Empathy

[jennypenny]

Instead of teaching people to redirect their 'excessive' empathy, should we try to steer them towards careers that wouldn't drain their batteries? Most people on the far end of the empathy bell curve get pushed into careers where it's assumed that high empathy equals better outcome, like social work. Maybe that's the wrong approach. Or maybe those people should be required to take behavioral and/or cognitive therapy just like psychiatrists.


FYI...They have counseling, classes, and group therapy for kids who have aspergers and autism to teach them all of this (the skills mentioned in this thread, the communication/reading people thread, and the gratitude thread). It's surprisingly effective.

[JamesR]

Sorry for the thread-jack, but I wanted to mention a pet hypothesis I have.

My hypothesis: That there is a strong correlation with a person's mimicry ability and their empathy.

As you know, mimicry is a really effective way for children to learn certain things quickly. Physical mimicry (such as copying a dance move) is practically like a transform, we're taking the pattern that we observed on someone else's body, and then applying it on our body's unique physiology. So perhaps it requires empathy accurately recognize the pattern - such as the relationships of a movement on someone's body, and then apply it to your own body's unique physiology and achieve a recognizable similar set of relationships. The idea came to me because I noticed that a sociopath I knew had a lot of trouble accurately mimicking dance moves and things like that. It took him a lot longer, and it seemed that he had trouble noticing how his mimicry was off.

If this relationship is true, then you could rehabilitate certain classes of criminals by making them engage in lots of activities that require mimicry, and perhaps other empathy boosting activities like roleplaying.

==
BTW, empathy is more of a skill level. Seems like maybe there's some confusion between empathy and empathizing here? "Getting tired from empathy" doesn't make any sense. "Getting tired from empathizing" probably makes more sense.

[Myakka]

I am about half way through the podcast, and have taken a break because I am finding the conversation fascinating and overrwhelming and needing alot of time to chew on and integrate. The thought that is screaming at me inside my head surrounds the way empathy is being talked about. As someone who has a direct familial relationship with someone with psychopathic tendencies, I want to distinguish between two steps that are being repeatedly meshed together in the podcast: 1) the ability to distinguish what someone else is feeling AND 2) what your inner reaction to that information is. Not everyone who experiences another person's sadness (step 1), then goes on to feel that it is sad/unfortunate/a problem (step 2). There is an act of choice (even if it is a knee-jerk one) in how you choose to react to what is going on with another person. Probably nearly everyone chooses to block out another's pain from time to time -- even if it is just from being in a place of overwhelm and needing a break. A psychopath/bully/sadist can be someone who does the first step of distinguishing what is going on within another person at least as well as most people do, BUT who then goes on to enjoy that pain and is therefore inclined to increase the suffering of the other person -- rather than allay it.

[7Wannabe5]

James R said: If this relationship is true, then you could rehabilitate certain classes of criminals by making them engage in lots of activities that require mimicry, and perhaps other empathy boosting activities like roleplaying.

I think you may be on to something here. One odd behavior I observed recently was a young mother teaching other children not to touch her daughter's toys, rather than teaching her very young daughter to share her toys. Made me recall how many times as a parent you will feel compelled to physically demonstrate/intervene in activity and say something like "I think Susy might like to play with the blocks too. " One "trick" I learned for interacting with young children is to mimic their bad behavior for a moment. For instance, if your 3 year old is whining and thrashing in the shopping cart saying "I want candy! I want candy!" then you start whining and thrashing about saying something like "I want coffee! I want coffee!" Will often cause the child to just stop and stare. Then once you have "taught" them to empathize, you can lead them to better behavior.

According to separated at birth identical twin studies, tendency towards behavior that would be described as "having good manners" is very much nurture, not nature. Many of the problems suffered by well-mannered, garden-variety neurotics are due to the schism or wall formed between good manners and honest emotional expression. IOW, the criminal element is often under-socialized, but many of us have been over-socialized.

[jacob]

If this relationship is true, then you could rehabilitate certain classes of criminals by making them engage in lots of activities that require mimicry, and perhaps other empathy boosting activities like roleplaying.

Alternatively, one could and will create new criminals out of certain classes of non-criminals by hanging out with the wrong crowd.

[Myakka]

According to the man being interviewed in the podcast, the problem with empathy is the tendency to favor friends/family/people who fall into your stereotypes of who is better at something, the problem is that people are controlled by FOXNews into wanting to punish the bad guys – those are the ones I remember after having slept on their discussion overnight.

I see an underlying assumption in this analysis that one's personal influence will be used to further the interests of oneself and the people one approves of AND therefore comes to the conclusion that in the interest of having a level playing field for the people around you that empathy ought to be avoided. This point of view is a rewording of the dictum that police are apt to quote “No special treatment for anyone”.

The problems with this argument start with the examples given. These aren't even instances of empathy; they are instances of favoritism. That favoritism can have unfortunate consequences is a conclusion that seems sound.

Empathy is not at all the same thing as favoritism. It is the social glue that allows individuals to live and work together smoothly in ways that leave EVERYONE the space they need to FUNCTION optimally. A social system without empathy reduces a group to a collection of individuals each battling that system just to survive – just to be able to do those things that are being asked of them by that system.

