The Education of Axel Heyst

[daylen]

You have probably seen it, but I just found this IC map: https://www.ic.org/directory/

Regional density of IC's probably correlates pretty well with the percentage of the population at green or above in SD, or like 4.5+ in Kegan. There are also still many unintentional communities intact (i.e. UC's) throughout the world that are slowly transitioning into more explicit IC's. It's difficult for communities to survive in regions transitioning from blue to orange but perhaps communities will become more commonplace again as these regions transition to green. Communities centered at blue are more closed and rigid in their identity while communities centered at green have a more open and adaptable identity. Both being too closed and being too open can lead to instability, so having some integral identity (re)construction process at their core is essential for sustainability.

I imagine eventually some regions will reach some kind of equilibrium between densely populated / highly competitive / orange city centers and sparsely populated / highly comparative / green rural periphery. With the digital infrastructure supporting social / informative networks that move dis-satisfied people around until they become satisfied.

[AxelHeyst]

WOOOO!!! 100 PAGES YOU GUYS WE DID IT!!!

[ertyu]

An IC someone I know of which works well (through someone who lives there) is not marketed as an intentional community at all but as a trailer park. The owners serve as "benevolent planners" in the 50s economics sense of the word. Rent is kept very low. Amenities and public areas are very nice and well-maintained. Because the community itself is both cheap and good, demand is high. The owners are thus free to deliberately select for responsible, capable tenants. My friend who lives there is responsible but unambitious. While she has no children now, a pregnancy/abusive relationship situation when she was young meant she never went to college and is now limited to low-paid work - before she quit her job and took off to Australia to live with her best friend and the best friend's husband for 6 months (exact nature of arrangement undisclosed), she worked at a grocery store and was one of the few employees who genuinely cared about food safety etc. (evidenced not by her professing how much she cares, but by her constantly being horrified at various practises and pushing back against an incompetent manager who ignores them to lower immediate cost). She is intelligent, open-minded, and responsible.

The community works because the owners collect a small fee from residents but take on themselves the executive role. Residents do operate as a community, for instance, while friend was in Australia, people were looking after her cat and keeping an eye on her trailer. People also helped her repair and remodel the trailer when she first bought it. While my friend herself has no children, a gaggle of them is running around raising themselves in the common areas. Overall, my friend likes it and has good friends among the residents. It appears to work because the owners exert conscious effort to make it work.

[AxelHeyst]

I met with MMM himself at his HQ in Longmont, CO a couple days ago. He is super chill and down to earth. He was curious about my projects (fest, QH) and what's going on in the ERE world (ERE City). I came away encouraged about moving forward with efforts to bring people together. A few notes from my visit:

• The HQ is a neat space. Lots of character, nooks and crannies, big spaces and little spaces. It could easily pass as a funky third wave coffee shop with a weekend's worth of hipster styling effort, but as is it doesn't come off as pretentious. They have a 120sf tiny studio in the backyard, as well as a fire pit and a prison yard free weight set up(power rack, bench, etc).
• I was there at 1430 on a Thursday and there were three people there working (2 on laptops, one in the workshop cleaning fossils).
• He said events range from 50-100 people, with 100 being about the max they can fit.
• They haven't had any serious conflicts, except this one dude who decided he hated Pete and posted lies on the internet about him. So they kicked him out.
• Members have recently started taking ownership/initiative to set up and run events. Pete theorized this was because he'd spent a while away from the space.
• Events tend to have one "reason" for the gathering, e.g. a presentation by Jim Collins or a reading, but mostly people get together to talk and hang out. I get the sense that the vibe of events is like a chill beer garden/pub scene. Unfortunately there were no events that overlapped with my stay, otherwise I would have attended.
• There are a few online groups (meetup, facebook) which are the primary way the word gets out about events.
• He said his forums tend not to be a great source of people coming to events or joining the space. It tends to come from the wider community and other online spaces.
• No major problems with members making a mess of the space. He said every once in a while he comes in and dad modes it - sweeps, cleans up the kitchen maybe, but it sounded pretty low key.

I got the sense that the filter for members joining is pretty much just meet with Pete or one of the other owners, and as long as you're not obviously a creep and seem to have your shit basically together you can be a member.

