What would you do if you got zeroed out tomorrow?

[7Wannabe5]

Consider all that is already implied in the simple question, "What would you do?" I noted that not even the more religious members of the forum mentioned prayer, because the question itself implies perspective of individual with agency moving forward, although the situation to be overcome is presented as happenstance. So, it might also be worthwhile to consider a situation in which you do believe that you held some agency in relationship to the "crash" as well as the "recovery."

[Hristo Botev]

Consider all that is already implied in the simple question, "What would you do?" I noted that not even the more religious members of the forum mentioned prayer,

au contraire:

This reminds me of some of the Jesuit detachment type prayer exercises I'd do back when I'd go on annual 3-day silent retreats; it's a good exercise and hopefully results in a heavy dose of gratitude.

. . . .

So, at a certain level I am already "detached" (in a Jesuit or Stoic way) from the fake digits that are in those various banking and investing accounts.

Relevant here wrt Jesuit detachment: https://afaithfulpath.files.wordpress.c ... erence.pdf

[7Wannabe5]

@Hristo:

My bad. Makes me wonder to what extent my life philosophy has been influenced by the fact that both my parents attended a Jesuit University? Of course, my mother has also remarked "Tillich saved religion for me.", so not exactly in your camp methinks...

Anyways, I was really thinking more about how in situations where we believe we did have some agency in relationship to a "crash", there is, obviously, more tendency to not want to follow the same path again OR to reflect more on how the greater environment might be improved.

The world is run and reproduced by realists, but it is transformed, bit by bit, by dreamers.

- Hanzi Freinach

[chenda]

@7wannabe5 - Karma yoga over Bhakti yoga. Action over prayer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_y ... udjomqqrn3

[7Wannabe5]

@chenda:

Yes, and considering how the path creates the field which influences the path.

What if the question was what would you do if you got zeroed out tomorrow and it was likely that you were going to be zeroed out again every 10 years on average? What if marriages were legislated to only last 10 years at most? There is something about our "salad days" that we enjoy.

[AxelHeyst]

My biggest struggle with these sorts of exercises is that where I'm at now isn't an accident. I very deliberately and consciously built the minimal version of what I wanted. So unless the reset comes with a new personality, new likes and dislikes, new goals and aspirations, the water's gonna stick on the duck's back. Sure, survival is possible, even some amount of contentedness. But there seems to be an implicit how will you get back to where you are now in the OP, and barring flukey good luck that offsets the flukey bad luck, I'm already beyond the point of no return.

mathiverse is right, the reason this question is interesting to me is not how to get back to where I am, but would I want to get back to where I am now and if not why and what can I do about it? It's a way of questioning assumptions. I do get that the question is going to be more/less/differently useful to people at different phases. I'm 37 and got into ERE three years ago. It's a good time for me to be questioning what I'm doing.

Path dependence is really interesting to me. I am where I am right now because of the combination of things that happened to me along the way. My education unfolded along that path. And so my reason for posing the question to myself is, if I got zeroed, would I want to get back to exactly where I am now? Is there anything I'd choose differently? And if so... what's stopping me from actually doing that?

The question "what advice would I give my younger self?" is interesting (so interesting to me in fact that I'm literally writing a book about it) but "what would you do different if you zero'd now?" generates inquiry that I might be more actionable. I can't go back and influence my younger self, but I COULD do something different now if this zero'd question generates novel insights.

A small but concrete example is that in 2017 I had a vague notion of achieving a lower CoL, and of dirtbagging, and digital nomadism. And so I built Serenity my cargo trailer conversion. I learned that a) it's quite easy to spend a lot of money even if you live in a cargo trailer (Serenity was perhaps good tactics but I had bad overall strategy) and b) dirtbagging while working full time with responsibility kind of sucks actually and c) I don't like full time nomadicism, I want a home base.

But would I tell my younger self not to build Serenity? How else was he to learn the things he had to learn? And having Serenity exposed me to further education and opportunities that led me to where I am now. I'm not actually sure I have any better ideas for 2017Axel than to build Serenity.

But if I got zero'd now I would not build another Serenity. I'd do something else for shelter/transportation. If I got zero'd now I wouldn't live within 50 miles of here because it's not a great social/cultural fit (and the question is what made me realize this reality at a deeper level than I had before asking it). So... should I still have Serenity? Should I still live here?

