Early Retirement Extreme Forums

I'd bail if there weren't kids already personally. She wants to work until she's 60 and is not ok with roommates? Working 5-20 years is better than sharing space with some probably nice people? Just the thought of kids would send me running for another haha.

But it's up to you. It's possible by slingin' the benefits rather than the money, you'll have much better luck.

@ Demosthenes

I don't know of too many people who will change habits and beliefs that have been built over years just because someone presented some verbal arguments to the contrary. Personally I'd just go ahead and live my life with FI as an objective with the hope, but not the expectation, that my mate will embrace the benefits when they see the direct evidence that it's possible. Working while FI is eminently better than being a dependent worker. You can find the best job out there and not have to worry so much about incentive caused bias that traps people in terrible work environments. That alone is worth it to me. The risk here is that the other side is against the FI lifestyle and leaves you for someone who is a better fit. I think finding a compatible spouse is like the 2nd most important decision in your life behind maybe health decisions. Your approaches to Religion, Politics and Money (those things you don't discuss in mixed company or some such) pretty much must fit with your spouses or you'll be in for a rough ride IMHO.

Lemur wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:38 pm

Spouse and I are pretty much in sync with our goals except she likes to eat out and make the occasional stop to McDonalds. I'm vehemently against fast food and eating out in general but it is a small price to pay for long-term marriage happiness I guess. What helped me spouse get on bored is realizing we can stretch our money much further in her home country so that is one of our plans in the future.

I think that's wise. Not just from a "happy wife, happy life" vantage point, but from a winning the battle, losing the war perspective. Taking away a small pleasure will make you appear legalistic and the entire process a killjoy. As long as the the principle is agreed upon, you need to allow for some practical inconsistencies. But to be transparent, I also happen to enjoy the occasional stop at McDonald's so this is really just an exercise in my trying to justify a personal inability to drive past those greedy, poisonous bastards' golden fucking arches. I swear Satan must have been at the conference table when they decided to make breakfast available at all fucking hours of the damn day.

sausage egg mcmuffins taste gooood....

Jason wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:18 pm

Lemur wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:38 pm

Spouse and I are pretty much in sync with our goals except she likes to eat out and make the occasional stop to McDonalds. I'm vehemently against fast food and eating out in general but it is a small price to pay for long-term marriage happiness I guess. What helped me spouse get on bored is realizing we can stretch our money much further in her home country so that is one of our plans in the future.

I think that's wise. Not just from a "happy wife, happy life" vantage point, but from a winning the battle, losing the war perspective. Taking away a small pleasure will make you appear legalistic and the entire process a killjoy. As long as the the principle is agreed upon, you need to allow for some practical inconsistencies. But to be transparent, I also happen to enjoy the occasional stop at McDonald's so this is really just an exercise in my trying to justify a personal inability to drive past those greedy, poisonous bastards' golden fucking arches. I swear Satan must have been at the conference table when they decided to make breakfast available at all fucking hours of the damn day.

Exactly my thoughts. In four years time, my spouse has significantly changed to align with a lot of my goals. I think the key was I didn't push it...she just noticed my habits over-time and started adopting them for herself. It helps when I can show her our investments and say 'look here, I made $400 this month doing nothing!". This changed from 'good for you' to 'how can I do this' over-time. What my spouse does better than me is start businesses. I'm too risk-adverse to start one myself but she is doing great right now with her own business at home.

That’s great about the businesses, especially if you have complimentary skill sets. There is absolutely no redundancy in my marriage. My wife is the type of person who will notice that a chalice is moved within a scene in Games of thrones and will call it unrealistic. Mind you this is show that features a woman flying on top of a fucking dragon but its at the point of a prop being moved that she identifies credibility issues. Sometimes it’s like my mind is asked to stop and turn in the other direction but for the most part it’s better when there are different applications operating within a shared philosophical system. Now I have to think about the way that last sentence came out because I know I never would have written anything like that before I read a 7W5 post.