The HQ obviously takes money to run. Dues are $50/mo. So they need enough members for it not to be a money hole for the owners. I didn't get the sense that this was an issue. MMM's fame and the lack of any similar space is, I'm guessing, enough to keep a sustainable flow of active members.

I couldn't imagine a similar space like the HQ working if the desired average WL was anything over 4 or 5. Not enough dues-paying bodies local to keep the lights on. So not a replicable model. (Amusingly, he described the FIRE community as really niche. I laughed and told him we ERE nerds thought of the Mustachians as a vast horde in comparison.)

[2Birds1Stone]

Super cool that you got to meet Pete, thank you for sharing your experiences. I've been intrigued by the Longmont HQ for quite some time, on paper it makes a lot of sense. The sheer number of people in the FIRE community that Pete's presence in Longmont drew from all over the USA is quite impressive, so it's no surprise they have no shortage of willingly paying members.

Can't wait to see QH in person. If anyone can pull off an ERE-lite version of this, it's you.

[AxelHeyst]

I've been intrigued by the Longmont HQ for quite some time, on paper it makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, one of my takeaways was "well, yeah, most people don't need much of an excuse to come hang out and chat with people who don't suck. No need to overthink it, just make a space they can come, have beer, and They Will Come."

Can't wait to see QH in person. If anyone can pull off an ERE-lite version of this, it's you.

Really psyched to meet you and Mrs 2b1s!

[Western Red Cedar]

This is great, thanks for the writeup! Considering all of the interest in building IRL community around this forum, it seems only logical to learn from the successes and missteps of MMM. Seems like he's been working on a similar project for almost a decade now.

[*]He said his forums tend not to be a great source of people coming to events or joining the space. It tends to come from the wider community and other online spaces.

I suspect this could be true for ERE too. There are so many potential overlaps with others in the local community - intellectuals, artists, naturalists, dirtbags, permies, artisans, van-lifers, tinkerers, etc...

[AnalyticalEngine]

Yeah, one of my takeaways was "well, yeah, most people don't need much of an excuse to come hang out and chat with people who don't suck. No need to overthink it, just make a space they can come, have beer, and They Will Come."

This sounds like a great approach to community building. Great write up of the MMM HQ. I've always found it to be a great space when I've been up there. A more ERE-equivalent version of it might include direct labor from all of the members instead of money, which might mean a direct copy of that model could be difficult to pull off. But I do think there's still a lot of benefit to the coworking model because it strikes a good balance between low commitment while bringing people together.

[ertyu]

Forums suffer from selection bias. It's the loners for whom the distance of a written medium provides comfort, and those who want to prey on them.* I suspect many of the abovementioned artists, dirtbags, and so forth just begin living and naturally form ties with similar-minded others in the process

* of course this is a generalization, this isn't true of all, etcetera etcetera

[AnalyticalEngine]

Another issue with forums is that the text-only nature inherently limits the types of interactions you're going to have on them. When I've been to the MMM HQ, one thing that struck me was how much that community is does that never gets posted about online. For example, they have a weekly potluck and holiday events there that you're never going to hear about on the MMM forum or in FI podcasts. I think this is because, in person, you can invite someone to go hiking or have dinner or join your project. But on a text-only forum, the only thing you can do with people is discuss things, which is just inherently more limited than an in-person gathering.

[jacob]

They have a 120sf tiny studio in the backyard, as well as a fire pit and a prison yard free weight set up(power rack, bench, etc).

I think I remember [him building/using] that from a few MMM blog posts. I didn't know that it was at MMM HQ as opposed to his personal backyard.

• They haven't had any serious conflicts, except this one dude who decided he hated Pete and posted lies on the internet about him. So they kicked him out.
• Members have recently started taking ownership/initiative to set up and run events. Pete theorized this was because he'd spent a while away from the space.

This is what I think of as the "kingpin"-problem: The tendency to latch onto an online persona (e.g. MMM vis-a-vis Pete), idealize them and take them for granted, and get disappointed when reality doesn't match expectations. The problem appears to be solvable but it does require a few conflicts to clear the air and reset expectations.

• Events tend to have one "reason" for the gathering, e.g. a presentation by Jim Collins or a reading, but mostly people get together to talk and hang out. I get the sense that the vibe of events is like a chill beer garden/pub scene. Unfortunately there were no events that overlapped with my stay, otherwise I would have attended.
• There are a few online groups (meetup, facebook) which are the primary way the word gets out about events.
• He said his forums tend not to be a great source of people coming to events or joining the space. It tends to come from the wider community and other online spaces.

