V02 Max Challenge

[black_son_of_gray]

[This thread seems to be where most people on the forum are talking about it, so I'm posting it here, and I'll make a tie-in to athletic performance.]

Regarding nasal breathing...

Very early on in the pandemic period e.g. late 2019-early 2020, I came across the topic of nasal breathing. Specifically, there is a book called "The Oxygen Advantage" by Patrick McKeown (https://www.youtube.com/@OxygenAdvantage), which I stumbled upon and read. Up until that point, I hadn't really thought much about nasal breathing other than to say that my nose was usually pretty stopped up and as a result I was typically breathing though my mouth. Like just about everyone, when I went running, I would breath through my mouth.

I like to experiment on myself, so naturally, I tried to shift to 100% nasal breathing. Some interesting results followed:

1) There are nasal unblocking exercises that basically take you from stopped up nose to a relatively clear nose in a matter of minutes (see "popular" on above youtube). Mindblowing for me.

2) Before my converting to nasal breathing, I found that when I went to bed, and was lying there waiting to fall asleep, I needed to clear my throat a lot. This was something that had relatively recently developed (within a year) but was turning into a regular thing, and quite an annoying one at that. Nasal breathing (and nasal breathing while sleeping) completely and immediately stopped that.

3) Before nasal breathing, when I went for a run, something kind of weird would happen where I would feel a little breathless (subtle, but noticeable) during the first mile or so of the run. My suspicion looking back on it is that I might have been having a mild exercise-induced asthma kind of thing. When I run breathing only through my nose, this doesn't happen.

4) So I started running while 100% nasal breathing. The biggest issue I had was that my nose would be so wet! I would literally take a tissue on my runs so than after the first 10-15 minutes I could blow out all the buildup. Other than that, it was fine (although at that time I was probably running way too hard on most of my runs). Now, when I go on runs, I have zero moisture issues with my nose.

5) I am now really good at doing breath-holds, particularly while walking or even running through large groups of people. I'm sure my CO2 tolerance has improved quite a bit. Thanks pandemic!

Fitness-related: I'm basically on full nasal-breathing autopilot now 100% of the time unless I am sprinting. A few years ago, I did a little bit of a nasal-breathing-running-physiology academic paper deep dive, which only turned up a relatively few papers (the vast majority of people mouth-breathe when running), but the take-home message was something like: nasal breathing is just as good perfomance-wise as mouth breathing when it comes to running. It does feel a little different though, and the unaccustomed runner being forced to do it on a physiology rig + treadmill is not going to like it. In particular, what I find interesting is that nasal breathing is more efficient, but feels harder. It's more efficient because more oxygen is actually extracted out of each breath for use by the body. (The corollary is that the same runner at the same speed - so, same energy output - breathes less frequently when nasal breathing). It feels harder because there is much less air resistance breathing through the mouth than through two tiny little nostrils.

Okay, now VO2max related: So I've been doing roughly hour-long runs off and on for a while now (over a year) doing only the nasal breathing and trying to stay in Zone 2* (that is, pre-lactate buildup, which I've been guesstimating for me that means keeping HR around mid-140s) then doing some strides at the end. What I'm kind of amazed by is how easily and slowly I am breathing while doing the Zone 2. It's a respiratory rate that is pretty slow - faster than rest, but not all that much moreso. When I sleep my respiratory rate is something like 14 breaths/min, which is apparently normal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_rate). I'm pretty sure it's much lower when I'm awake, <10. So when I'm running I'm back up there at maybe 15 breaths per minute? Basically, while I run I am breathing like most people breathe just sitting on the couch or even asleep. I have no idea if this is abnormal or typical for the rest of you exercisers. Alas, it may have nothing to do with nasal breathing...

Of course, it could be that I am super super fit. (I am not)
Or, it could be that I am really running somewhere in Zone 1, but whenever I've done max HR tests, I've never gotten past ~180bpm (ironically, a good match with 220-age), so mid 140s is 80% of that. (Caveat, this is on an optical watch, so you know...)

How many of you have tinkered with 100% nasal breathing?
How has that worked out for you (what was that journey like)?
Have you experienced any performance advantages (or disadvantages)?
And I get it, Zone 2 is supposed to feel physically easy, but when you are in Zone 2, is your breathing like super easy and casual?

*Some would call this Zone 3. The point is, I can carry on this level of energy expenditure, with no heart rate creep, for at least 70-80 minutes.

[ebast]

I'd be interested in seeing the papers relating to performance if you still have them handy. Seems one implication of your research that if nasal breathing can be as efficient (overall) as mouth breathing, it questions the nose breathing test so popular here. Or, perhaps it's more considered to say that test could be valid due to the perceived nasal-breathing difficulty threshold (to mouth-breathers) nicely lining up with Zone 2/Zone 3 lactic threshold, but if you get too good at it (nasal breathing), that threshold will drift up into Zone 3 like you said. Beyond explicit practice, how would you get too good at it? I dunno, maybe doing nasal breathing tests for as long as I can to make sure I stay in Zone 2....

