Trump - Clown Genius

[Ego]

Regarding pardons, I don't believe a president can pardon for future crimes without changing the law. If someone is here illegally then pardoning them for the past crime of being here illegally does not change the fact that the day after the pardon they are still here illegally, continue to break the law and are still subject to future prosecution. No?

[Dragline]

Pardoning everyone already here would be a good start to a clean slate.

Yes, it probably would, but you can't do it politically because of a particular label it would instantly acquire: Amnesty.

[Riggerjack]

Yes. Seriously. I am trying to understand. I get how progressives can be viewed as pink-haired, tree-hugging bleeding hearts. I can see how the left might have alienated a good number of people, but ffj used the word "denigrated" and that's what I'm not understanding.

In this thread, (or the Clinton thread, or both, they all blend in my tiny mind) I was called a Misogynist, for talking about how Michelle Obama was a better choice than Hillary. Then there were references to people not being aware of what racists they are (Chad). Or, of course pages of Ego calling out everyone who failed to support Clinton in word and deed as being overtly or covertly racists. Or the past 8 years of being told that if I disagreed with my president, it was because I'm racist.

Or, maybe, I'm thin skinned. I don't think so, but maybe I'm out of touch. Are "racist" and "mysogynist" the new "bad"? Are they secretly compliments?
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Now, I live in a literally 99% white populated, blue county, in blue state. So when I hear people use the term racist, misogynist, or privilege, it is out of the mouth of a clueless middle aged white woman, or a theatrically angry young white man. I look forward to moving to the city, if only to get more diversity in the sources of progressive wisdom.

To be clear, EVERY face to face encounter I have had with a racial minority in the last decade plus, has been very cordial. EVERY face to face BS encounter I have had in the last decade, has been with white progressives, who didn't realize they were in mixed company. Online is, well, online.

[Ego]

BTW, when I brought up privilege using the example of being white, male, heterosexual, etc. it wasn't my intention to call anyone out or shame them for who they are. The point I was trying to make is that nearly everyone has some level of privilege, and until we look through the viewpoint of someone who does not share that same privilege, it's all too easy to judge them or invalidate the way they feel. I have definitely been guilty of that myself, and expanding my understanding of people's experiences is something that I'm working on.

I won't speak for them, but I've got to admit that I have to suppress a desire to roll my eyes when I hear this white-male-cis gender privilege argument in real life. There are certainly people who are racist and discriminatory. But I feel like these days there are just as many people willing to go far above and beyond to make sure their organization is representative of the population as a whole. In the organizations I've been a part of, that has involved extending privileged status to everyone but white males.

I find it a compelling explanation for the reason people in the center were lured away from imperfect Hillary toward odious Trump. And Trump's odiousness gave permission to the worst among us to do horrible things. I think the left would be wise to shelve the issue, but I am a middle-aged white guy so.....

I know it is an argument that is nuanced to the point of being almost self-canceling... but it is what I feel to be true.

Listen for two and a half minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcmmJqR ... be&t=13m5s

[Riggerjack]

Riggerjack wrote:

Pardoning everyone already here would be a good start to a clean slate.


Yes, it probably would, but you can't do it politically because of a particular label it would instantly acquire: Amnesty.

Yeah, that's why I suggested the pardon. A complete "end around" of the political process. Of course, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't know if continuing to be in the country after a pardon would constitute an additional crime. Would a trespasser on your property who never left still be a trespasser after the pardon? I don't know. It would depend on if the law makes separate instances, separate crimes. If so, the first instance is pardoned, right?

[Dragline]

This whole thing is devolving into some kind of weird collective schizophrenia. On the one hand, you have Trump saying he's just going to deport the criminals, which is what Obama is already doing (and spending a shitload of our money on).

On the other hand, you have him appointing Steve "Goebbels" Bannon, which is so heartening to the racist community that they are lining up to crow to CNN about what a great thing that is: http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/14/politics/ ... index.html

The American Nazis are apparently just as suspicious of his motives and intentions as we are, albeit in the opposite direction:

"Chairman of the American Nazi Party, Rocky J. Suhayda, who wrote a post after Trump's election night victory celebrating it as a call to action, said he was surprised at the pick of Bannon, but said it showed him Trump could follow through on his campaign promises.

"I must admit that I was a wee bit surprised that Mr. Trump finally chose Mr. Bannon, I thought that his stable of Washington insiders would have objected too vociferously," Suhayda wrote in an email. "Perhaps The Donald IS for 'REAL' and is not going to be another controlled puppet directed by the usual 'Wire Pullers,' and does indeed intend to ROCK the BOAT? Time will tell.""

[RealPerson]

For better or worse, Trump is our new president. He will have at least 2 years to make something positive happen. Fixing the intolerable increases in obamacare health insurance plan premiums would be a terrific start. Rolling back some of the onerous rules and regulations on small businesses would be tremendously helpful as well. He has a window of opportunity with a sympathetic congress. We all need to wait and see what happens. I understand that Hillary supporters are unhappy, but the election is over. The calls for the Electoral College to vote for Hillary instead of Trump is nothing less than a call for a coup. That is disturbing to me.