The only people I know of who would find it a positive set of circumstances for people to live in such an empathy-free system is the Power Elite who have a long history of setting group against group and then sitting back and watching as those people destroy each other. I see their hand in this argument and therefore reject it as yet another ploy to divide and conquer people like you and me.

[jennypenny]

SBC's test to measure empathy in adults if anyone wants to take it ... http://psychology-tools.com/empathy-quotient

[jacob]

You got: Conan! "Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women."

[jennypenny]

If you're curious if a lack of empathy is caused by psychopathy or because you're on the autism spectrum, you can take SBC's AQ test ... http://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient

[Dragline]

You got: Conan! "Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women."

Ooooh, you asked for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBGOQ7SsJrw

[George the original one]

SBC's test to measure empathy in adults if anyone wants to take it ... http://psychology-tools.com/empathy-quotient

Oh dear, oh dear:

"Your Empathy Quotient score was 27 out of a possible 80.
Scores of 30 or less indicate a lack of empathy common in people with Autism or Asperger’s Syndrome."

Then for the second test... apparently I bend towards being a psychopath, LOL:

"Your score was 15 out of a possible 50.
Scores in the 0 - 25 range indicate little or no Autistic traits."

[Ego]

Hum.

55 out of 80

edit 12 for the second one.

[7Wannabe5]

40/20.

Psychopath/autistic seems like a false dichotomy to me, because I tend towards physical empathy and mental distraction. I almost never get "touched out" and my physical presentation tends towards warm and easy-going, but my mind is often elsewhere, so I sometimes have difficulty in relationship with people who can't be soothed or satisfied through physical care and require a lot of attentive listening instead. Like I am generally very reflexively in-tune to "this person needs a cuddle" and I am happy to provide, but I sometimes have very little ability or desire to relate or convey understanding in regards to "why" they need a cuddle beyond making appropriate clucking noises. For instance, one of the girlfriend/wife "jobs" I really dislike is being required to listen on the telephone while a man complains about his current employment.

[jacob]

29/19 --- the ideal government-approved combination for someone to hold the nuclear launch codes and not screw it up.

The form of these tests annoy me because I think they confound normal behavior with normative behavior. IOW, they're trying to diagnose a condition by how close to the center of the Bell curve one is. That is, if you're not close to the median, you have a disorder.

However, ...

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

Note how the empathy test focuses on things like manners, "good behavior", experiences, fashions, social situations, seeking agreement (not truth), detecting deception, ... need I go on? ... the kind of empathy that one would expect out of the ES** crowd.

There are few or none if any questions in that test that deal with the existence of e.g. internal morality (Kohlberg 6), resolving multiple emotions in other people, understanding complex emotions (jealousy), solving conflicting emotions, balancing emoting with thinking, relating authentically, understanding how others are thinking (their assumptions and reasoning), understanding ow others are feeling (their memories and balances), ...

A test that would appeal to the IN** crowd.

I'm pretty sure the ES** crowd would score badly on this one.

Similarly, with the Autism test. Gaaahh... pretty much the same deal. You'll score low if you have *NT* skills or preferences. Wait what, you actually know how logarithms work? Score one personality disorder point for not failing math class with the rest of them. Probably the most ironic adjective to this condition is "highly functioning".---Indeed, meaning, functioning better than "normal". What does that rhetorically imply about being normal?

PS: I'm not saying these conditions aren't real or debilitating in extremes. I'm saying that the tests are stupid---or at least shouldn't be applied willy-nilly taking results at face value. I'm also saying that often times the main cause of the problem is not that the person is "crazy" but that society is.

"A time will come when the whole world will go mad. And to anyone who is not mad they will say: 'You are mad, for you are not like us.'" - St. Anthony the Great

[jennypenny]

I'm trying to understand ...

So is part of the problem for INTJs specifically that (1) the tests are designed to screen for traits that we consider useful but society considers odd or 'bad', and (2) we're the only idiots answering truthfully instead of choosing the answers that would make us look the best or the most normal?


For some reason, I'm reminded of this scene from "The Sixth Sense" ... The don't have meetings about rainbows.

[enigmaT120]

I'm saying that the tests are stupid---or at least shouldn't be applied willy-nilly taking results at face value. I'm also saying that often times the main cause of the problem is not that the person is "crazy" but that society is.

Saved me some time.

[cmonkey]

SBC's test to measure empathy in adults if anyone wants to take it ... http://psychology-tools.com/empathy-quotient

Your Empathy Quotient score was 15 out of a possible 80.
Scores of 30 or less indicate a lack of empathy common in people with Autism or Asperger’s Syndrome.


Autistic Test

Your score was 30 out of a possible 50.
Scores in the 26 - 32 range indicate some Autistic traits (Aspergers Syndrome).


I think most of this is by choice. My fixation with numbers/patterns on the other hand...

[GandK]

My fixation with numbers/patterns on the other hand...

I'm pretty sure pattern fixation is a normal part of being INxJ. When your primary understanding of reality is based on spotting and dealing with anomalies, an appreciation of patterns is a survival trait. Also rhythm, efficiency, a desire to eat M&Ms until there's an equal amount of each color left, then consuming them one at a time in spectrum order until no more remain... need I say more?

[Ego]

Right Compassion

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/26/opini ... ssion.html

[BRUTE]

brute scores 31 - one point above autism