ERE Fest 2023: Ft Dirtbag

[AxelHeyst]

Yep, detailed instructions to within 10-20 miles and one pic are as good as my address. But your point is taken, Jacob, more could be done to make what's involved in travel clearer to those considering attending.

A bivvie is appropriate here in Sept with a 20° quilt, I love mine. Bring a tarp in case it rains.

Looking into willows and pee planters are on the list. I have to think carefully about what I plant here: the sun is harsh and we get 5" of rain historically. Last year we had a ten month period with 2". Etc.

[AxelHeyst]

I wonder what the minimum viable size for a fest is? We had 20. There was some speculation that 40 would be too much, too easy to get lost in the crowd. What's too few / what's the minimum critical mass? Could 5 people with the right event design have a similarly positive experience? More intimate less diversity... worth experimenting with I think.

[2Birds1Stone]

You could probably get away with 6-8 engaged peeps as a minimum. Depending on how well the machine is oiled up to 40 doesn't seem too far fetched though, especially if you have repeat attendees who make it a point to help integrate the first timers.

DW and I will be in attendance next year, we're already trying to figure out how to best make use of a trip out west (road trip to PNW, section hike of PCT, etc) to spend a significant amount of time out there. I'm prepping my family here in Europe for the divergence from our normal schedule of being here through Sept

So whatever you decide on for a number, hope you have space for two vagabonders.

[7Wannabe5]

I always thought lingonberries were the poshest. Maybe I'll attend the fest next year if AH performs the permaculture miracle of growing willows (extreme water lovers) in the desert They are used in creating mini-wetlands filtering systems in permaculture projects in damp regions such as the U.K. In a desert setting, water is obviously the scarce resource. Urine is too strong to be applied directly in most garden settings. It's not going to hurt a tree, if you pee right next to it in a region with reasonable amount of rainfall, but it can burn the heck out of tender plants. Many commercial composting toilets actually function by dehydrating the solid waste, and in the desert a design implementing dehydration towards relative sterility could easily be implemented. Diluting the urine with water in a system that is well contained by clay. glass or plastic would be least wasteful. An aquaponics system could be integrated. Another very important factor to keep in mind in a desert setting is that water and liquified nutrients are going to run right through the sand absent a barrier. Desert permaculture projects are very interesting, because they basically try to answer the question "How do you create and maintain a natural oasis?" Some think the answer is more akin to "If you build it they will come." and others think the answer is more akin to "If they come, it will be built." ("they" being varieties of organisms including human festival goers dumping their waste which will attract other organisms in a greater density than the surrounding desert, thereby initiating a positive feedback loop.)

[Quadalupe]

Poles are okay I had them in carry on numerous times. I am talking the flexible some-sort-of-fibre with a rubber string pulled through, unsure about the old school aluminium ones but think they’re not used for 2 person tents anyway.

I wish this happened in Europe by the way, I would totally plan an up to a month cycling trip to catch it

I'm thinking about how to host one on my land or where i live.
That would be easy to reach without car, with three airport to choose from.

Ditto! I would love to participate in/help out with a similar event in Europe and would figure out how to get there by train and bike.

When I get back to Europe, let's set up something to discuss this! Maybe we can get EUREFEST 24 going!

[avalok]

That is a great name. A fest closer to home would be great, would also do my best to get there.

[Jean]

seeing how much we talked about pee, eurofest would be more appropriate.

I know a few rentals that are easy too reach in places with no neighbours, and could accomodate up to 40 persons for a few hundred chf.

If next erefest@quailhaven is in september, i probably won't come, because hunting season But i'de be happy for you

[jacob]

But your point is taken, Jacob, more could be done to make what's involved in travel clearer to those considering attending.

I used to pride myself on my ability to "get anywhere in the world as long as I had a functional credit card". However, one can also see the inherent presumptions in that (false) pride when it's contingent on always taking the the train/air->shuttle/walk->motel route. The only other travel method I know is "driving with luggage". EREFest2023 didn't overlap in that Venn diagram, so this created a barrier of entry for me. I was for example, completely unaware that one could fly with a tent in a carry-on. I just presumed it was impossible so it didn't even occur to me. However, it's conceivable that barriers of entry are actually a good thing: "You most be at least this skilled in improvising travel to show up". Kinda like how destination weddings ensure that only those who really want to spend the bucks show up---in this case have the skills. This could unintentionally have contributed to the vibe of the event in a good way.

