Relationship? Married? If so, why?

How to pass, fit in, eventually set an example, and ultimately lead the way.
Noided

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Noided »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
noided said: I had written a response to 7Wannabe5, but I think the forum ate it up... Well lets just say I don't agree with the "I have to force this person to be with me, or he will leave" attitude.
Right. One evening several weeks ago I was relaxing in the living room with my SO and his two young adult daughters. He was clipping his toenails and he looked up and around at the three of us and inquired in his guilt-provoking Iranian paternal (much like stereotypical Jewish maternal) manner "I wonder who will do this for me when I am old?" The three of us looked at each other and none of us said anything until the buck slowly came to a stand-still in front of me due to the gravitational pull of maturity. I put on my thinking-cap and made the suggestion "Maybe the John-of-the-future will do it." Since John-of-the-present is a strapping young man who is willing to do odd jobs for my SO for very low wages due to the fact that he apparently has a crush on one of his daughters, my suggestion was received with much hilarity and agreement by my semi-step-daughters and a deep sigh and dark comment along the lines of "This is what I expected. No gratitude. No loyalty." from my SO. Unfortunately, I am still suffering a bit from this event and that is why my last post was so negative. Sorry.


Okay, so if we are in agreement that guilt or duress are not the reasons why we want somebody to choose to remain in relationship with us, the question "What are the reasons we want somebody to want to remain in relationship with us?" The thing I have rather surprisingly found to be true as a low-earning, frugal woman dating at mid-life is that there are many men who do want to be appreciated for offering some level of financial support or advantages as part of the package they are offering up.

It really depends on how much you have a more practical view of the world vs. how much you have a more magical view of the world that informs you and others that you wish to be appreciated simply on the basis of the fact that you are a unique snowflake. The biochemicals that increase when we "fall in love" with somebody cause us to believe that the other person is special in a special way. These are basically the same biochemicals that promote the illusion that something is very important or interesting when you are under the influence of certain recreational drugs. So, it is very important that you ask yourself whether of not you are the romantic equivalent of somebody who can't hold his liquor before you make legal or financial commitments. However, if you are reasonably certain that you are capable of acting in your own self-interest, there is absolutely no rational reason why you shouldn't consider all sorts of variations on financial contracts as part of negotiating a relationship that is also inclusive of human pair-bonding behaviors. Entering into or somehow managing to maintain a relationship that is absolutely independent and even-Steven financially is in no way a guarantee or even a signal that your SO really "loves you for you" or some other magical notion like that which separates a human being from the assets and behaviors they bring to relationship.

Maintaining these sorts of magical romantic notions is even more likely to render you victim due to your inability to exit a bad relationship in the future. Every person is special. Not every special person is a good relationship partner for you. Somebody who is a good relationship partner for you this year may not be a good relationship partner for you 20 years from now and their enduring specialness will not alter this reality.
Can''t you stick to simple short sentences? It makes the discussion harder and less friendly for me and everyone else.

Just because man want to offer you some finantial security it doesn't mean that you have to take it or go along. I don't want that for me, but if you do, go ahead, its (mostly) a free world.

You don't have to lecture me on brain chemicals, I am not a 15 year old girl.

Another thing you say is, because I have my contract-less relationship, this does not mean that my SO loves me more then someone in a contract bound relationship. Is that even relevant?

Lets assume I do have a childish notion of love. Who do you is mostly likely to break up a relationship where they are unhappy? The unmarried person, who just talkes to their SO, and they go their separate ways OR the married person, who is thinking how is wealth will be affected if he decides to leave this person he does not like anymore?

Again, I have a hard time understanding your walls of text, so sorry if I am missing something. I don't think your arguments are helping the case for marriage.

