How to explain WL6+ systems?

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Slevin
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How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by Slevin »

In reference to the ERE wheaton scale viewtopic.php?t=8103&start=460 and many other conversations going on around here at the moment, does anyone have a halfway decent way to share something like a WL6/7 system? Obviously it is not a skin deep object (exactly replicable by someone just reading it, nor should someone want to replicate it exactly), but providing an decisioning framework example may be of some benefit to other people wanting to develop and or tune their approaches with some new views.

The permaculturists use system diagrams like this:
Image

Or this:
Image

So maybe a good basic answer is to start with a pictorial diagram, then start talking about core nodes on the map and work from the most important to least important nodes, and how they fit together?

I'm also assuming something like a WL7 system would be a system of systems, i.e. a web of goals of systems, where inputs from one lead into another and they become complicated to detangle from the viewpoint of the outside observer without them undestanding the web of goals guiding the meta-system (to repeat one of our most common memes - bike to the grocery store to exercise + transport yourself + build your skills of bike repair + build your cooking skills, etc), so putting this in context to explain to an outside observer is n times more complicated than a single system -- but this assumption could be entirely wrong.

Any guidance here is well appreciated, thanks!

mathiverse
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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by mathiverse »

First, I'll plug the Yields and Flow thread which discusses WL6 and a bit of WL7+ (great read if anyone hasn't seen it yet): viewtopic.php?t=10897

And for the particular question you asked, Daylen had a picture of part of his system in that thread:
daylen wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:41 pm
...

Image

...
There is at least one other diagram in the thread.

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by mathiverse »

From Axel Heyst's journal (following the below comment is more discussion of Wheaton levels that may be interesting!)
Quadalupe wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:06 pm
...

I have used my 1337 paint skills to try to make this a bit clearer:

Image

This is the low WL situation. You are only happy in the cookie cutter home, dining out often etc. You can only reach this by spending fat stacks of benjamins.

Image

This is medium WL situation. You are still only happy in your cookie cutter home, dining out, but you manage to do this more efficiently and resiliently by having multiple ways (actions) to achieve your goals (states)

Image

This is the howlie/high WL situation. You are happy in many different states *and* have multiple ways to achieve desirable states. This makes you very resilient!

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by mathiverse »

I also really liked this visualization of better or worse systems:
AxelHeyst wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:28 pm
...

What I mean is this: If you lack strategy and tactics, your "WoG" might look like this mess:
Image

As you define your purpose, your going to start pointing in the right-ish direction, but there's going to be execution turbulence (this is what I'm dealing with right now).
Image

Once you've got purpose *and* execution dialed, your WoG carrot-vector field might look like this:
Image

And here's an animation of it.
https://youtu.be/7h5g0xhP3-Q

...

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by mathiverse »

Also this chart from the ERE chart museum, maybe? It's fairly big and it still doesn't have all the flows from node to node that could be there, but I think it gives a decent idea. (Eg bodyweight training to gardening or bushcraft)
AxelHeyst wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:18 am
Skills:
Image

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mountainFrugal
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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by mountainFrugal »

Slevin wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:28 pm
does anyone have a halfway decent way to share something like a WL6/7 system?

So maybe a good basic answer is to start with a pictorial diagram, then start talking about core nodes on the map and work from the most important to least important nodes, and how they fit together?
I think this is really hard!

I think the pictorial diagrams are a great way to start. As far as I understand it a regular decision tree framework might miss the time component and the probability component which might limit further development of a system later on. Also a single web diagram of any kind is just going to be some sort of snapshot.

I took the permaculture design principles from the Oregon State Extension Course (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... m26exq5E3K) and did the same exercise with my WOG. In the permaculture course you have the constraints of a physical place you are designing for that you can overlay "transparent" layers on top of for each sub-system. This allows the designer to then come up with how each system might act fairly independently of the others. Then you can add 2 or more transparencies on top of the site plan to see how systems might fit together with one another or work against each other. The deep thought of integration comes in afterward. I took the multiple layers of my WOG starting broad and then getting more granular for both individual goals and for how they might connect to one another. This works okay because the complexity is built up over time instead of right away. A similar "site map" for your personal system might be the 24 hours in a day. viewtopic.php?p=251624#p251624 Admittedly, this series of posts might only ever really make sense to me.
Last edited by mountainFrugal on Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Slevin
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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by Slevin »

thanks @mathiverse ! The yields and flows and examples you've posted so far is close to what I'm looking for I think.