I'm also curious specifically about the net effect behind nose breathing being "more efficient" while "feeling harder". The efficiency you're mentioning is efficiency per breath, but one could also think about efficiency per energy expenditure. If it "feels harder" because of the increased air resistance and bottleneck effects there, I assume that'd mean somewhat obviously from the physics here you have to pay up more energy expenditure (calories) per breath.

If so, nasal breathing would be: more oxygen per more-expensive breath. Whereas mouth breathing would be less oxygen but cheaper breaths. I would imagine the papers compare how these net out properly for various duration exercise and am only going from your summary but it'd be helpful to see analyses on how those balance out, as from my overly-simple formulation there it could still possible that mouth breathing is more efficient overall. Or nasal breathing.

Do you know if people are coaching nasal breathing?

In response to your questions, I don't know my breathing rates but will watch those now. I was pleased to hear the other questions, as it is something I've been interested in since I think I am doing a better job maintaining pace by getting my breath down first before telling my legs to run faster (or, very occasionally, slower). To change pace, I will actually spend 5-10 seconds getting my breath where it is comfortable with current pace and then improving both together. Within those attempts I've observed breath to have a surprisingly non-monotonic relation to pace as there are interesting dynamics with respect to depth of breathing and its rhythm & synchronization with pace, as well as the nasal/mouth loading, puraka/rechaka split, etc... Granted, a lot of this starts to feel more like meditation practice than a proper athletic exertion. So, my Zone 2 breathing, as far as I know, was marked to me as it can seem quite easy and couch-like once I get it locked in well with pace. Like, really surprising how peaceful it seems while starting to move at a decent clip. That's all although as I hinted at earlier, I have been using nasal breathing as an explicit metric for keeping pace and try to maintain nasal breathing as long as I remember to, so I've probably trained it a little more than I realized. Goodhart strikes again.

(Also, on your mention of optical pulse oximetry - I did not realize how common it has become in running watches now. Last deep research I did, wherein I would have assumed they were using optical sensors I discovered many of them were estimating from pace/pulse. No longer, it seems. Will retract some of my more stupid comments on the matter. Thanks bsog.)

[C40]

How many of you have tinkered with 100% nasal breathing?
How has that worked out for you (what was that journey like)?
Have you experienced any performance advantages (or disadvantages)?
And I get it, Zone 2 is supposed to feel physically easy, but when you are in Zone 2, is your breathing like super easy and casual?

- yes this year I've focused on nasal breathing while bicycling.
- I guess it works ok. I didn't have any journey. Just started doing it. In Z1 and Z2 I'll usually breathe entirely through my nose, both in and out. I think in Z3 I'd usually exhale through my mouth. In Z4, especially closer to LTR, I'll be inhaling in through my mouth, and might use a certain rhythm with some inhales through my nose.
- I haven't experienced any noticeable performance advantage. Perhaps if I was using a power meter I'd see some.

I will note that compared to decades ago when I was new to cardiovascular exercise, while at medium and higher exertions my overall feeling of my body is more like an air pump and as I fatigue it feels more like a general entire-body feeling.. Whereas before my overall feeling of focus and exertion was more specifically related to my legs, more of the feeling and focus was related to my legs.

[mountainFrugal]

@ebast - I do think it is possible if you have a longer time-frame to get your soft tissues up for the pavement running load of a 3:20 marathon while also including various cycling activities. I think that your hack would work better if you first trained the running and then spread in the cycling, rather than trying to get there with cycling volume at the outset. Either way... you are going to be in better cardio shape with all this activity so that is always a win! .

@bsog - I have used nasal breathing for quite a long time for a few other contexts besides exercise. I first learned about it through breathing meditation techniques. This was reinforced when spending time a lot of time in the desert with rationed water. Nose breathing reduces the amount of water loss. The trick there is to have a small pebble (or similar) in your mouth to have you focus on keeping your mouth closed while you are moving. Since 2017, I have been using nose breathing during exercise to test where the end of my Zone 1 is (Uphill Athlete definition of Zones). An interesting connection to meditation is that through all that previous breath work sitting or lying down combined with body scans, running is now a meditation. Like @C40, exhales through the mouth are more common at higher intensity. A hard Zone 3 (Uphill Athlete, but same as Zone 4 LTR mentioned by C40), I do mouth breathing with occasional inhales through the nose to reset the body scan. Form is even more important at sustained harder efforts.

[black_son_of_gray]

This was reinforced when spending time a lot of time in the desert with rationed water. Nose breathing reduces the amount of water loss.

