy goods and leave everyone else in the cold. The sellers are happy to deliver at the higher prices. My favorite example was single family home prices going through the roof during the dot com in Silicon Valley. You see this with rich people snatching up beachfront property in SoCal, paintings, rare cars and truffles.

The fact you see burgers at $30 must be telling us something. Perhaps employers are passing on the high cost of service labor on to us? I had a really good burger at home. Bun made by my boutique baker, chopped sirloin processed in my cuisinart, Mexican conflict avocado, overpriced farmers market tomato, Jarlsburg Swiss cheese, etc.. I’d estimate it cost me $7. That’s pretty steep for a home burger but it’s nowhere near $30. No beer. Beef at my grocery is still awfully cheap. Conflict avocados are sinfully cheap.
TopHatFox wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 10:34 pm
I doubt multi-millionaires are agonizing over restaurant outings. So then I wonder if frugality is just a cope for limited resources. The real solution is to see cooking/
-----
I don’t eat out as much since the pandemic. I don’t agonize over restaurant prices but yeah, I’d say what I paid $20/person in 2019 costs roughly $35 now. I chalked it up to labor costs. I pay. I don’t really think about it 1) because I only eat out once a week and 2) it’s chump change compared to say my housing, insurance or even financial management fees (1.25% of millions). So there’s a millionaire’s perspective. I see a lot of mundane stuff for sale and I can buy it. Stuff rich people want is overpriced because money is easily acquired given their enhanced access to money.

Reminds me I spoke to my dear Godmother in Palo Alto last night. 86 years old. She says her son cannot afford her $3,000,000 home that she only paid $400,000 for in 1994. Sounds bad but that’s only 7.5% annualized before taxes, insurance and upkeep. Apple was a better investment. She should know, she was an art dealer to Steve Jobs among others in the 1990s. But it’s all about her expensive house, the price of which was driven up my Steve Job’s minions.

I still think a $30 burger and beer is a ripoff. I refuse to pay that. Suns up. Time to make my own latte and reheat a slice of vegetarian quiche. I can reflect on how little money I’d have if I followed my dad’s inflation phobic financial advice.

Long Sclass style ramble. Short version, make money faster than inflationary surges.

TopHatFox
Posts: 2322
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: FL; 25

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by TopHatFox »

@mathiverse, you guys have friends? :p

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 16097
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by jacob »

TopHatFox wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 1:04 am
Natürlich, but ere not only book in rodeo
Correctamundo, but rodeos also have a clown show and a lot of bullshit, so maybe better to bring a book?

Seriously though. The "prices have increased so I can't afford ..." is as old as hat. Listen to grandpa arguing with the TV and recalling when gas was less than $1/gallon. Maybe noticing this for the first time just means you're getting older 8-)

The economy almost always runs on a bit of inflation (there was some deflation back in the 19th century back when the price of gas was a bale of hay) which is the nominal tide that appears to raise all boats albeit some more than others. For example, the wages of the people who flipped your burger for you have nearly doubled over the past 10 years. However, with your "50% higher than the median US individual"-income, which is both higher than it was in the past and higher than other people's now, you're still only paying with 20-30 minutes of your work. Pretty much the same amount of time as if you had cooked a single burger for yourself w/o batch processing. That never changes. A tailor made suit costs about 1oz of gold. Always has. Probably always will.

This is also why the more self-reliant among us don't notice inflation nearly as much if at all compared to those who rely on paying others to do their cooking or passive entertaining for them because they can't imagine anything beyond going to work to stare at a computer screen, going out to stare at a movie screen, or sit at home and stare at a wall.

It's pretty easy the compare consumer costs between different years. For example, $70,000 buys the same amount of burgers or software engineers in 2003 as $114,700 does in 2023. As a rule of thumb, a good way to avoid being like grandpa is mentally adjusting for the fact that nominal prices double every twenty years or so.

I think you have or thought you had some advantages in coming to ERE while still in college (or was it HS). Yet perhaps this also meant missing some life-lessons of consumerism like being dependent on the winds of the economy; not having enough money for needs at the end of the month because most of the money was spent on wants at the beginning of the month; and adopting an attitude that the world owes one a living. However, maybe it's a process/journey where one eventually comes full circle or alternatively never comes back. Go forth and spend some time making and spending more than most people while complaining to your colleagues about the struggle. Slowly learn things like painting your own kitchen cabinets or cooking your own meals like a normal-income person while congratulating each other on how frugal you are because you're saving 50% on a 110k salary. Explore the rest of the rodeo.

TopHatFox
Posts: 2322
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: FL; 25

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by TopHatFox »

@jacob, I don’t actually spend much per year, maybe as low as 1 JAFI, even when not living w/ parents. Just haven’t made any real $ for a few years. 100k+ sounds much cooler in 2023, really depends on if the job is remote or in dt SF. 70k remote may as well be 100k in-person. Not sure if finding ere young was totally helpful, probably better to have learned code and entrepreneurship if my multi-millionaire startup friend is any indication. Much, much easier to reduce spending than earn lots of $.