If Trump spends his time looking for immigrants to deport and trying to lay a foundation for a wall, he will probably be a 1 term president. Candidates say all kinds of silly stuff to get elected. It is what they do after getting elected that matters.

[Dragline]

Fixing the intolerable increases in obamacare health insurance plan premiums would be a terrific start.

I'm afraid he's already screwed the pooch on that one by saying he's going to keep the pre-existing conditions rule, which is the core driver of increased insurance costs under Obamacare. The reason your insurance is expensive is that Obama let all kinds of chronically sick people into your insurance pool. Get rid of them again and your premiums will go down. They will go bankrupt and then get on Medicaid or just go away like it was pre-2008. You will save money.

But if he's got feet of clay and is not really going to repeal the heart and soul of Obamacare, expect to pay even more. Expect to pay WAY more without the insurance mandate, because that's supposed to bring the healthy people into the pool. If you keep the pre-existings and don't get more healthy people in the pool, there is no way insurance costs can go down. Its just math and there is no free lunch.

I'm going to be interested to see how long this Preibus/Bannon honeymoon lasts. They essentially represent two very different parties and one of them, or rather their supporters, is going to be very disappointed. The Bannon folks believed and expect him to make good on the campaign promises -- as promised. Preibus is in the "oh, nobody really believes that stuff" camp and just wants to have Bush 3.0. Slow moving train wreck already set in motion.

[BRUTE]

here's $5 on Trump introducing a single payer system and opening a path to citizenship for immigrants

[RealPerson]

Fixing the intolerable increases in obamacare health insurance plan premiums would be a terrific start.

Expect to pay WAY more without the insurance mandate, because that's supposed to bring the healthy people into the pool. If you keep the pre-existings and don't get more healthy people in the pool, there is no way insurance costs can go down. Its just math and there is no free lunch.

The free lunch would be some form of health care cost control. There is just no way around it no matter how you look at it.

[nestbuilder]

After reading the latest harassment story about an off-duty police officer who cruised a protest flying a confederate flag https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... mp-protest, came across the latest John Oliver. Appreciated his take on the past week: https://youtu.be/-rSDUsMwakI

[jennypenny]

@llorona -- I feel like maybe we ganged up on you a little and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I think the difficulty is that it's hard to generalize. There's no question that if I get pulled over by a cop, need a bank loan, or want to shop for a house, it's better to be white. And if I'm dealing with certain other groups -- those in construction work, certain sports, even my trading group -- there are times it would help to be male, and white male can be even better.

That said, the joe sixpack stereotype is there and seems socially acceptable, even here on the forum. Look at the Trump Problem thread. The attitude towards that group of typical Trump supporters is that they should get off their lazy asses and go find a better life someplace else. If that cohort pictured in the OP article were minorities however, would we have judged them as 'disadvantaged' instead and discussed how to help them where they currently live? I'm not sure but I think it's a fair question to ask.

It's not as clear cut as I'm making it sound, and many different attitudes have aligned recently to reinforce one another. The thinly-veiled disdain for rural folks by many urbanites and the religious component that turns off many liberals (more rural = more fundamentalist) expand the definition of 'joe sixpack' to the point that most white men in the flyover zone get swept up into it. It's the heartland version of 'welfare queen' incorporating all sorts of stereotypes including race, economic status, and locale.

[Gilberto de Piento]

My main reason is that my son would have the privilege of being drafted to fight a senseless war Clinton was well on her way to starting.

Clinton was starting a war large enough to require the draft? With what country? Over what?

[Spartan_Warrior]

My main reason is that my son would have the privilege of being drafted to fight a senseless war Clinton was well on her way to starting.

Clinton was starting a war large enough to require the draft? With what country? Over what?

Yes. Russia. Emails. (And if that failed, Syria.)

[Ego]

Really? War with Russia? And a draft?

I'd be interested in evidence of that.

[jennypenny]

NYT 10/20/16: The Hawk on Russia Policy? Hillary Clinton, Not Donald Trump

"But it is clear that if Mrs. Clinton wins, she will enter the White House with a very personal grudge against Mr. Putin. He, in turn, has long harbored a grudge against her for her statements in 2011 calling into question the validity of a Russian parliamentary election."

[Spartan_Warrior]

What do you think comes of all that saber rattling--peace and brotherhood? She persistently accused Russia of hacks they were not involved in, and followed that up with at one point saying "we will treat cyber attacks like any other attack". Think about what that means. She also wanted a no-fly-zone in Syria. Look into how that would've played out. At one point Russia was doing emergency preparedness drills...

Make up your own mind. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Clinton+war+with+Russia

But if you think Clinton was some kind of peace candidate, you're (still) deluding yourself about her.

[Ego]

Clinton refuses to roll over on Russia>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DRAFT!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Trump seems like a reasonable alternative.

The fake news sites did their job.

http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-a ... daughters/

[Gilberto de Piento]

Make up your own mind. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Clinton+war+with+Russia

The LMGTFY thing is rude and doesn't further the conversation. Your choice of terms seems like it would bias the results anyway.

The NYT article was helpful, though I am still skeptical. I'm familiar with Clinton's hawkishness. It's a long way from tense relations to a draft.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Whatever. I'm out of this thread for now.