Convince me that I should have children.

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C40
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Convince me that I should have children.

Post by C40 »

Convince me that I should have children.

I’m a male in my early 30s. I don't think I want to have children. I'm not 100% certain. I'd like to make up my mind more completely. I’m specifically looking for arguments and reasons FOR having children (NOT asking whether I should or shouldn’t). I already feel I shouldn’t, but it is an important subject and one where, if my opinion is going to change, it’s better for it to happen now than in 25 years. This is an important decision and not the type I’d make just based off forum recommendations. I’m looking for questions I should be asking myself, things I should considering, etc.

I value the opinions and suggestions from forum members here. There are many with similar personalities and thought processes - who might be more convincing for me or at least help lead my thoughts well. (My girlfriend, for example, is an ENFP and wants children very badly. Her reasons aren't convincing for me: broad things like "it's so special".. "It's the best thing in life"… “it will make you happier”.. etc..).



I’m not sure how much I should add about my own stance at the moment. (I don’t want to limit the scope of the thread or lead it down a specific path). The information below is not complete, it’s not an argument to refute, but just some background info on my current opinions.

1. My own family relationships (Which are pretty good.. I get along with my parents and siblings well, though we are not extremely close. My parents got divorced when I was a teenager, which was not particularly painful)

2. My experiences helping take care of children (a fair amount. My mom did daycare out of our home for many years. Not much here except that I am familiar with children and don’t have some kind of baby/child fear)

3. My experiences in relationships (fairly limited.. haven’t had a S.O. that I really expected to be with for a very long time)

4. My opinion that there are plenty / too many people on earth already

5. I do not default to following common norms or expectations… and I am very deliberate with my life. For most people, having children is the obvious path and a deviation from that happens only with a major decision. For me, having children only happens with a major and deliberate decision. (Others need reasons NOT to have children…. I need reasons TO have them)

6. I do think about the likelihood of being alone in my later years, and not having anyone to help/take care of me when needed. I don’t think this is something you can count on, and I don’t think it should be a reason to have kids.

7. I do ask myself if my desire to retire early may be influencing my opinion. Children would certainly increase my spending and require me to work longer. There is also the risk of a child becoming a great expense (extensive medical care, financial support as adults, etc.) This has some influence, but I certainly don’t think it is a primary cause… And, barring long term medical needs, I would likely be able to limit the costs. I don’t think money is having much influence on me here – I certainly don’t think that wanting to retire early should/would cause me to decide not to have children – I see money and retirement more as a way to achieve the things that I already want to do.

8 - It may be more that children could prevent or interfere with some of the things I think about doing after retiring (van touring, hiking, travel). To me it would limit options in the future.

9 - When I imagine the future (next 10-20 years), here is what is in it:
~50% of the time: a girlfriend/wife
~ 10% of the time: children
I don’t often imagine further into the future (into and past my 70s..)
Last edited by C40 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jacob
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by jacob »

It will move your entire focus away from yourself for better or worse. It can be a source of personal growth, especially for an INTJ who values independence, to have people depending on you. I don't want to go so far as to say you will now be living for their sake because I think that's a modern idea and certainly not all parents feel that way anyway. In any case it means that the next many years will be subject to constraints. Even pets can constrain though.

It can be a meaningful experience (but so can many other things) although research/surveys suggest that children increases meaning while reducing happiness. (Changing diapers is meaningful but not fun.)

I guess the primary reason to have children is that you enjoy parenting enough to sign up for the next twenty years. You already know what you're getting into given (2). It's the only thing that's within your control---your joy of parenting. The rest is guideable but ultimately random, e.g. your kids might disown you in old age, or leave the country never to return, they might turn out to be jerks or criminals, etc. Blood can be thinner than water.

ohcanada
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by ohcanada »

Ask jennypenny

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C40
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by C40 »

I'm hoping she will chime in

dot_com_vet
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by dot_com_vet »

I was in your boat before, two kids now.

- Ability to relive your childhood. I find the neighborhood park a great place to relax with the family.

- Your older family will die. Kids helps offset that.

