bostonimproper's journal

[delay]

Muddling through

... Also, did I mention how tired I am? So fucking tired.

Thanks for your journal!

Being tired doesn't look like an optimal solution. Tiring yourself out for family? They will be happier with you if you're not tired. Tiring yourself for work? You're more productive when you're not tired. Tiring youself out to meet your own standards? You meet higher standards when you're not tired.

Best of luck and take promises of future promotions with a grain of salt!

[Biscuits and Gravy]

You say you’re tired, but I don’t see you saying that you’re an alcoholic or blowing up your marriage, so CONGRATULATIONS you are winning the newborn-toddler stage of momming.

Seriously, you’re doing wonderfully. You sound like such a conscientious parent. What a lucky kid y’all have.

[theanimal]

Mrs. Animal and I were right there with you until our daughter started sleeping through the night at 13 months. All you want to do is sleep but it never comes and you dread the coming of night. It's really hard, but it'll pass. Take naps if you can, and see if your husband is willing to do more of an even split during the week, especially since you're bottle feeding. No reason it should fall all on you imo.

[Bonde]

We are also tired parents (main reason our journal has not been updated). DS is in day care weekdays 7-8h/day which really improved our wellbeing. Thanks to Danish wellfare and high taxes it is affordable. But day care comes with a lot of infections (atm all of us have red eyes). Luckily it mostly disturb his sleep and there has been few sick days.
Night duty is split evenly and in weekends we take turns in the morning so each of us get 1h extra rest.
Still we are both very tired most of the time.
A collegue with 4 kids told me that it gets better at 3yo. I count months a try to enjoy/cherish the amazing development of early childhood as we have decided to only have DS.

[bostonimproper]

Thanks all, I appreciate the well wishes and sympathy. Here’s hoping our toddler figures out sleeping through the night sometime soon.

Am I secretly a Type A careerist?

So obviously I’ve been applying for jobs lately which means I’ve been spending more time on LinkedIn. I’ll see updates from former coworkers and classmates in my feed— Mike is at AirBnB, Daniel went to Netflix, Dana is at Anthropic, Miles is at OpenAI, etc. Some of these people I’m like, yeah, obviously, you’re great and I’m so glad you found a good role! Sometimes though, I inwardly give a side-eye, What, him? God save his future coworkers.

In either case, though, I’m starting to feel pangs of envy. I see these people moving up in their careers and at companies which seem to have, I don’t know, a future? Whereas I feel like I’m stuck at my current place, diving daily into the job postings for opportunities and coming up empty. I know I’ve said this before, but the job market for product right now is bleak. Theoretically AI/ML is all the rage right now or whatever, but that really hasn’t panned out in terms of opportunities. Some click-baity articles online say that the AI revolution has come for tech and that’s what’s causing the continued layoffs. Hah, no. Outsourcing, that’s what’s in vogue. Everywhere I’m seeing posts only for India-based teams.

Meanwhile, crypto has been on a rampage. At this rate, within 2-3 months, our net worth should be at a point that if I lost my job and never got hired again, we could probably survive. It would be leaner, for sure, and we wouldn’t have the college fund ready or be able to do a renovation to add some more space to our place, but we’d survive.

Which then makes me wonder— Why do I care so much about my career right now? Why am I so angry about not getting promoted? Why am I so scared of the prospect of being shut out of future product roles if I get laid off?

I think part of it is that I’m not ready for the gravy train to end, not yet. I want a nice financial cushion before I bow out and I haven’t checked all those boxes.

The other part though is careerist vanity. If I’m being honest sometimes I think about the annoying people I’ve come across in my career and think about how I need to succeed to, I don’t know, show them I can? Living well’s the best revenge and all that, but that means you’re only winning if things are going well. There’s also the imposter syndrome in my own head. How do I know I’m worthwhile if other people don’t validate me with money, praise, etc. It’s brain-infecting nonsense, but it’s there. It’s there.

[Chris]

Am I secretly a Type A careerist?