I've been contemplating an ERE Midwestfest ... but it would happen by reserving a bunch of camping spots in a state park and then getting together "at-will" in a semi-organized fashion. This might exclude people who don't have camping gear (minimalists!); people who don't want to sleep in a tent, or can't easily get to the out-of-place campground (need car or willingness to bike 100 miles), so I'm not so sure whether it's a good idea.

As another example, the walking groups/organizations I belong to usually arrange trips as "$3000 all-inclusive trips to exotic location and staying at the Hilton", typical retire-approach (also see Chautauqua in FIRE circles). This is a different kind of barrier to entry.

I'm not "for" or "against" barriers, but I think it has an effect.

I wonder what the minimum viable size for a fest is? We had 20. There was some speculation that 40 would be too much, too easy to get lost in the crowd. What's too few / what's the minimum critical mass? Could 5 people with the right event design have a similarly positive experience? More intimate less diversity... worth experimenting with I think.

Standard ERE meetups seems to cap out at 10-12. Beyond that people start fracturing into groups, e.g. "this side of the table" and "that side of the table". Based on experience with physics conferences and multiday workshops, I think there's a strong correlation between number of people and number of days. It's best if it's possible to connect/reconnect 2-3 times over the event. If you only ever interact with anyone person one time, adding days would just be more of the same. This would be the situation if there are too many people for the number of days. As an unfortunate side-effect of such a situation (conference-style where the number of people far outnumber the number of people), there's a tendency for people who already know each other from previous meetups to stick/cling together and newbies being left at the perimeter. In short, the more people you add, the more days you need for the same experience.

[theanimal]

I've been contemplating an ERE Midwestfest ... but it would happen by reserving a bunch of camping spots in a state park and then getting together "at-will" in a semi-organized fashion. This might exclude people who don't have camping gear (minimalists!); people who don't want to sleep in a tent, or can't easily get to the out-of-place campground (need car or willingness to bike 100 miles), so I'm not so sure whether it's a good idea.

I think it would be an excellent idea. I don't see any of those as substantial barriers.

There were 4-5 people who didn't have a tent for the event and most of those folks were able to borrow a tent from someone else. @Quadalupe slept in Serenity and @mathiverse in @AH's studio. If there was a more serious need for tents,others could bring more (for example we have 2 and access to borrowing far more). There are also gear co ops and some libraries that rent out gear equipment.

I don't know the exact number, but there was more than one person that was campings for the first time. This is speculative, but I'd figure the number of people on here that aren't willing to sleep in a tent is very low. Those people may also have other options such as sleeping in a car/van/RV. Make the event interesting (ie have a place where ERE people can hang out for multiple days) and people will come.

Lastly, not everyone drove their own car there and their was a lot of cooperation in terms of getting people to the event. @Jean flew into Las Vegas and picked up @sodatrain in Barstow, @mF picked us up from the trailhead, @AH picked up @Quadalupe at LAX and @grundomatic and @dustbowl carpooled from Arizona. Those are just a few examples. Southern California is not a high density ERE population, Chicago is, with double digit forumites living in the metro area alone. Go out another 2-4 hrs and you add another 10. There is also closer access via public transport than the Mojave desert. All that to say , I don't see people getting there as a problem.

It's worth reiterating there was a signal group established to chat about these details for anyone who expressed a possibility/serious interest in attending the event. This allowed a lot of these details to be worked out fairly easily.

[jacob]

It's worth reiterating there was a signal group established to chat about these details for anyone who expressed a possibility/serious interest in attending the event. This allowed a lot of these details to be worked out fairly easily.

I think this might have been a bug rather than a feature in that this Signal/organizing activity was hidden on the darknet. I wrote off attending early on because the only apparent solution to me was a 2x5 day car ride from Chicago going back and forth, alternatively, flying with checked-in camping gear and lugging this into destinations unknown, which seemed like a relatively overwhelming problem to be solved (I don't have personal experience with this particular form of travel.). In retrospect, I would/could have flown in with a carry-on bivouac system insofar I had known about the social/technical support available.

