ERE and Pets

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Spartan_Warrior
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

lilacorchid wrote:And not to be a wet blanket, but if your girlfriend is a spendy pet-person and you are not, she may not be the droid you are looking for. I hope you two can come to a happy solution for the both of you!
LOL. You may be right. She's not ordinarily spendy, and I really love her a lot, but she's being ridiculously pig-headed about this. Apparently pets are her weakness. I do not want a dog at all. I don't want the responsibility and financial liability right now, and in a few years when I first retire I definitely do not want the responsibility. I want some period in my life where I'm completely free of daily, geographically-anchoring obligations. She doesn't seem to appreciate this, and it's now come out that she doubts if my retiring will "ever happen". (Or won't happen soon enough, or something. She is not mathematically inclined, to the point where she refuses to even look at my numbers or try to understand what I'm saying, so she doesn't seem to understand that "failing" would mean I retire in 9 or 10 years instead of 8.)

The relationship is in bad shape at the moment. I think she's being really childish. I've offered multiple compromises, like 1) if it must be a puppy, waiting until we have kids (and are already tied down, like JP said), or 2) if it must be right now, getting/rescuing an older dog (nearer the end of its lifespan) so it's not as lengthy a commitment, or 3) just doing pet-sitting, dog-walking, or volunteering at a shelter to get the same doggie fix but for free, or net income. I feel like any of these is a sacrifice for me, as I'd rather have no dog. She, on the other hand, won't budge an inch or offer any concession whatsoever. It's Jack Russell puppy or bust.

I don't want to lose hope, I really like her, but things aren't looking good. I never would've expected a (hypothetical) dog could undo a relationship. Sigh.

</rant>

At least all this has come up before she actually moved in. Eh, in retrospect, it's probably childish of me to even post all this, but I need ERE commiseration badly.

George the original one
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by George the original one »

You learn the most about people when the chips are down. Acid-test, so to speak.

llorona
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by llorona »

@SW: Weren't you the one who brought up the idea of getting a dog if your girlfriend would re-home the reptiles?! You can't dangle that in front of her, then retract and call her childish!

Hope you guys can work it out. But if not, you're right -- it's better to find out your incompatibilities now, rather than after moving in together, getting married, etc.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Illorana: See, that's just it, I never promised anything. To me it was a brief hypothetical discussion. Then, literally the next day, she's all like, "Got a table at a reptile show so I can sell all my reptiles!" And I'm like, Um, okay, but I never agreed to getting a dog...

I can see why she feels somewhat betrayed though. She evidently had the same impression as you. To a long-deliberating INTJ like me bringing up an idea and agreeing to move forward with it are two separate things...

Hottentot
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Hottentot »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:I can see why she feels somewhat betrayed though. She evidently had the same impression as you. To a long-deliberating INTJ like me bringing up an idea and agreeing to move forward with it are two separate things...
Yes, you need to be clear about that with her. Most people will have the same impression.

Seneca
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Seneca »

A JRT is a difficult breed, not only hyper but destructive. They were bred to chase, dig out and kill rodents.

Like Jacob said, dogs are a big lifestyle commitment. They're a bigger impediment to travel than even children, for example. If they are that negative to you and she's that positive, I consider that a serious relationship issue.

Definitely something you must work out.

lilacorchid
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by lilacorchid »

I wouldn't ask her to sell her animals and get a new animal (this would be a pet TOGETHER, no matter how you guys decide to care for it) unless things are really serious.

These are good things to find out now, even if it seems terrible. You will either work it out and be happy or you will not and find someone better for each of you. It is better now then when you living together.

JasonR
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by JasonR »

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Last edited by JasonR on Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SkaraBrae
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by SkaraBrae »

Spartan_Warrior wrote: I never would've expected a (hypothetical) dog could undo a relationship. Sigh.
Better a hypothetical dog now than a real one down the road, or something even more life-impacting.

I second JasonR's questioning of her eagerness to sell her existing reptiles, although I suspect she is wrapped up in the honeymoon stage hormones of "twoo wuv" at the thought of moving in with you. Bear in mind, one couple I know is in the process of reluctantly rehoming her very difficult cat to her parents because it won't tolerate her fiance. They are 15,000% in love, as most engaged couples are, but this is still really, really hard for her. As in, she still is going around telling everyone it's "just visiting Mom and Dad for a little while", when it's obvious to everyone it's not and cannot come back. (They're planning on kids in the future.)

Before getting too far into the planning to move in together stage with your belle, I'd probe deeply about her expectations of what life living together will be like, what kind of lifestyle you will share, how much you will travel together (or apart), what kinds of vacations you'll take, how much time you will spend together, what kinds of things you will do, who handles what kinds of household tasks once you share a space, how much she expects each of you to work, etc. Listen closely to the answers and feelings you hear being expressed in response. Contemplate (although NTs don't need to be told to mull things over and forecast probable future outcomes!) and come to your own conclusion.