Yes! I do feel like I am less dehydrated after runs than I used to be. I imagine it doesn't matter much for <1 hr, but for long duration endurance runs, there might be an edge. If I remember correctly, performance starts to be affected with something as small as 1-2% loss of weight from water loss, right?

I will note that compared to decades ago when I was new to cardiovascular exercise, while at medium and higher exertions my overall feeling of my body is more like an air pump and as I fatigue it feels more like a general entire-body feeling.. Whereas before my overall feeling of focus and exertion was more specifically related to my legs, more of the feeling and focus was related to my legs.

Yeah, I feel that way when I exhaust myself running at faster speeds (general entire-body feeling) - it's when I'm cycling that I specifically feel tiredness in my legs. Certainly those two activities involve slightly different muscle recruitment, but it's fascinating that one vs. the other can result in different feelings of "where the tiredness" resides. One only wonders what triathlon athletes experience...

[Scott 2]

5k race PR today: 25:22

5k training PR was 26:27
Prior 5k race PR was 29:50

Instead of pacing myself, I chased someone a little faster than me. It worked really well. Steepest HR curve to date:



Getting ready this morning, I told my wife attending the race felt dumb. The Garmin already times my 5k. But I wouldn't have tried so hard alone.

It is time to back off the running, and maybe cardio in general. My v02 max estimate remains at 46. I'm sick of the elliptical. I've been nursing a tender knee for the past few weeks. And some light Achilles tendonitis for a couple months.

My strength is around 2/3 of past peaks. So I used to be 50% stronger. Maybe that gets attention. Jaw surgery is 5-8 months away. I'd like to carry extra muscle into the OR, so I have something to lose when I can't eat. There's not much left at this point.

[Smashter]

If you've got access to a concept 2 rower, you can estimate it with a maximal 2000m row.

Thanks for the tip (from Veronica's journal). I did a 2000m row this morning in 7:14. That puts my estimated V02 max at 53.

[Scott 2]

That's a great score, fast row too. Comparing to the global rankings is fun:

https://log.concept2.com/rankings

Keep in mind you've got crew athletes on there, so results are skewed. Top quartile performance is very high.

[mountainFrugal]

I did the 5k today. I just barely broke 30 minutes, which was my stretch goal. I am very happy with the result.

I knew sub-30 was possible, but I didn't attach to it.

Here is you from last year! Awesome progress @Scott 2! Stoked for you.

Also, great effort @smashter!

@bsog - Part of training for longer endurance events is still being able to perform while depleted. Fluids, salts, blood sugar, body temperature regulation... all parameters to tweek.

[ebast]

Week Total: 48mi
Long Run: 20mi

Putting in some miles now. I am enjoying my long runs because at this magnitude one can actually go places. I am not repeating training mistakes of earlier years such as trying out a distant well-regarded breakfast burrito joint mid-run. I'm avoiding breaks, maintaining pace, and directing long runs more toward exploring areas and extending terra cognita down some of the country roads and trails in the area I've never fully explored.

I had a long run last week that was 17 miles with a moderate 13.1 in there. I was somewhat rested and feeling comfortable so sped it up a bit toward the end and came away averaging under 7:30 miles which gave me a 1:38 half marathon amidst my training run. I've never raced a half marathon but am thinking tapered and with some better pacing could shave a few minutes off that for race performance in the mid 1:30s for sure. This'd be another angle to use to select a pace as I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking a lot about pacing for my race, and I am getting mildly greedy.

WOG: I was running a medium 12ish mile thing in a rural woodsy area nearby. It was quarter to six, nobody was awake, and there was still mist in the air when I noticed something running alongside me in the woods. It was a stag. We ran like that another hundred yards or so, him a bit ahead of me at which point (probably he was obstructed) he hopped out into the road and cantered in front, kind of like he was pacing me. We did that for what seemed like a minute and I don't think he was too impressed as then he bounded back into the trees and took off. Now, I appreciate he is avoiding obstacles and at some level recognizing me as a (lapsed) descendant of a long line of exhaustion hunters and it's bloody 5am-something in the morning, I'm calorie-deficient, and prone to any narrative fallacy galloping by, but I felt this sense he was coming out to show me how it's done, a little coaching maybe. I appreciate that this is a VO2-max thread, and I should probably be posting in the Plotkin thread (in which case the average post length of both would go down), so I'll just note that I checked pace while following the deer and I was hoofing it, sub 6:00, a few hundred meters, so a pseudo VO2 rate of maybe 42; adjusting common VDOT estimation for a ungulate quadruped (divide by 2) I gotta figure he was maybe 20, not even breaking a sweat.

[Smashter]

@scott2 that’s a cool site! My time puts me at 7th in my state in my age bracket for the 2000m. Now I really want to break the top 5, look what you’ve done. I wonder what gains can be had by actually caring about my form, I have very little experience using a rowing machine.