I think the answer to this is: "only sometimes."

At least that's how it is with me.

As you pointed out at the start, these feeling come to the surface because you're spending a lot of time on LinkedIn. It's a whole environment of careerists trying to out-careerist each other. Like most social media, the public-facing personas will always be shiny and attractive. When a capable person, such as yourself, is gazing through these windows, you know you could be attaining it to. It's not out of reach. "A little tweak here, a little networking there, and that could be me!" you think.

You're feeling this way because it's the environment you're active in at the moment. That whole world is people and their positions. This much reduced form of the Real World makes it easy to compare people, including against yourself. But you didn't think this way when you were on PTO, did you?

The next question is: would accepting that you're a careerist bother you? And if so, do you want to be deprogrammed?

[delay]

Thanks for your journal update!

I’ll see updates from former coworkers and classmates in my feed— Mike is at AirBnB, Daniel went to Netflix, Dana is at Anthropic, Miles is at OpenAI, etc. Some of these people I’m like, yeah, obviously, you’re great and I’m so glad you found a good role! Sometimes though, I inwardly give a side-eye, What, him? God save his future coworkers.

In either case, though, I’m starting to feel pangs of envy. I see these people moving up in their careers and at companies which seem to have, I don’t know, a future?

When I talk to people who work at really large companies they are both extremely arrogant and extremely confirmist. They'll say things like "I invented Google before Google existed". It's clear that they look down on me, but not at all clear that they are happier.

They envy those above them, the more expensive car and the longer sailing boat. Will they be happy when they own a boat of current length plus 10 yards? I doubt it.

Everyone has people above and below him. If you compare yourself to people who are more succesful you'll feel envy. You can also compare yourself to people who are worse off. Doing both helps you be happy in the place you are now.

[7Wannabe5]

Envy isn't always the clearest indicator of most functional direction of growth. For instance, I recently found myself feeling, clearly ridiculously, envious of an impoverished African grandmother with six grandchildren gathered around her in a photo. Why can't I live on a fresh new continent or planet where I wouldn't have to feel guilty/conflicted about wishing I had 6 grandchildren gathered round me? Would I really want to be weighted down with the responsibility for 6 grandchildren even in a "fresh planet" situation? What then is this brief twinge of envy really about?

OTOH, I have zero-percent envy for careerists, except maybe to the extent that I do sort of strive to maintain the ability to "signal" that I could be one if I so desired. Like when I am riding my bicycle to my latest permaculture project on a short-cut through a suburban park of careerist structures at 8:38 in the morning, maybe the design on my t-shirt is chosen to signal something like "2370 on old school GRE, but I'd rather be gardening", although my primary feeling is joy/freedom not to be somebody driving their car towards the parking lot of one of the corporate structures.

[bostonimproper]

@Chris @7w5 I appreciate the insightful posts. Thinking about it some more, I realize it’s less envy and more like competitiveness I feel (as my spouse can attest, I am a very poor sport). As someone who definitely believes that it’s a shame when people waste their time and talents going all in on games that don’t matter, I definitely think it’s something I’ll be able to “snap out of” easily once I deactivate my LinkedIn.

[bostonimproper]

Milestone unlocked: we’ve hit a “leanFIRE” net worth for our household. It’s lower than I feel comfortable walking away with since it would involve spending less than we do now, but it is in the manageable range. My “real number” is probably unnecessarily high in the context of this forum. Also a large portion is in crypto (paper gains). Depending on how this bull cycle unfolds, I should be able to hit my true target in traditional assets (stocks, bonds, cash, real estate, etc) while still maintaining a healthy crypto position sometime this year, maybe?

[Scott 2]

Congrats! I found hitting that bottom end number vastly lowered my work related stress.

On the careerism - LinkedIn is designed to foster a sense of competition. It's unbelievable the titles some of my peers hold now. You think - "that guy? really???". It's all the worst aspects of social media, just as bad as facebook or instagram. Post FIRE - what gets hard, is watching your paths diverge even further. There's no catching the Managing Directors and CTO's at this point. I'm just a poor retiree, lol. The sense of loss is very real.