Jacob from the yields and flow thread (emphasis mine):
Yes, definitely 6 with some 7 elements. However, this is from my perspective and I'm not sure how useful examples ultimately are pedagogical speaking because different people have different frameworks (Plato's cave problem) and thus interpret examples differently. It's impossible---by construction---to learn a new framework by example. It's something one has to figure out oneself according to what makes sense, ironically, based on examples. It's ultimately a learning process in which new understand is constructed from previous experience based on previous constructions of examples based on previous earlier experience... and so on.
I guess even if not pedagogically useful to others in terms of systemic transfer, I'm still interested in the pyschotechnologies associated in mapping and creating the complex relationships, even if my own creations are only really useful explicitly to me (because writing it down can be useful in me today vs. future me examining relationships between subjects / objects / whatever in my mind).

It seems everyone is using something like a network map, which is somewhat useful in terms of breadth of relationships of things, but is less useful in terms of depth of single relationships / backups / etc. Maybe more useful when the nodes and relationship arrows are hyperlinked to deeper explanations of the things and /or relationships ? Maybe that is a standard thing people making the diagrams do but don't generally include in short form sharing with others because it is not that transferable?

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by guitarplayer »

We are such visual creatures, I just had a thought that it would be cool to try to explain it via other medium, e.g. music. Maybe @Horsewoman will read this and think of something!

WL 1 would be cacophony,
...
WL 3 pop
...
WL 6 world music
...
WL 7 fusion
...
WL \infty (what to the average crowd sounds like) cacophony

Okay it's late where I am this is not very much thought through.

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Slevin
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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by Slevin »

mountainFrugal wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:33 pm
I think this is really hard!

I think the pictorial diagrams are a great way to start. As far as I understand it a regular decision tree framework might miss the time component and the probability component which might limit further development of a system later on. Also a single web diagram of any kind is just going to be some sort of snapshot.

I took the permaculture design principles from the Oregon State Extension Course (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... m26exq5E3K) and did the same exercise with my WOG. In the permaculture course you have the constraints of a physical place you are designing for that you can overlay "transparent" layers on top of for each sub-system. This allows the designer to then come up with how each system might act fairly independently of the others. Then you can add 2 or more transparencies on top of the site plan to see how systems might fit together with one another or work against each other. The deep thought of integration comes in afterward. I took the multiple layers of my WOG starting broad and then getting more granular for both individual goals and for how they might connect to one another. This works okay because the complexity is built up over time instead of right away. A similar "site map" for your personal system might be the 24 hours in a day. viewtopic.php?p=251624#p251624 Admittedly, this series of posts might only ever really make sense to me.
My brain hurts from trying to understand your meta system. BUT this is actually super helpful, and I think the OSU PDC is probably a decent guide into one way to design these systems independently and then let the systems start layering together into a meta system of systems based on a web of goals (WoG being the generator function needed to start the generation of the meta system). Interesting to wonder what happens if the WoG shifts (as I find that might be something that happens often). Maybe only one or two layers need to shift, but I do wonder how much the propagation will end up shifting the other layers as well, and if it might be a non-linear effect in some cases.

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by mountainFrugal »

Slevin wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 6:53 pm
My brain hurts from trying to understand your meta system.
Mine too! haha!
Slevin wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 6:53 pm
Interesting to wonder what happens if the WoG shifts (as I find that might be something that happens often). Maybe only one or two layers need to shift, but I do wonder how much the propagation will end up shifting the other layers as well, and if it might be a non-linear effect in some cases.
Doing regular course corrections based on interacting with the real world is bound to shift things around, but my general heading would be similar for the same general time-frame of 5 years into the future. Each of my layers and the interactions between different sections are just possibilities and are not hard coded. They are the possible positive connections between the different ways I want to spend my time. The drawings are a snapshot of what that might look like. In the end the exercise benefited me much more than it can anyone else. Once you do it once, it will get easier and easier. I have dealt with a number of major changes in my life so far I am not worried about dealing with inevitable future changes. I can make a new map if my house burns down, my partner leaves me, my bank account is drained, I have a major accident, etc. It would be very hard, but still doable. If there were compounded worst case scenarios all occurring at the same time... back to meditating all day and eating beans and rice and drinking tea.