User avatar
C40
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:30 am

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by C40 »

TopHatFox wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 10:34 pm
The real solution is to see cooking/frugal living as the preferred option to begin with, but again I’m not sure if this is just a cope. I can kinda see it with some semi-permanent DIY like your own car repairs, but with something routine like food preparation, it’s kinda a PITA.
Huh??? In the U.S., it's a pain in the ass to go eat out. It takes more work and more time than cooking at home. There are also other big reasons why cooking yourself is better, like having control over the ingredients and all other aspects.

Preparing food is the third most basic and important skill of being a living creature. 1-Breath. 2-Drink water. 3-get food. The default is to be able to do it. It's not a 'cope'. :lol: :lol:

chenda
Posts: 3329
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by chenda »

C40 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 9:24 am
Huh??? In the U.S., it's a pain in the ass to go eat out. It takes more work and more time than cooking at home.
Why is that ?

Frita
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:43 pm

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by Frita »

chenda wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 9:26 am
Why is that ?
Perhaps bureaucracy? When I lived in Mexico, there was a gal who sold the most incredible rolled tacos made to order. She was only open on Fridays and sometimes Saturdays. There were three options: chicken, beans, potato (my favorite). One had to bring their own plate and pay in exact change. There were no condiments, no drinks, no place to sit. That was easy for both of us and something I have never seen in the US.

User avatar
Jean
Posts: 1936
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by Jean »

the price of my main source of calories (dry pasta) went from 95.- to 1.45 per kg overnight. i don't need a lot of it, so it's ok, but imagining everything doing the same is scary.

theanimal
Posts: 2670
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:05 pm
Location: AK
Contact:

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by theanimal »

TopHatFox wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 9:00 am
@jacob, I don’t actually spend much per year, maybe as low as 1 JAFI, even when not living w/ parents. Just haven’t made any real $ for a few years. 100k+ sounds much cooler in 2023, really depends on if the job is remote or in dt SF. 70k remote may as well be 100k in-person. Not sure if finding ere young was totally helpful, probably better to have learned code and entrepreneurship if my multi-millionaire startup friend is any indication. Much, much easier to reduce spending than earn lots of $.
So is it a status thing? Why do you feel you need to make a lot of money? Especially considering if you don't spend very much and have (if my extrapolation is correct) 15-20x plus years of savings. As Jacob mentioned, $70k salary puts you in the top 33% of individual income in the US. $100k puts you within the top 20%.

It appears to be much, much harder to go from a level of high spending to low spending than it is to spend one JAFI and find a high paying job. Luxury trap and hedonic treadmill certainly have a role in this. People in higher income brackets get caught up with the idea of comparative advantage as well and don't end up developing nearly as many skills so their lifestyle ends up far more fragile , dependent and prone to disruptions.

TopHatFox
Posts: 2322
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: FL; 25

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by TopHatFox »

@theanimal, I'm not sure what it is. Trying to figure it out tbh. It'd be nice to just be able to buy whatever I want within reason. Also because basic things are pretty expensive, like a house. Oo, I'm top 1/3. Dang, that's cool. what source is that data from? That’d be interesting to investigate

Yeah, I've noticed lots of rich ppl that say "my time is too much per hour to earn less fixing my own car," and fair enough, but then they don't know anything about how their car works.

User avatar
Lemur
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:40 am
Location: USA

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by Lemur »

Is it envy perhaps?

You've mentioned CEO pay being 300x or whatever...but even the minions below them are filthy rich. Lebron James makes $542,378 per basketball game. He hits the proverbial $1m in 2 games. That's close to my own FIRE number. He doesn't worry about restaurant meals lol.

Is this odd and unfair or is it that Lebron James is better at basketball then 9 billion other people on the planet and has earned his keep?

idk. But it does feel like sometimes we're fighting for the peanuts and scraps when inflation outpaces your salary.

There is something to the idea that no one cares about the absolute value of their pie - just that their pie is bigger than their fellow social group.

TopHatFox
Posts: 2322
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: FL; 25

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by TopHatFox »

@Lemur, could be. Also, everyone’s frame of reference is now as big as the world, because income data is now available in detail for pretty much the entire west, from the custodian to the coder to the CEO. There also seems to be a skew on perception of income on social media. I often see ppl saying 100k isn’t much on social media, but 250k - that’s where it’s at. I’m just thinking, that’s a tiny % of the population. Could explain why ppl don’t wanna work as much; why work hard if your share of the pie is relatively small despite working 50 hrs/wk.

I wouldn’t want to be Lebron, being that famous paints a giant target on your back. Would much rather just be like my friend, successful startup + relative-nobody. & haha yeah, it is unique that actors and sports players are simply employees. Their fame gets them deals, so really they’re also a brand.

User avatar
Sclass
Posts: 2822
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:15 pm
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: EVERYTHING Too $$$ Now

Post by Sclass »

TopHatFox wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 12:39 pm
Could explain why ppl don’t wanna work as much; why work hard if your share of the pie is relatively small despite working 50 hrs/wk.

I wouldn’t want to be Lebron, being that famous paints a giant target on your back.
Working does seem like a losers game. Especially when you get 1/2 taxed away when you hit the proverbial six figures. You can try to fight back by taking on a giant mortgage to shelter your income but then you’ve bought into another middle class lie.

You got that right about Lebron. I’m sure he doesn’t care about the bill, he cares about the other customers mobbing him while he eats his Big Mac.

Post Reply