Having the time with your family though, no amount of money buys that back.

[Western Red Cedar]

In either case, though, I’m starting to feel pangs of envy. I see these people moving up in their careers and at companies which seem to have, I don’t know, a future?.....

Which then makes me wonder— Why do I care so much about my career right now? Why am I so angry about not getting promoted? Why am I so scared of the prospect of being shut out of future product roles if I get laid off?

I think part of it is that I’m not ready for the gravy train to end, not yet. I want a nice financial cushion before I bow out and I haven’t checked all those boxes.

The other part though is careerist vanity. If I’m being honest sometimes I think about the annoying people I’ve come across in my career and think about how I need to succeed to, I don’t know, show them I can? Living well’s the best revenge and all that, but that means you’re only winning if things are going well. There’s also the imposter syndrome in my own head. How do I know I’m worthwhile if other people don’t validate me with money, praise, etc. It’s brain-infecting nonsense, but it’s there. It’s there.

I dealt with some of this in the last six months at my work. Perhaps it was careerist vanity in my case, but I think I'd probably label it as career identity. As I was crafting my exit, it was sometimes difficult to accept letting go of my own role and authority, and watching others who may not have been as qualified or experienced take promotions or leadership positions. We had a lot of new opportunities that emerged in the last couple years, so people were able to move into senior roles much more quickly than when I started in my field more than a decade ago.

The funny thing is that just about everyone probably wished they could be in my shoes - walking away for a year to travel the world and explore some of the great cities and natural areas in Asia and Europe. Most of them told me so directly. It was just hard accepting the fact that I wouldn't be receiving validation from work anymore.

There is an article that @Jacob has linked to a few times bout a high-powered executive who pursues FI, retires, and finds some success as a sculptor. He talks about the opportunity costs from a careerist perspective, and what he gives up when looking at his friends who stayed in the game (or rat race). It captures my thoughts on the transition really well. Maybe someone has the link...

Anyway, I'm curious to see how you think about all of this in a year or so, or whenever you move away from your career.

[jacob]

There is an article that @Jacob has linked to a few times bout a high-powered executive who pursues FI, retires, and finds some success as a sculptor. He talks about the opportunity costs from a careerist perspective, and what he gives up when looking at his friends who stayed in the game (or rat race). It captures my thoughts on the transition really well. Maybe someone has the link...

https://www.getrichslowly.org/fifteen-y ... etirement/

[dara]

I have a hard time relating to this as someone who's never played the career game but it's crazy to see how attached people get to the identity their job gives them. They then look at others who happened to climb higher on the corporate ladder - not even necessarily being better or smarter but perhaps just sacrificing even more of their lives - and they go "wow, I wish I had that (the title and the status that comes with it)". Frankly seems a bit bizarre looking at it from the outside - if not sad.

[ertyu]

Imo the need to let go of recognition, influence, job identity, etc. is unavoidable. Age comes for us all, if you don't do it today, you'll have to do it tomorrow; if it's not due to voluntary retirement, it'll be due to medical issue, if it's not a medical issue, it'll be cognitive decline. Do we lose something by holding on to recognition for as long as possible? I think so. We give up the ability to fully come into ourselves as people without the constant crutch of external ego validation.

[frugaldoc]

I have a hard time relating to this as someone who's never played the career game but it's crazy to see how attached people get to the identity their job gives them. They then look at others who happened to climb higher on the corporate ladder - not even necessarily being better or smarter but perhaps just sacrificing even more of their lives - and they go "wow, I wish I had that (the title and the status that comes with it)". Frankly seems a bit bizarre looking at it from the outside - if not sad.

Perhaps people are looking for title or status but sometimes we are looking for greater responsibility. I know that my job satisfaction grows with increased responsibility, as long as I am given the authority to execute the changes I desire. It is also eye opening to see things from different levels. I become more empathetic with the leaders above me the more I am exposed to the information and choices they have to contend with.