- Kids could really complement an ERE lifestyle. Look at MMM.

I know childless people older than me, and they are living a full life. There's pros and cons to both.

Dragline
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by Dragline »

If you need to be convinced, you probably shouldn't go there.

Many people prefer animals these days.

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C40
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by C40 »

Dragline wrote:If you need to be convinced, you probably shouldn't go there.

Many people prefer animals these days.
Good and succinct point.

To add to my original post, I haven't actually thought about children very much. This has to to with being single most of the time. I've generally expected it was something I would think about later on.. (when in more serious relationships).. and kept on thinking this... and maybe eventually just assumed I wasn't going to because I wasn't progressing closer in relationships or wasn't thinking about it very much? (It may be that I have actually thought about it just as much as most people do, but not as much as I would think about something like this)

chipmunk
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by chipmunk »

There's a certain "circle of life" aspect to having kids. You were once a kid and had parents and grandparents. If you have (grand)kids then you would get to experience life as a (grand)parent. You can have similar experiences with kids that are not your direct offspring but it might not be the same.

billc
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by billc »

Currently have a 6 month old. I can't come up with a reason why you should have a kid. Frankly I'm having a hard time remembering why I thought it was a good idea in the first place.

Obviously 6 months is a short time to evaluate such a thing - but so far there are moments that are funny/enjoyable. It's mostly dumb stuff like funny sounds or faces. On the net - the loss of freedom is extremely painful and not worth the enjoyable moments (though perhaps compounded by the miserable winter).

Unless things improve drastically - I'm not inclined to have another.

JamesR
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by JamesR »

Sebastian Marshall sort of argues that "You owe it to your ancestors"
I'm really, really grateful to the scientists and engineers and inventors and builders and artists that came before us. We'd be living in forests and jungles and caves if it weren't for them. And I'm grateful for the long line of my ancestors that survived and thrived to lead to me. I figure some of them must have lived under really desperate circumstances, gone through all sorts of struggle and strife and misery, but they still were able to have and raise their children that eventually became my great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents, and so on. If one link in that chain isn't there, I'm not here. So, wow, I'm so grateful for my ancestors doing that.

So I'd like to pay it forwards. I'll build some stuff that will be used in our lifetimes, and then will help all generations henceforth. I'll have some children and help build the next line of humanity, and all lines after that.
(http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/why-bu ... e-humanity)
I do feel some gratitude and a bit of a debt to all those who came before, and part of that debt is continuing the line of life forwards. Y'know how hard it was for people to have and raise kids throughout history? When I hear people saying they don't want kids, not because they're working on world-changing stuff like Albert Einstein, but just because they think they'd be happier without kids... I don't know man, it shocks me. There's been a chain of people brutally struggling and striving forwards throughout history, and you're comfortable breaking that chain? That's... that's... well, that's something I'm not comfortable doing.
(http://sebastianmarshall.com/determine- ... to-live-by)

However, I think anyone planning to be a parent should have the right kind of expectations. First and foremost, your kid does not owe you anything! (I detest parents that expect love or old age support, and use emotional guilt and other tactics to get that)

Personally I eventually want kids because I think I'd be a great teacher, and help my kids reach their full potential, and because I'm interested in seeing what they'll achieve.
Last edited by JamesR on Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

workathome
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by workathome »

How about you find a woman you truly love and want to make a family first? THEN you can worry about whether or not you want to have kids :D
Last edited by workathome on Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

George the original one
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by George the original one »

> To add to my original post, I haven't actually thought about children very much.

Go spend time with children before you make a decision. Volunteer at daycare or coaching or church or something like that. Take nieces & nephews on a trip.

I know that I enjoy happy, alert children, but can't tolerate the ugly periods. And babies/toddlers are totally uninteresting to me because I can't communicate with them... to me, they're harder than pets!

Some will say that shaping the child into an adult is very rewarding and I get that. Unfortunately the same people never talk about how unrewarding it is when there's a fail or how much your life changes in unpleasureable ways if the child comes with extra challenges (example: high functioning autism spectrum).