[Jin+Guice]

I think the interesting part of this question is whether or not you would rebuild the stash and whether or not you'd do it with the same method you did before.

Personally I would not. If I had an easy money, low-thought, low-time job like I do now, I would probably rebuild 3-5 years of expenses before cashing out. I don't generally plan on working more than 1 or 2 more years at any given point though.

I think the skills you get at WL6+ makes this less of a panic situation than it is if you are WL5 or less. Dually so if you have very low CoL.

The greatest loss for me would be losing access to all of the money I wasted time needless suffering to get (the needless part of the suffering is likely true whether or not the scenario happens).

[mountainFrugal]

Assuming worst case scenario where I could not rely on my social network, I had to rely on local resources as much as possible, and my bugout pack was toast (not everyday carry technically). I would walk over to hardware store and buy a full tang knife, cordage, a tarp, a blanket, a hatchet, some fishing hooks and large metal cup to cook in and sterilize water (outside of the springs). I would swing by the grocery store and buy a large jar of nutbutter, some oats, a few fresh veggies, and some legumes. I would build a tarp shelter near one of the many springs that are within a short distance of decent fishing. I have an excellent mental map of the nearby forest and what areas are frequented by forest rangers (avoid these areas for longer term stays).

I would use the library to apply for unemployment and some local forest service or state jobs. I would pester the bike store owner to let me show him my bike repair skills (he actually knows me, but let's pretend). In the mean time, my everyday carry kit has a sketchbook in it. I would set up in a high foot traffic area in town and do sketches for tourists and towns people of of dogs, cars, children or whatever they care about. I would sell these for cash. Depending on art sales, I might also buy some new paper to do larger pieces for more money. Then I would take in the information of these feelers and directions and reassess from there.

Easy mode. Stay with friends in town. Borrow money for cheap laptop. Consult. Spend more time looking for consulting gigs.

Either way it is very unlikely that I would grind in a single specialist job to save up a stash again unless I found a company idea I really wanted to implement and start. I have many interests and feel much more comfortable piecing together stuff as it comes along.

Advice to younger self- You are very flexible in your thinking, no need to stay in a predefined path. Figure it out on the fly.

[7Wannabe5]

Not to be Rainer on parade, I would note that although I have been financially zeroed out and severely socially blind-sided on multiple occasions, the “crash” I have experienced as much more likely to cause increase in expenses and decrease in capabilities which makes boot-strapping once more difficult was health related. OTOH, age is really only a number that often correlates with health.

[chenda]

Maybe we should all take insurance against this possibility by having some gold in a Swiss bank account (allegorically not necessarily literally) Enough to buy a place in Laos and disappear if needed.

[Henry]

A funny thing happened on the way to +1MM net worth - I pray more. I actually feel more fragile and dependent on God because the money and/or status doesn't mean a pile of meth infested donkey shit. It might sound like a humblebrag but it's not. It's real and has become a source of consternation. I thought it would provide a greater sense of security and well being but it doesn't. I prayed less when I was zero and even less when I was less than zero. Life is just a crooked saw cut through a straight piece of wood. Plain old fucked up and beyond comprehension. Accumulation of assets is just a socially accepted expression of addiction. It does not fill the hole. I'm still going to die feeling like a worthless of POS. On the bright side, it's nice to be able to tell people to fuck off and if they don't like it to call my lawyer even though I don't have one.

[OutOfTheBlue]

Laos was probably allegoric as well. To my knowledge, foreigners may only lease land (own land use rights), not buy it.

[Jin+Guice]

I think the spirit of the thread is more "why do you need gold in the Swiss bank account to disappear." And "what can you learn by thinking about a scenario where disappearing is advantageous or necessary."

[IlliniDave]

Really? I don't think so. There is even this in the OP which implies questioning whether your current set up needs to be recreated or whether your old decisions were obsolete and something else would suffice.

To me it read more about questioning the process of how to get there than the end point, but AH clarified and I misread. Still, for those of us more or less at the retired phase, the goal would be getting back to it, no?

[AxelHeyst]

Still, for those of us more or less at the retired phase, the goal would be getting back to it, no?

Would it? For me, 95% of my pile of money was accumulated doing something I have zero desire to do again. The thought of signing up for another 5+ years of what I did to get what I've got is extremely unattractive. So. I can either stick with the goal of hitting an FI/retire number and try to find something else to do to accumulate as fast as possible, or maybe the answer to the question is "f it, I'll just get a few-year's buffer and semiERE my way through the rest of life. A retirement stash is unnecessary due to what I learned over the course of my EREducation.'