BlueNote wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:23 am

I don't know of too many people who will change habits and beliefs that have been built over years just because someone presented some verbal arguments to the contrary. Personally I'd just go ahead and live my life with FI as an objective with the hope, but not the expectation, that my mate will embrace the benefits when they see the direct evidence that it's possible. Working while FI is eminently better than being a dependent worker.

@BlueNote: I wholeheartedly agree with the first part of your statement. Verbal arguments do not work in situations like this. Nassim Taleb said something to the effect... "Losers win verbal arguments. Winners win." You just make it your goal and, unless your partner actively sabotages this goal, you'll get there. "FI is eminently better..." - ha-ha, I can tell you are a fellow NT... SJs that I observed (VERY closely) do not want to be free. They want to be bound... still not a fatal flaw if the person is good with money, at least in a conventional sense.

@Clarice - It's more that SJs seek security. That security is found by surrounding themselves with conventions and structure that takes the form of jobs and stuff---both defining qualities of position. A FI target is conceivable, but it's conventional ("A million dollars") because that number defines another form of conventional security. NTs seek knowledge and exercise of competence, so the number is arbitrary. NTs will talk about freedom if they don't get to exercise competence or explore knowledge...otherwise "work is not so bad".

@Clarice

I'd bet lot's of money that this forum is heavily biased towards NT types , I'd also wager that the mode type is INTJ. My wife is SJ according to the test I administered on her. In fact my wife and best friend are both ESTJ types, both like to work in a traditional job a lot more than me which I think is largely a function of how their personality fits with the current work environment.

I think the Taleb quote is "There are two types of people: those who try to win and those who try to win arguments. They are never the same." a good quote. Another quote , and I forget who I got it from, is "What you demand you get, what you tolerate you encourage" so arguing and not taking any other action is like a form of tolerance IMHO. However by simply demanding FI from your self by pursuing it you can lead others because they can't easily ignore success. In fact they'll try to rationalize it and if they do a good job of that they'll generate and internalize they're own arguments which is better than simply adopting someone elses.

For all who think that there is a special ERE spouse somewhere out there...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCS6t6NUAGQ

@Clarice:

Excellent video. I was especially struck by the part where he explained that the tendency to get very "procedural" with a partner is indicative of anxious attachment, since I very frequently have partners who drive me nuts by behaving in this manner. So, kind of light bulb moment for me that this might be a natural response or reaction to my tendency to be very inattentive. I generally attempt to balance my "inattentive" with "warm", for instance if my toddler children needed attention while I was reading a book, I might just pick up and cuddle and offer breast or cookie semi-consciously while still engrossed, but contrary to popular belief, this frequently does not work as well with a grown man, and I suck at empathetic listening to male conflict problems. I also suck at empathetic listening to third-grade conflict problems which is why I am burned out on teaching. My natural reaction to anything along the lines of "Jimmy took cuts in line in front of me!" is either "I don't care. Handle it yourself." or "Okay, both of you go do laps around the playground."

That video struck me as being directed towards people who were perhaps “stuck” in what Jacob described as the lower Wheaton levels of relationships in another thread.

I would think it would be more difficult for people who discovered or made the decision to FIRE/ERE after they were already in a committed LTR. It’s a bit easier to find a like minded mate when you’re already on the journey.

For myself it was (“is” I suppose, still on the journey) easier after I realised what I valued and wanted from a SO. My gf is naturally frugal and while ERE seemed a bit crazy to her, a high savings rate and low spending was normal. This came out early in our relationship when we both preferred to cook and go for walks on dates vs restaurants/bars, etc. As we progressed into living together and eventual engagement (coming soon) it became easier to openly discuss ways to further decrease spending. We’re both introverts which probably helps with reduced spending- me as INTJ and her as maybe an ISFJ? Not sure.

She has a few items that she spends more on (occasional haircuts, beauty stuff, clothes) but she makes her own money and even if she didn’t it’s not much in the grand scheme of things. I think it’s more about finding a balance that works and not letting small things bother you.