Not as much as a complaint as a bullet point for future events.

[Scott 2]

I wrote off attending early on because the only apparent solution

Axel offered the Amtrak from Chicago to Barstow in the 3rd post of this thread. Along with pickup service, which if I guessed his address right, is a 2 hour drive each way. One could get the Amtrak credit card sign up bonus, and use points to get there at almost zero cost. Amtrak is very liberal with luggage policies.

For the person willing to spend days in the desert without AC or flush toilets (not me!), that looks like a fairly doable option?

[jacob]

For the person willing to spend days in the desert without AC or flush toilets (not me!), that looks like a fairly doable option?

In hindsight, I totally agree. The public information was just outside my "travel Overton WL window".

[rube]

Interesting. Actual experiences seems to be more important than intelligence in this example I guess. And perhaps that's very often the case?

I believe this ERE fest 2023 triggered quite a group of people, myself included, who are interested to organize/visit an ERE fest in 2024, 2025. Depending how things go (where, when, family etc.) I might be able to provide some support with the organization. Preferable I would be able to combine it with a biketour

[jacob]

Interesting. Actual experiences seems to be more important than intelligence in this example I guess. And perhaps that's very often the case?

I think so! Theory and practice. Systemic, analytic, or experiental intelligence translating into a shared experience to generate a recurrent tradition.

I think recurrence is important to establish relations. Gotta meet more than once. Three to five times or more?

Preferable I would be able to combine it with a biketour

Me too ... but organizing a multi-day bike meetup is even rarer, .. ? Long shot---throwing it out there---anyone interested in doing a https://www.adventurecycling.org/routes-and-maps/ ... Great Loop, anyone?

[guitarplayer]

For a bunch of people some of whom likely at most only barely know each other in real life but have common interests and go on a multi day cycling adventure, this festival will serve as an inspiration

https://www.sisak.info/2023/08/16/selek ... -festival/

https://www.festivalfinder.eu/festivals ... m-festival

Maybe @Crusader will be able to get more from it as some of the content might be in Croatian. It’s a great format this .

[rube]

Me too ... but organizing a multi-day bike meetup is even rarer,

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of a specific bike meetup, more that I could combine an ERE meetup with a bike tour by myself or for anyone who would want to join.

Long shot---throwing it out there---anyone interested in doing a https://www.adventurecycling.org/routes-and-maps/ ... Great Loop, anyone?

I don't know what the "great loop" is, is it just one of these loops in the USA or is it a specific route? I might be interested if we can plan it further ahead, like 2nd half 2024 later.

[jacob]

I don't know what the "great loop" is, is it just one of these loops in the USA or is it a specific route? I might be interested if we can plan it further ahead, like 2nd half 2024 later.

It's a specific route, https://rideillinois.org/maps/grand-ill ... ail-guide/ (see 36pg pdf inside link) It takes about a week. Very specific, so maybe too much Venn-non-overlap; required: ability to sit on a bike for 7 days + bringing a touring bike + willingness to do so. OTOH, it's likely quite the bonding experience and the route is well-documented.

[avalok]

It's a specific route, https://rideillinois.org/maps/grand-ill ... ail-guide/ (see 36pg pdf inside link) It takes about a week.

FYI to others, you will need a VPN to access that link outside the US. No idea why.

How does wild camping work for something like this in the States; is the law quite lax? I imagine it varies across states quite a bit. In the UK it is illegal unless you're in parts of Scotland or Dartmoor, I know mainland Europe is better, pretty sure it is legal in France.

[rube]

Yes, I needed a VPN as well to access, but that worked.
If we can plan about a year or more ahead, I am interested and I expect I would be able to arrange it all.

I'm curious if and how many others are interested as well!

[jacob]

How does wild camping work for something like this in the States; is the law quite lax?

Free camping on public land is mostly a west of the Mississippi thing. Otherwise, it's some distribution of either getting shot, arrested, deported, or away with it. IMHO, it seems like a lot of risk just to save $12/night.