Part of training for longer endurance events is still being able to perform while depleted. Fluids, salts, blood sugar, body temperature regulation... all parameters to tweek.

And when all else fails, you can do as David Goggins does when he runs out of water on training runs in 100+ degree heat (from his most recent book)

My hydration plan was the same one I’d used on long runs in the Tropics back in my military days. Whenever I got thirsty, I’d lick my motherfucking lips.

@ebast that's a cool story. I used to see deer when out running but never ran alongside one like that. Lol at calculating his V02 rate.

[Scott 2]

I wonder what gains can be had by actually caring about my form, I have very little experience using a rowing machine.

If you mess with the display, you can see the force curve on each stroke. You can also connect a heart rate strap to the monitor. Those can be useful for experimenting with rowing styles. I'm far from an expert, but this is what I found.

Tweaking foot plate, fan resistance and stroke rate gave me maybe 5-10%. What works best has changed over time too.

When I was stronger, I put the feet low, set the fan high, and pulled it like a deadlift. SPM was around 25.

Now I have the feet high, fan low and pull fast. More like a squat. SPM is around 34. I get more of the score from my cardio. I don't have the power for a low cadence anymore.

Height effects things too. A taller person pulls slower and has less forgiving leverages. I think most of the form videos are biased towards tall athletes, since that's the crew body type. Trying to imitate them tripped me up at first.

Before running distracted me, I wanted to earn the million miles rowed T-shirt from concept 2. Pretty much what it sounds like. But I haven't seen carry over between the two. A good elliptical is a better cross training option, imo. More specific, easier on the joints, less chafing.

[Smashter]

Now I really want to break the top 5

I did it this afternoon! 7:02. And that was after doing my heaviest squats ever yesterday as part of a full body workout. (embarrassing edit update: I jumped the gun. A quick re-look at the charts shows I am actually 6th. Still proud of the effort)

@scott2 thanks for the tips but I implemented exactly 0 of them, ha. I don't have any illusions that rowing will ever be a big part of my workout regimen, so I'm content to just let it rip for now. I fear that if I start going down the tweaking and optimizing rabbit hole it will rapidly get less fun.

I had no idea what a killer arm workout rowing sprints are. Though that could be in large part because of my bad form.

[Scott 2]

I was psyched the first time I broke 8 minutes. Approaching 7 on your second try is fantastic!

[mountainFrugal]

I did it this afternoon! 7:02.

Damn! Awesome time @smashter! I am very happy for you, but I am sad for future mF when he attempts another max effort. Your damn long basketball legs (I assume!).

[Smashter]

Ha, thanks. If it makes you feel any better I am tired at the mere idea of trying to keep up with you on a trail run.

I am actually only 6 feet tall, which I don't consider to be too long legged, but I suppose it's all relative. I feel like my performance is more about general strength and the ability to go deep into the pain locker.

My 6'4 brother rowed on the amateur crew team in college. When I excitedly told him my time he congratulated me but also made it known that he did ~30 seconds better in college. My first instinct is to try to chase down that time, but I'll probably have to let the 19 year old version of my brother have this one

[mountainFrugal]

I feel like my performance is more about general strength and the ability to go deep into the pain locker.

Yeah! Apologies if my post implied otherwise with your leg length. haha. Did you ask your brother what his CURRENT score is?

[jacob]

How about the 100m ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVl0Zt-kZys ) this being the exact opposite of VO2max?

Context: The strongman-youtubeSphere has made a thing out of going around breaking random world records of ordinary puny humans. Also see Eddie Hall.

[Smashter]

@jacob whoa, that was cool. What an absolute beast.

[ebast]

Week Total: 47mi
Long Run: 18mi

Need to keep my posting cadence up with my running cadence as race is getting closer. Was away for some work of various sorts and had the opportunity this time to do a long run through a charming city by a bay. A consolidation week: long run a bit shorter but had some faster miles in there. It turns out running is just a lovely way to see a city. Even one you've lived in. Also turns out an excellent technique to hone the ability to plot any city from memory by its hills. (Overall experience, though, I suppose I'd advocate cycling for a better pace/rate-of-new-sights and low cost of inserting spontaneous jaunts. [Death] Marching, even with proper homeotelic rucking of luggage is right out.)

In my experience, which lately has consisted of an awful lot of the same routes and a good deal of running around trees, just the first 3 mile downtown warmup was mind-blowing (if not quite pace-setting) in novel stimuli, although maybe not quite as maximized as if I didn't start at 4:45 in the frigging morning. I started with a 5 mile loop through their big park there and only came across one other jogger on my way out. (We bonded.) The main running routes didn't really start filling up until 7 at least. But lovely experience, lots to see, some decent elevation, and high accumulation of plenty of jogger chatter fodder to talk up the locals, who in my opinion are represented by a good portion of true mountain goats. I am thinking I will adopt this as a regular habit when traveling