George the original one
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by George the original one »

workathome wrote:Modern liberal atheism is net destructive for intelligent people.
Don't go down this discussion route, please. Us atheists have a strongly different opinion.

workathome
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by workathome »

George the original one wrote:>
Go spend time with children before you make a decision. Volunteer at daycare or coaching or church or something like that. Take nieces & nephews on a trip.
That's bad advice, men don't tend to really enjoy spending a lot of time with other people's offspring, but still retain a strong desire for their own.

George the original one
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by George the original one »

workathome wrote:
George the original one wrote:>
Go spend time with children before you make a decision. Volunteer at daycare or coaching or church or something like that. Take nieces & nephews on a trip.
That's bad advice, men don't tend to really enjoy spending a lot of time with other people's offspring, but still retain a strong desire for their own.
So you're saying he should go into parenthood with no practical experience?!? LOL, yeah, that will work.

steelerfan
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by steelerfan »

I am older with 2 sons. My wife and I wouldn't trade anything to not have them in our lives. That said they cost a bundle. While I read here about raising kids in an ERE lifesyle I think you need to be aware that your kids will eventually have friends and peers that will be doing things/taking trips and they will want to live that lifestyle. And you will want to provide it to them. We have priceless memories of Disneyland and Universal Studios and trips to Yellowstone and the beach. Daycare if needed is also very expensive. We spent over 20K one year for newborn daycare and probably well over 100K for the the daycare, camps sports. Anybody not on board with this will be dismayed.

My best friend and his wife (same age as us) are childless by choice. Its a lot easier to be selfish when you are not tied down and it is alot easier to travel and accumulate money. He would not trade places with me and I would not trade places with him. He has total freedom. I am staying younger by living through the lives of my kids.

Neither is better but if you have to ask the question then as people have said you already know your best move...

I hear people saying it is possible but I wouldn't be raising my kids in a tiny apartment. A lot of people grew up poor and never knew how consumerism deprived they were though so I could be full of shit. At the end of the day I would not scale back their lives for my idea of a dream life.

workathome
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by workathome »

George the original one wrote: So you're saying he should go into parenthood with no practical experience?!? LOL, yeah, that will work.
Well, usually grandparents tend to offer to help out, but yeah... that's how it works dude. No bachelors required to change diapers and play with blocks.

lilacorchid
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by lilacorchid »

Two things I'll add:

1. If you need to be convinced to have children, it's probably not a great idea. Get a dog or a fish.

2. You don't have to have more than one.

I always knew I wanted to be a mother, and that's what got us through years of infertility and had us spending thousands of dollars on a dream. That being said, even if I could just have a few shots of vodka and whip up a kid, I don't think I would. One has been plenty for us.

And edit to add: When we were facing a child free life, it was much easier to avoid the consumer machine. 99% of ads that were out there when we watched something were targeted at people with kids (mini vans, disney vacations, diapers, etc) and they just didn't apply. Also, we now have a little human who triggers the pleasure part of your brain when you make them smile. It's easier to make them smile with shinies! ;)

jacob
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by jacob »

Maybe you can also google a list of reasons NOT to have children, read through them, and see if you strongly disagree with any of the line items. If you find one---better more than one---maybe that would be a good reason for you to have them?

The Old Man
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Re: Convince me that I should have children.

Post by The Old Man »

Whether to have children will be a decision made by your wife (and I don’t mean girlfriend). You need to have this discussion before you get married and not after. If your wife wants children, then have children. If she doesn’t, then don’t. If it’s a question where she won’t marry you because you don’t want children, then you have a decision to make and the answer will depend on whether you want to marry the girl. Even with all this she may decide to marry you regardless (even though you said you don’t want children) and then she may change her mind. At which point it is either divorce or children.

You don’t seem to be ready for children. So, for you when you have the discussion make it clear that you do not want children. If it comes down to whether the girl will leave you or not based on the decision then base your decision on the girl. She could very easily walk out on you.

Benefits:
(1) Married men are happier than singles.
(2) Married men live longer than singles.
(3) Chance of divorce is reduced when there are children involved.
Last edited by The Old Man on Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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