But that's just what's interesting to me, I think all of the 'mis'understandings and modifications to the OP question are sources of insight as well. It's not like there's one right answer. To riff on something JMG wrote about druidry, "Ask three EREfolk for a definition of ERE and you'll get nine answers." This is a feature!

If I can distill my own personal answer down even more, I think it is "I would not pursue a proven path towards accumulating a FI-level stash as quickly as possible. I would build back up a ~7x buffer and then tweak my life until the inputs are at least slightly greater than the outputs, and I'd make consistent small bets that could turn into a 30+x stash but I wouldn't lose sleep over it."

[IlliniDave]

Would it?

Well okay, to each her/his own. It would certainly be my goal, having had a taste of it. It wouldn't be the same retirement I have now (said before it's not possible). I couldn't take the same path to get there (virtually impossible). But ultimately I'd still want replenish the accounts enough that a day came I wouldn't have keep trudging to a job until I had to be hauled away feet first on a gurney and a sheet over my face. (I saw that happen once). I'll be 60 on my next birthday. Realistically, by the time I could build up even a 7x buffer from a broke, homeless state I probably wouldn't have 7 years remaining. And I'd be back to retired.

[chenda]

Laos was probably allegoric as well.

It was.

This is why asset protection gets increasingly important as one gets older. This old thread touches on some of the issues: viewtopic.php?t=875&hilit=Swiss

Maybe everyone over a certain age should get a legal MOT with regard to asset protection and take some precautions. This might be worthy of a separate thread.

[Frita]

Well okay, to each her/his own. It would certainly be my goal, having had a taste of it. It wouldn't be the same retirement I have now (said before it's not possible). I couldn't take the same path to get there (virtually impossible). But ultimately I'd still want replenish the accounts enough that a day came I wouldn't have keep trudging to a job until I had to be hauled away feet first on a gurney and a sheet over my face. (I saw that happen once). I'll be 60 on my next birthday. Realistically, by the time I could build up even a 7x buffer from a broke, homeless state I probably wouldn't have 7 years remaining. And I'd be back to retired.

My MIL and her second spouse lost everything when they were 49 and 52, respectively. They lived large until they didn’t and continued working, trying to recapture the salad days, until around 80. They felt screwed by the man, by the system, taking no responsibility. Uh… They wanted to recreate what they had (albeit, exactly what this groups eschew) rather than accept reality and recalibrate/shift expectations. I have learned a lot from those two over the years.

I agree with IlliniDave. Age would definitely change how we would navigate being zeroed out. In our late-30s we ended up with a massive neonatal bill after we maxed out our insurance (Nothing was written off by the hospital.). We worked like crazy to pay it off, so yeah, I have confidence in our ability to cope but know we are in a different place now. It would be harder, no impossible, to make that kind of scratch now. I think I would become bitter if I didn’t accept that things were just going to be different than expected. (In my 30s and 40s, I thought there was plenty of time. In my 50s, I see where all this is headed.) Plus I’d rather live simply and enjoy my remaining time instead of grinding.

[ffj]

I think everybody is interpreting this differently.

I approach it as a tactician while others are dwelling on values and I am sure some make no distinction between the two. And as the variables are all over the place it all comes down to individual circumstances. So is there any real answer?

But I will reinforce what IDave is talking about. Your age absolutely matters. And I think the difference between someone like myself or Dave and the younger members is that although obviously the less-aged among us can process that mentally, we can actually feel it as concrete reality. We've crested the hill and are on the downward slope I like to joke. But maybe that is part of the exercise too?

I think the hardest issue in the re-accumulation phase would be maintaining an attitude that this isn't a deprivation but a liberation with the hindsight of how hard it had been to have achieved freedom before but now with the acknowledgement of our age and physical conditioning.

[suomalainen]

Well, I think loss aversion plays a huge role in this question, and that bias depends on what exactly you've lost. Younger folks or those with fewer financial resources who rely on their youth/energy, skills and social connections will feel the loss of the zero less than the older folks or those with greater financial resources who rely less on their youth/energy, skills and social connections and are relying more on their financial capital (retirees) or social capital (at a job/company).