Edit: since joining the forum in May of 2021 I have spent at least a few hundred hours thinking/reading about this building off any ideas or mental models I had in the past. I still cannot articulate it succinctly in writing or drawing how I currently view it. I am still grappling with it and may be completely wrong. Hopefully I am at least in the ball park of being wrong instead of not even wrong. haha.

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by AxelHeyst »

I think diagramming exercises like the PDC examples are useful for analyzing an individual’s system. I’ve used it to try to make sense of my system, and could use it to try to make sense of someone else’s system. But this is at the level of example, of observation of *effect*. Which is great if that’s what you’re going for, but this path skirts along the edge of Mt Confusing the Map for the Territory. Like if someone were to look at Jacob’s map and think that in order to be WL8.5 you have to own a house and make clocks.

To me, the first question to get clear on is are you trying to explain What decisions have been made, or How those decisions have been made? As the WL’s describe mindset, the latter is the most interesting question to get at. I think actually a lot of work has been done on the forum coming up with examples of the kinds of decisions one makes at different levels, but it seems to me (might be just part of my cognitive weaknesses/style) that somewhat less work has been done attempting to describe How the decisions are made. The most concise descriptions are in the book, of course, but building on and around that can be fruitful.

This is my attempt to create a decision tree for wl5:
Image
hires

The following are attempts I made to sketch WoG diagrams, which was one of my first MMG projects. I made a new WoG every week. My conclusion for the project was that I learned a great deal from the effort, mostly that attempting to diagram a full WoG is maybe impossible, but doing the exercise was valuable to appreciate how complex a real WoG actually is.
Image
HiRes

Image
hires

Attempting to make these diagrams made me appreciate Jacob’s comment that have a set of simple heuristics is powerful. For me, I think putting effort into clearly articulating one’s heuristics goes a lot further and is more robust than attempting to diagram a WoG.

To me, the promise of diagramming my WoG was that I would be able to “see” it all at once and “grok it”… like Neo in the matrix or something. My efforts to diagram convinced me that a) I’m not The One and b) therefore I can’t see the whole thing. Instead, I think it terms of running all aspects of my life through my heuristics filter as often as possible. Very much like Boyd’s OODA loop, and my ERE heuristics live inside my Orientation and Decision blocks.

To me, making explicit the heuristics is the same as explaining WLn.

WL6 Heuristics:
>Take a node/activity/fact of my life for consideration.
>What is it that I really value from this activity - what are the positive 1st and second order effects? (e.g. I don’t like “DH/FR mountain biking”, I like “physical exertion and risk, being outdoors, technical mastery, and being with friends, and adventure”.)
>What inputs are required to achieve this yield? What are the 1st and 2nd order effects? (Pretty much need a vehicle to get bike to trailhead, bikes are expensive, broken parts (bike and personal flesh bag) are expensive to fix, etc).
>Are the negative first and second order effects acceptable? (“Damn, self, owning a truck is kind of a lot. And I can’t see how to FR/DH for less than N$/yr realistically, and there’s always the chance I’ll get speared in the femoral by a snapped handlebar…”)
>Is there a different activity that results in the yields I desire with fewer negative effects? (“Well, hell, climbing has lower capx AND opx, it’s totally possible to dirtbag around bumming rides and that actually increases the sense of adventure….”)
.A heuristic I’ve only starting thinking about recently is “What is this activity missing? What positive yield do I care about that this activity isn’t bringing me?” One obvious example is “potential for remuneration”. Climbing almost definitely has no potential for remuneration for one such as I, and I should be factoring that in when I run heuristics. Another is “alignment with mission.”
.Generally, I see negative effects as waste or friction, and I try to minimize or avoid them. At this level of thinking, my “hammer” is to typically cease that activity (e.g. sell my DH/FR bike) and replace the node with some other activity.

At WL6, I can really only think one node/activity at a time. It takes effort to really think through each activity, each node, and so I can’t hold more than one in my head a time, typically. At most I’ll be able to see a connection of yields or flows from one node/activity to another.