I suspect this very much depends on who the target group for the events is. Using the subculture evolution model, a big event needs to target MOPs (members of the public). For example, "how to get rich with index investing" will likely draw MOPs from the surroundings. In contrast, I think of ERE Meetups as targeting the "fanatics" (which are found on the forum, people who are really into it) and ERE City as targeting the "geeks". It's important to distinguish between "members" (who live there and come back) and "visitors" (who only attend once).

The HQ obviously takes money to run. Dues are $50/mo. So they need enough members for it not to be a money hole for the owners. I didn't get the sense that this was an issue. MMM's fame and the lack of any similar space is, I'm guessing, enough to keep a sustainable flow of active members.

My model-space for similar "esoteric" clubs are based on "this place", "martial arts dojos", and "racing yachts". The ERE site actually runs at a loss unless you count royalty income from book sales. OTOH, it's pretty cheap to run---annual revenue sans books is about $450 and annual expenses in terms of hosting, admin, etc. is about $900 for a net loss of $450/year. The dojo(s) I know were similarly "sponsored" by their owner(s). I'm pretty sure they ran/run at a slight loss, partially made up for by fund-raisers, etc. This becomes particularly important if the club is paying rent for a nice location but can't find enough members to actually pay then rent. Reach>grasp-type problem. Yacht-racing was the most extreme case of this... the expectation was that the skipper/owner paid for everything with the crew contributing free labor. IIRC, I'm only aware of one case, where a crew member contributed some new spinnaker lines (very expensive rope work! Easily $500+).

I couldn't imagine a similar space like the HQ working if the desired average WL was anything over 4 or 5. Not enough dues-paying bodies local to keep the lights on. So not a replicable model. (Amusingly, he described the FIRE community as really niche. I laughed and told him we ERE nerds thought of the Mustachians as a vast horde in comparison.)

Agreed. This is why I envision ERE City working out of people's homes and garages. For example, one person might have a garage gym, another a woodworking shop, a third is doing bikes and cars. Coordination is informal. MMM HQ has/had a slack channel (I was a member once ... maybe I still am) which could be used for coordination, like "where are we hanging out today?". Basically, these "garages" (or backyards) turn into hubs that can also attract the local neighbors. It's up to anyone whether they want to be such a hub. The fact that it's informal/private also makes it easier to get rid of creeps et al. since it is after all someone's private home.

[AxelHeyst]

I think I remember [him building/using] that from a few MMM blog posts. I didn't know that it was at MMM HQ as opposed to his personal backyard.

There are at least two - the one he built in his backyard and blogged about which is 352sf, on a permanent foundation with in-slab radiant, and the one at HQ which I haven't seen online. The HQ one is 120sf which you don't need a permit for most places, it's okay to just build it and get on with life.

The hq workshop I mentioned is also a detached structure in the backyard, but it's been there for decades. I'd say it's something like 300sf.

[theanimal]

Agreed. This is why I envision ERE City working out of people's homes and garages. For example, one person might have a garage gym, another a woodworking shop, a third is doing bikes and cars. Coordination is informal. MMM HQ has/had a slack channel (I was a member once ... maybe I still am) which could be used for coordination, like "where are we hanging out today?". Basically, these "garages" (or backyards) turn into hubs that can also attract the local neighbors. It's up to anyone whether they want to be such a hub. The fact that it's informal/private also makes it easier to get rid of creeps et al. since it is after all someone's private home.

I think you guys are underestimating people's willingness to pay for something like this. I would pay the $65/mo for MMM HQ without thinking twice if it was available in my town. From speaking with others on here elsewhere, I know I'm not alone. Limiting such a group to only ERE members does hinder this idea. I think this speaks to the conflicting goals that people have with something like ERE City/ERE 2.0. Some see it as an opportunity for more community and to hang out with like minds, whereas others see it as a think tank or an opportunity to create a different version of Bell Labs. Each will result in a different framework and necessary space.

Also, I'd say having a specific, independent place where people can gather, not associated with someone's house, is a major plus. I would think that many people would be more hesitant about dropping by someone's garage whenever they want versus an independent locale like MMM HQ. There may also be a concern on the host end, with not wanting to have/wondering about people coming over at all hours.