[jacob]

Perhaps people are looking for title or status but sometimes we are looking for greater responsibility. I know that my job satisfaction grows with increased responsibility, as long as I am given the authority to execute the changes I desire.

In Spiral Dynamics, this [regret] is all color Orange. The "responsibility with authority" has the subtitle of Strive-Drive and fits 60-70% of Americans and half of Europeans in very broad terms. Under this value-system people are looking to succeed and get better at what they do. The reward being material abundance and [maybe earned] titular status but perhaps most importantly having the opportunity to keep striving. "Be the best you can be" is even more important than "Being better than others" (Red) with this mindset. Contrast this with SD: Green (the other half of Europe, 10% of NA) which values the exploration of being happy and satisfied (often together with others or it doesn't count.)

Due to the hierarchical nature of the strive game, it typically takes a lifetime (or at least expending all your potential energy---an athlete will reach this point in the 30s already) to reach the top. Someone opting out of the game of striving for more authority and responsibility for the pursuit of another set of values will always have a part of them wondering what could have been if they don't adopt an entirely new set of values and/or reject their previous ones outright.

[Henry]

They then look at others who happened to climb higher on the corporate ladder - not even necessarily being better or smarter but perhaps just sacrificing even more of their lives - and they go "wow, I wish I had that (the title and the status that comes with it)".

These are the people who created HOA boards.

[white belt]

Perhaps people are looking for title or status but sometimes we are looking for greater responsibility. I know that my job satisfaction grows with increased responsibility, as long as I am given the authority to execute the changes I desire. It is also eye opening to see things from different levels. I become more empathetic with the leaders above me the more I am exposed to the information and choices they have to contend with.

I'm curious if you have ever grown more cynical after seeing things from different levels? Maybe this was/is just a military thing for me, but I'd say that there were times when seeing things from a higher leader's perspective was more demoralizing than anything else because I realized that the incompetence/rot runs all the way up, or that issues at their core would never be resolved because they were structural in nature. Sometimes, I think my perspective on certain topics was better when I knew less because then I could at least pretend the things higher leaders were talking about behind closed doors were actually important. YMMV because I am someone who really enjoyed the tactical world and felt myself losing my mind in the strategic world.

[jacob]

I'm curious if you have ever grown more cynical after seeing things from different levels? Maybe this was/is just a military thing for me, but I'd say that there were times when seeing things from a higher leader's perspective was more demoralizing than anything else because I realized that the incompetence/rot runs all the way up, or that issues at their core would never be resolved because they were structural in nature. Sometimes, I think my perspective on certain topics was better when I knew less because then I could at least pretend the things higher leaders were talking about behind closed doors were actually important. YMMV because I am someone who really enjoyed the tactical world and felt myself losing my mind in the strategic world.

I lost my idealistic illusions about how academic research was about "seeking a higher truth standing on the shoulders of giants" when higher ups began to reveal how the game of succeeding was less about exploring the universe and increasingly more about gaming the various academic systems like grants, publications, awards, and petty politics... Similar to realizing that success in college is more about GPA/diploma than learning and discovery. Higher ups weren't incompetent as much as they were playing (or being played by) a different game than what the recruitment brochure selected for.

I'm not even sure that this is a sign of rot as much as how higher ups increasingly deal with "people doing the job" as opposed to the job itself. In other words, the issue was structural; basically the structure of dealing with people. Selling a vision of idealism is a way to get people working largely non-productive jobs for lower wages. Because it's not just a job. It's a calling. It works as long as the vision/idealism persists at the entry-levels.

I'll refer to https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/t ... he-office/ for an astute analysis. I think the above is problematic for any up-or-out employment model because turning Gervais-clueless into Gervais-sociopaths is inherent in the structure. Up-or-out doesn't leave much room---although it's still possible, getting a staff position---to stay clueless forever. And Gervais-losers never even make it to gradschool. IOW, it's not exactly a healthy eco-system. More like a pyramid feeding scheme.