My wife doesn’t like the FIRE philosophy. How do I get her onboard with this idea??

And this is here Jacob Lund Fisker came with this awesome answer:

https://www.wannabewalden.com/my-wife-d ... nd-fisker/

This post was incredibly useful for me years ago for getting my spouse on board with FIRE/ERE. This in particular was paradigm shifting for me in terms of the art of persuasion....

People have different ways of understanding new ideas. Some follow example (SP!?), some follow rules (SJ!?), some follow reason (NT!?), and some follow dreams(NF!?).

Follow example and follow dreams resonated with my spouse, especially the latter. I built a vision that if we heavily saved our money we could just live in her home country. My spouse comes from a very collective & family oriented culture (Philippines) so I figured this persuasion angle would work well. Additionally, I don't have any qualms about moving there one day - her family are fun people and I like the culture and climate enough. I look quite forward to this adventure one day. Besides...we could always just go back to the United States if we felt the need to go back.

Anyhow...having "the talk" years ago has finally lend itself to action and my Spouse purchased some land oversees in cash. Just from her business profits ...all savings. The dream building continues. Now she is saving up for the house while I'm continuing to save for the income producing assets (stocks).

I'm going through this process with my girlfriend right now. I've taken the long approach. Instead of having one conversation, I have been trying to lead by example, have related conversations here and there but more generally taking a more hands off suggestive approach. She is naturally frugal but lacks the business/investing background to finish the puzzle. I've made it very open in my conversations about how I feel regarding certain expenses and habits and my desire to get as close to $0 expenses as possible. She is on board with all of that. I have recently suggested that she read Your Money or Your Life. I think she's at the right stage for it and could be a huge breakthrough mentally. If not, then perhaps I might start taking a more direct approach.

ETA: I still am considering doing something like Sky did here. This was brilliant. viewtopic.php?t=5001

@theanimal, good job. Keep rocking. Wishing all best in your relationship.

@theanimal, thank you for sharing that gem of a post from @Sky.

Another 'lead by example' story. My gf's always lived pretty hand-to-mouth with money. No debt - she had a cc once in her early 20s, ran it up to the max, said "got it, I'm not allowed to have a credit card", cut it up, and has always just had an average NW of a few hundred dollars.

She recently sold her van and thus has >10k in savings for the first time in her life. A month ago she decided she's over living in a cold construction zone with me, so she wants to move back closer to friends and get a job in a field she has 15 years experience.

In the past, she always needed to find a job within 2 weeks in order to make rent/bills/whatever, because she had no savings and had a normal CoL. Now, she's able to be extremely picky with her job hunt.

Last night she said "Normally I would have taken that job because it was "good enough"... but I wouldn't have been really happy with it, and I don't *need* the job because I have a FU stash and I can just go live for $500mo for like two years before I get low. So I'll wait until I find the right job."

Umm...I typed this whole thing but I think the thoughts are a bit rambling so sorry for that. Hope the forum understands as I'm not too in-depth on the Wheaton level reading - just going off the table.

And not necessary to make a new thread either- this topic has been on my mind a lot lately. Perhaps a fork in this topic might be where you and your Spouse are on the same path in regards to general FIRE concepts (saving money until 3/4% SWR); however, one of you has been studying ERE, has read the book and has started to embrace some of the concepts, and is working towards leveling up via Wheaton level. The Spouse is stuck in more money = more security. This is where I find myself.

And this is where the Wheaton levels can be very practical - because it allows me to understand mindset more than anything and try to understand mental barriers. So Spouse is probably a level 3. Spouse understands the magic of compound interest but greatly values the security of financial capital over anything else whereas I'm a 5.5ish (my mind understands 6 and even gets 7 a little bit, but my actions put me at 5).