User avatar
Sclass
Posts: 2791
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:15 pm
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Sclass »

JohnnyH wrote:I would say for most of the not yet retired men in this forum, who are considering children, the risks greatly outweigh the rewards and approach with extreme caution. Not only can you potentially lose nearly every asset in a divorce but I've seen retired PhDs forced to gain employment (to quote the opposing lawyer "even if it is minimum wage"). A bitter divorce can destroy your wealth (transfer, lawyer/legal fees, taxes...) and life (stress, lose custody/visitation of children, forced out of retirement, jail if you do not comply). If you end up with an alimony payment based on a previous wage earned (google Dave Foley divorce) you can end up an indentured servant for the rest of your life.

No relationship in my life so far has been able to overcome my fears of the above. Also, I think the rewards of marriage do not come close to justifying the risk to MOST FI people... Prenuptial routinely get thrown out be omnipotent judges and can be picked apart by future legal teams with far greater resources than those that created said
Sclass wrote:Strategically from an ERE perspective I could live cheaper alone. And I did for a good part of my life. But it was empty moving in and out of relationships on a yearly basis with mates that wanted to change me into Mr. Middle Class Dad of Two, salary getter, church tithe participant, bling buyer. Everyone seemed to have this five point agenda for changing SClass.
So you eventually met someone who didn't try to change you into all those things? Can I ask if this happened before or after you retired?
Yes. It's a quirk. I met her when I was 19. I dated her best friend. We became friends for a long time and we had no idea we'd do this. In fact, she thought I was kind of a circus clown in our social circle for a very long time. I think she saw enough of my relationships fail that she didn't want to attempt what others failed at. It's a fluke. not a good example of how to win at the love game. (Fail with everyone and see who is left)

I can see your conflict. It is a very big deal and you should be concerned. A spouse can make or break you.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9370
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

noided said: Again, I have a hard time understanding your walls of text, so sorry if I am missing something. I don't think your arguments are helping the case for marriage.
You are right. My arguments are not helping make the case for marriage.

My arguments are also not helping make the case for accepting financial support outside of legal marriage. My situation is rather unique because my SO not only wishes to offer me financial support, it is his clear strongly stated preference that I accept financial support from him and do not otherwise seek or continue employment. Therefore, I need to consider my own opportunity costs and security risks before accepting pre-nuptial agreement or detailed domestic partnership contract. I apologize for the fact that I was clearly attempting to get my own head straight about my own situation by babbling stream-of-consciousness on your thread.

One thing about my situation or experience that might really be relevant to your question is that I do believe that it is true that the older men get the more they want a wife (or non-legal domestic partner) and the harder or more "expensive" it becomes for them to get one. It is like there is some point around the age of 45 that the tables turn and single men start wanting marriage and single women start shunning it. I offered my current SO the option of a monogamous sexual relationship with separate living arrangements and independent finances and he turned me down.

In the very good book "Advice from an Old Mistress to a Young Wife" the author makes the statement "Marriage is for amateurs." I believe that this is a deeply true statement because it becomes very difficult to rationally choose to marry once you "know better" but it is also true that you are unlikely to succeed at marriage unless you simply do it for love.

I hope that I was more cogent this time? -lol

Noided

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Noided »

Much better :) The thread is not mine though, its everyones.

Your experience is something to consider when I am older. I am far far away from 45 :)

Peanut
Posts: 551
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:18 pm

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Peanut »

Interesting thread. Why get married? I would say marry because you love someone enough to want to give your relationship with them a fail-safe. Others may see marriage as a trap and think it unromantic to make it difficult for either party to get out of the relationship. But actually I think it is very romantic to promise fidelity when things turn sour. I say when and not if because all relationships turn sour at one point or another. The question then becomes are you willing to fix things so the relationship can flourish again? In a marriage you make this commitment to try and keep trying until you succeed, which in its best form means falling in love again.

There seems to be a lot of concern about divorce and its financial implications. The myth that 1 in two marriages end in divorce is just that. Better analysis has put the figure at 20-25% for first time marriages. I think if you choose wisely you can be confident your figure will be 0%.