[AxelHeyst]

I think you guys are underestimating people's willingness to pay for something like this.

I think MMMHQ is replicable in just about any decent sized city. If I lived near one, I'd sign up! I'd love to have a space like that with approximately like-minded people. I wouldn't start or co-run one, though. I'm not interested in putting that amount of effort/money/time into something that's already been done.

I think "Like MMMHQ, except everyone is WL6+" is not replicable, because there isn't a high enough density of WL6+'s anywhere. (I'd be happy to be proven wrong.) WL6+ groups/projects/spaces, for now, will have to be constructed differently.

I strongly agree that having a separate dedicated space would be a major plus. Maybe there's a way to get a space like that that doesn't rely on 50+ members at $50/mo. That would be worth some effort, if an opportunity arises. Something to keep an eye out for.

[Jin+Guice]

I think people would be willing to pay for an ERE HQ.

I think the house/ hub idea could work too though. Pluses and minuses for both.

Since it's going to take a very dedicated individual to pull this off, I don't think arguing ideals matters that much. It's going to be 1-5 visionaries pulling of their own ideas, where they want, with what's available to them.

If the city happens, I think it's going to be a collective vision based on what's available/ feasible, rather than having a bunch of options to chose from.

[jacob]

I would think that many people would be more hesitant about dropping by someone's garage whenever they want versus an independent locale like MMM HQ. There may also be a concern on the host end, with not wanting to have/wondering about people coming over at all hours.

It would be easy to coordinate this dynamically on a slack channel or similar. "Where are you guys at today?" "We're at house#8" "Cool, I'll be over in 5 mins".

Alternatively, most clubs just have a regular time slot, like Tuesday/Thursday from 5 to 8pm. Insofar the club has a dedicated space, that leads to a VERY LOW utilization rate. For example, the dojo I used to frequent was a fully converted business rental (strip mall) that had the entire floor replaced by a mat. Very very nice, but ... it was only open for some 8 hours per week. 8/168 < 5% utilization rate. Of course, one could rent out the space to other arrangements. Alternatively, the club itself could rent hours from a community center.

I remember from my dorm time (two dorms) that the "common space" was rarely occupied. Instead people met in the kitchens and hallways. Insofar anyone ventured to the common space, they could easily sit there for hours or days waiting for someone else to show up. This kind of arrangement only works if the density is high enough to sustain the network effect.

Much as there are people who are willing to pay, I bet there are also free-riders scheming on how they can save the $50/month by simply meeting in a free space elsewhere. Like, "sorry, I'm not a member, so maybe we can meet in the local park instead?!" Call me cynical, but I know ERE people The fee has to create something that is not just as easily obtainable for free.

[Jin+Guice]

$50/ month is boring. Is a dedicated space the most interesting and fun way to solve this problem? Is a network of garages? Is it a club or an entire way of life? What is the problem?

[Ego]

$50/ month is boring. Is a dedicated space the most interesting and fun way to solve this problem? Is a network of garages? Is it a club or an entire way of life? What is the problem?

I am an member of two garage type clubs. Both groups have very politically connected members as well as prominent attorneys at the helm. The clubs are 20-40 years old and would probably not be started today with the liability involved. One is a cycling club with a regular ride where people often crash and get hurt. Everyone throws a few bucks in the coffee kitty and (I believe) they use some of it to buy an umbrella policy

Someone gets their long hair caught in a fan belt or gets burnt Jay Leno style while helping out at someone else's garage fixit club, the host could be paying the bills. MMM has a gym setup. If the gym was in his garage and someone drops a bar on another person's foot, MMM could be seen as the deep pocket. Most likely is a garage meetup where someone has one beer too many, drives home, and kills someone. There is a whole area of law around this one....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_host_liability

Since most of the hosts would have relatively deep pockets, they would have to generate some funds to pay the insurance to protect their nest eggs.

[Gilberto de Piento]

For those that aren't familiar with them MMM HQ appears to be a makerspace aka a hacker space. These are in many mid sized and larger cities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackerspace

A makerspace is a type of "third place": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place.

[AxelHeyst]

Yes, I'd say mmmhq is a mixtape of coworking space, makerspace, tool lending library, gym, and community-event space.