For instance, I will explain things such as "the $ amount invested is arbitrary - we really just need to ensure that inflow of capital is > outflow." My numbers say keeping expenses low, withdrawal + options premiums + finding ways to further reduce expenses (mainly if you try to lead an ecological lifestyle, it seems easy enough) is all we need to quit our jobs and we could do it now! By far and wide though, due to current job situation, I have only embraced financial capital as my solution to everything because it is all I know right now and have time for.... and as I've stated in my journal money is flowing in like tap water due to 6 figure salary and basically all my Spouse's net profit from business getting invested as my salary covers all bills. I am getting hands on with some things though - occasionally, I've creatively found solutions as opposed to buying something. For example, my whole garden right now is built out of pots I found laying around in the woods and self-made compost...and I have an awesome workout without any equipment. Entertainment has nearly $0 cost - plenty of exercise, reading, gardening, teaching son things, cooking...

Whereas my Spouse will say something to the extent of "Need higher margin. What if the market crashes? More money is a no brainer, and I want to do vacations as well - why "struggle" when working more ensures we don't have to sacrifice ever again?" She likes eating out, occasional shopping, and wants vacations in retirement - things I don't particularly care for. What might be interesting to some readers (as a case study) is that our net-worth has grown so fast lately, that I've heard rumblings of "why stop at $750k, why not go for the mil?" oof...how can ones Wheaton level weaken lol.

Unfortunately - my personal "first world" problem (which I consider this...by all means at 30 years of age just having these options in life is a huge privilege) might be when I understand that I could right now quit 9-5 work as I've seen with my own eyes on these forums the alternative lifestyles of people doing it. I appreciate others journals so much - they've opened my eyes to all sorts of possibilities. Like real life ERE case studies. But the Spouse is a strong guardian and traditional - if she is making money and I'm "doing nothing" it would create far too much resentment.

One sort of pierce in the Spouse armor is the statement that "if we did not have a child" we could do what Mr. Lemur is suggesting. This leads me to believe she does not think my ideas are too crazy - just not practical. Again...think this is a guardian thing. I, for one, would think it awesome if our son could see alternative lifestyles and a different sort of "traditional" education. OTOH, my Spouse comes from an Asian culture where supporting parents, and sometimes extended family, and supplying education through $$$ is part of the parental sacrifice - anything less makes one a not so good parent.

Not sure where to go from here - there is no such things as one epiphany to change a persons mind. Like when I brought my Spouse on to FIRE initially - it was through actions and many many conversations that occurred over-time. Increasing your Spouse's Wheaton level I think is a tougher challenge. Perhaps a way to begin is to speak to her from a level 4 standpoint if she is a level 3. The ERE book is valuable on the behavior change aspect (one of my favorite portions in the book). The change needs to be practical and the vision needs to be strong enough - simultaneously one needs to build a dissatisfaction with the current situation. There might be the problem - the money is coming in too easy for us right now. Who would be dissatisfied with that from a level 3 mindset?

I think you answered your own questions, but you don’t like what you came up with. Obviously, you believe that if you chose to quit your job at this juncture, your wife would become dissatisfied/resentful with the situation. Since the human emotions you can best handle are your own, you might benefit from asking yourself what you predict your emotional reaction/response to your wife’s demonstrated feelings of emotions might be?

According to mind-mapping theory, we are very good at first forming impressions of likely behaviors/reactions of others in reptilian part of brain, then we assign emotions to our predictions of behaviors of others and our own reactions, and then third/last we apply rational thought (explain the previous to ourselves.) IOW, your sense that your wife’s reaction to you quitting your job would be resentment is more core than your explanation “because she is Level 3.” Your prediction of your own likely emotional reaction to the behavior she may likely exhibit if she does feel resentment is also more core. So, all you can really attempt is to apply rational thought to your own likely emotional reaction and turn it into a response best in alignment with your own goals.

For example, you might ask yourself what is your own opinion of how much longer you would have to work or how much more you would have to save to no longer fear your wife’s likely emotional reaction of resentment if you quit? Does quitting with a billion dollars in the bank conjure up different forms from your core? What if you only had $1000 in the bank?

OTOH, take this advice with huge grain of salt, because coming from somebody who just had sex with her “ex” AND ate way too many strawberry pancakes. 7WillB7 (sigh)