The promise of wl7, as I understand it, is that I’ll have reached a level of competence and internalization of WL6 thinking so instead of having to focus to see the “guts” of each node, I intuitively do WL6 thinking and decision making, and my cognition will “lift” to the level of perceiving the yields and flows of all the nodes together. I assume it will start to come together in “chunks” - e.g. I’ll have three or so nodes that I’ve spent a lot of time working on the internals of, that all sort of relate to each other, and all of a sudden I’ll realize I’m thinking of all three of those together as “a thing” rather than “three things”, and I will make decisions for the sake of The Chunk as opposed to each of The Pieces. A mature WL7 thinker would see all the nodes in the entire system together as The Chunk, the Thing that is being Considered. (???)

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by AxelHeyst »

I’m struggling to really answer OPs question, though. I think what I’m getting at is that the best way I can currently think of explaining a higher WL system is to describe the set of heuristics used, and then describe the individual’s values and/or stoke. The interaction between heuristics (which multiple people could share the exact same set of) and individual values/stoke (which will be unique like a fingerprint) is what produces any given specific System/WoG.

So right now my System is ~the WL6 heuristics I listed above, plus my values/stoke, which are roughly
.Dirtbaggery
.Novel Experiences and exploring different ways of living/experiencing/being in the world
.Physical challenge involving a sweet spot of risk
.Building/making/designing
.Figuring out how to lend a hand on the Lifeboat Flotilla
.Filling in all the gaps in my knowledge and skills (economics, politics, physics, making hooch, sewing stuff…)
.Rewilding/regeneration
.Depth/focus
.Community engagement / servant leadership
….

This approach might be the equivalent of sharing a recipe?

And this relates to the other diagram I made…:
Image
Hires

Hmm. I feel like it could use the insertion of a block representing the heuristics. Although maybe at this point I’m just creating an individualized ooda loop straight up.

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by jacob »

Like a box of LEGO...

WL1-5 buys models ready made.
WL6 assembles their own models but they're still kept at separate kits.
WL7 puts all the pieces from all the models in one pile and builds a set of new models until they run out of pieces. To restart, models are taken apart again and rebuilt in new ways.
WL8 is turning previous models into new models by moving pieces around between the models.
WL9 takes their LEGO over to the other kids (or adults) in order to increase the number of pieces, models, and building rate.

If this sounds simple, just substitute in laptop or bicycle instead of LEGO. The tricky part in drawing a WOG is that "adult" systems involve more than just one dimension (playing) or kind of capital (play capital). There are several different kinds of capital, e.g. financial, technical, ecological, social, ...

These each have WL scale. WL1-5 buys each capital as a finished product. WL6 starts "yielding" the capital as a producer. WL7 integrates the different kinds of capital together. It is this integration that turns WOGs into a giant mess when depicted graphically. Permaculture diagrams only track 1 variable at a time (calories or water) but a WOG will have five+ variables.

Perhaps one way to do it would be draw one variable only but on "glass panes". Separately these panes would look disconnected, but as you overlay more or more the WOG takes form (you grasp the idea) ... until you've added all of them and it again looks like a mess?

When I was doing astrophysics, I was simulating complex systems and it was very much the same problem. Hundreds of variables (~200 IIRC) in hundreds (103) of zones for a total of 20000 stocks and 20000^2 potential flows over a timescale range of about 7 orders of magnitude. You could never have drawn this diagram or even programmed (hardcoded) it directly. A bug like a "+" that should have been a "-" would be fatal. Instead there were translations from "human equations" into the matrices... not completely unlike a compiler that was made part of the program in order to "softcode" the physics leaving it to the "compiler" to create the necessary mathematics. In this metaphor, what you'd want to draw is not the matrix but the various compilers which are like the heuristics that AH described above.

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by mountainFrugal »

jacob wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:08 am
Perhaps one way to do it would be draw one variable only but on "glass panes". Separately these panes would look disconnected, but as you overlay more or more the WOG takes form (you grasp the idea) ... until you've added all of them and it again looks like a mess?
The panes of glass or transparency analogy is a good one. You could randomize how you see the panes of glass and in what combinations to come up with new connections. Not that you have to do all of them, but it is a good exercise to get this part of your brain thinking. How might these different areas of my life interact in the form of a project? It is easy to list a goal-by-goal overlap for most combinations if you want. It gets harder to track if you have 3 or more. Randomize your goals to sample a good collection of goals and come up with potential projects serving 3, 4, or 5 goals simultaneously while also thinking about waste streams.

Make a list of your goals and number them. Use one of the randomization methods below to print to a terminal or draw numbers from a hat. Order your drawn goals on a piece of paper or text editor and try to come up with projects that overlap 3 or more. Some of my own examples follow and a few turned into actual projects I am actively working on for my current projects.