On the financial question, my opinion is no doubt in the extreme minority, but I think it is petty not to join finances in marriage and maybe even in committed partnerships outside of marriage. And pettiness is not a quality that helps one in any relationship, so might as well jettison it.

George the original one
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by George the original one »

Peanut wrote:The myth that 1 in two marriages end in divorce is just that. Better analysis has put the figure at 20-25% for first time marriages.
Well, it's not quite a myth, rather only stating half the facts. 2nd & 3rd & 4th marriages often end in divorce, thus driving up the overall rate. Heck, a coworker has been married 5 times (twice widowed, twice divorced).

stand@desk
Posts: 398
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:40 pm

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by stand@desk »

A sub-subject of this thread would be to include the part of "remaining-married."

There are many reasons to get married as outlined in the previous posts, but to remain married, if you marry a good partner in the first place, you will need to take good care of yourself and your affairs and your spouse to keep the relationship positive. I find this as good motivation for keeping myself up.

I would also hypothesize that remaining single could encourage lonliness and isolation which are not good for one's long term health. If you live with a good influence that has good habits, you will benefit through osmosis and the same goes for your partner benefiting from you, so there is very good reason to stay healthy to encourage a long life!

slsdly
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by slsdly »

I agree with the last few posts. In this thread (among others) there is a lot of focus on protecting yourself through legal means, which of course is important to consider, but you don't really want to get into the position where you need to exercise those options! Choosing wisely, being empathic and emotionally available go a long way with people *in general*. The latter two are not exactly skills INTJs are known for, but I think they would pay off... I'm not exactly chomping at the bit to meet someone right now, but even if the worst happened, a court took everything from me, and says I should be able to earn more, well, I achieved ERE once (in theory, not there yet), now I am just on the second round on hard mode :P. Even if it is a lie, I like to tell myself things are possible. It is a much more pleasant way to live? And sometimes I am surprised.

User avatar
GandK
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by GandK »

Peanut wrote:... all relationships turn sour at one point or another. The question then becomes are you willing to fix things so the relationship can flourish again? In a marriage you make this commitment to try and keep trying until you succeed, which in its best form means falling in love again.
Yes. My mom told me when I was going through a rough spot, "Expect to fall in and out of love your whole life. Most people do. If you're lucky, it will be with the same person."

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9370
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

"Gandk said: Yes. My mom told me when I was going through a rough spot, "Expect to fall in and out of love your whole life. Most people do. If you're lucky, it will be with the same person.""

Strong co-sign (with obvious exception being if his name is Bill Sikes.) One of the most common things an emotionally retarded person will say to their partner before revealing that they either are already having an affair or they intend to commence having one as soon as they say what they are going to say is "I love you but I am not in love with you anymore."

I think focusing on divorce statistics is of limited use in determining the benefits of marriage because they do not take into account all the intact but thoroughly miserable marriages. I think the primary cause of stuck-in-miserable-marriage is people who are willing and able to keep their half of the relationship contract but are too wimpy to enforce contract on their SO. Therefore, IMO, a rational non-emotionally retarded way to end a relationship is to say something like "Either you stop writing bad checks on our joint account and agree to have sex with me on a regular basis or agree to engage in counseling towards resolution of these issues or I will choose to file for divorce within 6 months." The lucky people are those who never have to have these kinds of conversations but I believe they are few and far between. I honestly do not believe that there is any reliable method for choosing a partner that will preclude the ability/willingness to enforce contract as necessary.

henrik
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: EE

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by henrik »

7Wannabe5 wrote:I think focusing on divorce statistics is of limited use in determining the benefits of marriage because they do not take into account all the intact but thoroughly miserable marriages.
To be fair, they also don't take into account any of the satisfying relationships people have without getting married:) If you're talking about "determining the benefits of marriage", they are just as relevant.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9370
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Henrik said: To be fair, they also don't take into account any of the satisfying relationships people have without getting married:) If you're talking about "determining the benefits of marriage", they are just as relevant.
True. I think the best, most frugal, happiness maximizing arrangement might be sharing domestic space with a group of other amiable women and just having a steady, monogamous BF who comes over to pick me up on his motorcycle to spend the weekend camping with him and Wednesday night for dinner and sex. Of course, those who tend towards aspirational polygamy and/or the desire to have somebody else cook dinner for them might not prefer this arrangement themselves (sigh.)