## planet-1 #w hat my partner and I call our shared space
## finance-2
## fitness-3
## drawing-4
## music-5
## job-6
## essentialism-7
## writing-8
## programming-9
## van-10
## flyfishing-11
## fastpacking-12
## nutrition-13
## personal-14
## social-15

``` python
from random import sample
list1 = [range(1, 16, 1)]
print(list1)
print(sample(list1, 4)) # for 4 goals
```

```R
sample(1:15, 4, replace=FALSE) # for 4 goals
```

```analog
scraps of paper
write out goals on separate small scraps
hat
pull scraps from hat
```

##3x
programming--flyfishing--job --> Python database for environment and data variables
nutrition--minimalism--programming --> database with favorite ingredients, recommender system
nutrition--drawing--planet --> drawing all the ingredients for each of the meals we eat, source and final

##4x
finance--social--writing--essentialism --> writing letters to people on homemade cards
nutrition--writing--van--drawing --> Illustrated cookbook about vanlife/athlete nutrition

## 5x
van-nutrition-fitness-personal-fastpacking --> nutrition bars in pressure cooker
fastpacking-nutrition-writing-drawing-job --> bike commuting full load, blog post, drawing of items, nutrition for that ride
programming-social-job-personal-essentialism --> personal social network graph

## 6x
I found diminishing returns after 5, but have at it in your own web of goals.

*modified from an early journal entry: viewtopic.php?p=242959#p242959

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by AxelHeyst »

Found these on my hard drive - by the timestamps, I apparently made them in June of last year. I think I never posted them because I wasn't sure that sketching decision trees for Wl6+ was useful, and also because I don't think I grok L7 thinking, but anyways, here's some grist:

Image
Hires

Image
Hires
(^typo - should read "WL6>7 barrier")

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by mountainFrugal »

Thank you for adding this grist! The pieces that are harder to model in this way (as far as I understand it) are the time component, the probability component, and the probability into the future component. Here is me trying to add my understanding based on your decision trees.

1) The WOG is not a static thing and should be able to interact with the world as it is right now and as new things emerge (internally/externally). You have constant iteration at the end...yeah! iterate over time with new information!

2) There might be a difference in time that is harder to account for depending on when you did this exercise (e.g. seasons of the year out to regular human aging out to climate change driven migration of humans). If we are doing this in the summer, we also have to account for winter, or vice versa (simple example). If we are doing this as healthy young individuals, we also need to think about effects compounded over time. Example, I do not plan to be running ultras when I am in my 70s (although that would be great), but I do plan on still being able to XC ski and ride bikes all other health effects aside. Most of the other activities I am interested in can be done from a chair and desk in front of the fire (researching, writing, fly-tying, drawing, etc.). Maybe the classic wholesome activities of "traditional" retirement are there for a reason... they have included a regular human aging component that scales well with physical and mental decline?

3) What about goals that rely on a probability*? What is the probability threshold to be included? How does the probability increase or decrease over time? It could be easy for the 90%+ prob events to help guide us for goal setting, but what about 70? or 50?. Or what about the probability of positive interactions of nodes? They may not be directly connected doing these exercises, but in reality have a higher probability of interacting creating a higher likelihood of serendipity. Hypothetical example**: I run/ride races and volunteer for local races/events. I meet like minded people. After chatting with a few volunteers they are involved in another community project that needs help writing a grant. I help with the grant, it gets funded. Then a larger local organization needs help grant writing and can pay a little stipend... etc. It is having a wider web of goals and transferable skills that could potentially unlock more serendipity. If I only know how to program, then all that I can offer is to be the webmaster would be the simplified specialist limitation in this example. It is really hard to know ahead of time how a broader skill set would play-out, other than it likely will! I think this is what Jacob was getting at in his Group 1 vs. Group 2 people thread. viewtopic.php?t=3509

* not thinking you can actually model this...rely on heuristics for inclusion or not...but how to choose?
** easier to think of examples from my own WOG at this point. Hope to get to a stage of understanding to generalize

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Re: How to explain WL6+ systems?

Post by Slevin »

@jacob, @axelheyst, and @mountainfrugal, These responses are amazing and incredibly helpful to informing my toolmaking (even if they make my brain hurt a lot)

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