The Old Man
Posts: 503
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:55 pm

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by The Old Man »

Having children is the only reason for marriage. If you don’t want children then there is no purpose in getting married. As others have stated the risks of divorce are far too great. Finally, in divorce the woman commonly gets custody of the children, so you will lose what was the only purpose of marriage in the first place. I consider marriage to be an obsolete institution.

If I was young and foolish and in love, then I would get married if the girl insisted on it. If I was settling (because I wanted children), then I would consider the risks far too great – both financial and losing the children – and stop my foolishness.

Dragline
Posts: 4436
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Dragline »

I thought that this was in interesting take on this subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eparlp-8uVo

I strongly agree with item #5 of the six in the video.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6851
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by jennypenny »

Yeah, I like the idea of viewing it as a small business, although sometimes (most of the time?) that can dominate the relationship and make it too platonic. To sustain the intimacy, I think you have to make sure to take time for the emotional stuff (communication, fun, sex) even if it means incorporating it into the plan and administering to that aspect as you would any other.

KMS
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:46 am

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by KMS »

General Snoopy wrote:Having children is the only reason for marriage. If you don’t want children then there is no purpose in getting married. As others have stated the risks of divorce are far too great. Finally, in divorce the woman commonly gets custody of the children, so you will lose what was the only purpose of marriage in the first place. I consider marriage to be an obsolete institution.

If I was young and foolish and in love, then I would get married if the girl insisted on it. If I was settling (because I wanted children), then I would consider the risks far too great – both financial and losing the children – and stop my foolishness.
Though your argument may be practically sound, you're dismissing any religious beliefs, as well as the feelings of commitment that may accompany that little piece of paper called a marriage license. I am not married myself, so in no way an expert, but I feel it is sad that marriage has become a business agreement more than a life-long commitment. Our government certainly doesn't offer great benefit in being married, which only supports your argument, and with a growing divorce rate, many are assuming they'll be divorced some day before they even slip a ring on their finger. However, the question should be asked that if people only want to marry IF they have children, why even marry at that point? Why do you feel it is necessary to marry in order to have children if there is nothing more to marriage than a piece of paper, a big party, & a possible loss of property & money?

I support marriage whole-heartedly & feel having money as a number 1 priority will cause more problems than solutions (even though I enjoy ERE immensely). There's a balance to be found between what is financially wise & emotionally wise, both should be accomplished when making the right decision.

The Old Man
Posts: 503
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:55 pm

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by The Old Man »

The best environment for raising children is within the context of marriage. For this reason (and only this reason) I support marriage and would prefer cultural/governmental policies to make the institution of marriage stronger.

Feminists are always fond of saying, “You can change your mind.” There was one example where this lady said she had three careers and three marriages. (Unfortunately, I am unable to locate the link.) With this kind of cavalier attitude to marriage, then as a man only a nutcase would choose marriage.

Note, my opinions are shaped by my experience in the USA specifically California. It is probably different in other countries.

henrik
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: EE

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by henrik »

General Snoopy wrote:The best environment for raising children is within the context of marriage.
Why? Where I live, the parents' marital status does not affect the children in any way in the legal sense. Is that different in the US? Or is it a tradition thing? Or an emotional thing?

theanimal
Posts: 2628
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:05 pm
Location: AK
Contact:

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by theanimal »

@Henrik- Yes, it's a US traditional thing.

I completely disagree with that notion as well though. The best environment to raise a kid is not 2 individuals, but in a community.

Chad
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Chad »

@theanimal
Yeah, the ideal is a very small community, but it's very difficult to pull off in our current mobile society.

Post Reply