I suspect you will find some unrealistic fantasies when you do this, if you can get her to be actually honest. Most people have them -- the point is that we talk about them with our partner and realize them for what they are. And if it turns out you're not right for each other, yes, it's better to find out sooner than later. I know your relationship isn't near this stage yet, but I'm always amazed at the number of people who never discussed kids, careers, gender roles, or finances before getting married. Recipe for disaster. Though neither my husband nor I are religious, I made sure we attended a marriage education/preparation program put out by a local church before we tied the knot. He will still tell you it is one of the best things we've ever done together. It is well worth the money to attend such a program.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Well, after a very rocky start to the weekend, I think we've smoothed things over, insofar as we're no longer fighting or talking about breaking up. (For the record, this was our first such major fight since we became official in December 2012.) On the other hand, she has not budged an inch in terms of her desire for a JRT puppy, she still seems to be avoiding any hint of compromise or even talking about the problem (which is what I find childish), and the only real decision we reached is that we won't be moving in together any time soon.

Although JasonR's comment did make me laugh my ass off (and curious to see said gravatar pic!), I tend to agree with SkaraBrae in terms of her eagerness to sell the reptiles. I think the whole pet situation has been, not the only, but one of the major sticking points for moving in together and I think she was excited at the thought of having that resolved--especially in her favor.

When she told me she was going to sell the reptiles, she noted that she had already been getting burned out on them even before I mentioned anything. Also, the reptiles are more of a hobby than real pets, even for her. She breeds and sells them at reptile shows (and has tried to convince me that I should like them because she is able to cover her expenses and even cut a profit this way--which is a decent point, and more than can be said for a dog).

Finally, it's worth noting that she recently (as in a few months ago) lost her childhood Jack Russell Terrier. She lives with her parents and presumably they won't let her get another one while living there. So I think that whole "replace the deceased pet" urge is playing a role as well.

(Not gonna lie, I also think the fact that she lives with her parents is playing a role in contributing to a certain level of immaturity--not only in this pet situation, but in other ways I've noticed. Another reason I wanted her to move in with me, or at least out of there.)

We attended the reptile show Saturday and she was able to sell some--but not all--of her geckos. Afterward she said this reinvigorated her interest in breeding them somewhat. For my part, it made me (a little) more comfortable with the reptiles. I'm now thinking the small dinosaurs might be the better alternative after all. (Though, I have not made up my mind!!)

One result of all this is that we are talking a little more about the kind of stuff @SkaraBrae mentioned, in terms of our future lifestyles and stuff like that. We're still not on the same page, but I think we're both talking about the same book at least. I think a large part of her resistance is still based on skepticism that I'll be able to retire early, leading her to believe we'll be "waiting" for something that never comes. Like I said, she doesn't understand that "failure" for my ERE plan would mean a delay of one or two years.

Anyway, sorry, it seems I've turned this into a journal thread instead of the original topic...

SkaraBrae
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by SkaraBrae »

Honestly, in terms of impact on your lifestyle, my bet is the reptiles would be less invasive than, well, any dog or almost any other pet except maybe fish. And if she is able to make them mostly self-sustaining, so much the better. My husband's Magic: the Gathering card hobby is like this, so while I would rather that the money he spends on them goes elsewhere, I realize he's getting very good value out of what he does spend and that large parts of it are self sustaining. (f/ex: go to tournament -> win prize of store credit -> use store credit for next tournament/more cards. Take cards you won -> trade them for better cards -> go to tournament -> rinse and repeat.)

The part about her losing her dog recently sheds a LOT of light on her stubbornness about a JRT in particular. The only advice I can offer on this is to wait this out longer and see if she still feels the same a few months down the road.

You mentioned she lives with her parents. Has she ever lived on her own or with roommates? If not...be prepared for some massive upheaval if you do move in together. She's not just learning and growing in your relationship, she's also learning how to be a self-reliant adult. I went straight from my parents' home to moving in with my boyfriend (we rented an apartment together), and the first four months were BRUTAL. We survived and are now happily married, but we're also both radically different now than we were then. We grew together instead of apart -- not everyone is so lucky to have that basic compatibility and share that kind of commitment. And not everyone wants to patiently wait for their partner to grow up in certain areas. (Also, if she's never been on her own, be prepared for her lifestyle discussions/plans to change once she hits "the real world" and has some more experience under her belt.)

Forgive me for the unsolicited and possibly irrelevant relationship advice. Please feel free to ignore if it's unwarranted. I am glad you are getting a clearer picture of what's actually going on with her, though, and hope everything works out for the ultimate best for you both.

dragoncar
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by dragoncar »

workathome wrote:Women like little dogs as surrogates for children.
Me too... much cheaper than children. Considering a dog once I retire (no time for one now so I'd feel terrible leaving it cooped up all day).

Or maybe just a small-scale dog walking business!

Anyways, I jumped the gun and haven't read all the posts here. Hoping the answer is that they are well within my budget. Not to sound cold hearted but I'm pretty sure I could handle putting a pet down rather than incur large medical expenses near end of life.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@dragoncar: I derailed my own thread. I think the general conclusion was that pets are a relatively small, scalable expense financially, but can have big impacts in terms of lifestyle, depending on the pet, its needs and lifespan. My personal conclusion was that I'm not ready for a pet because I want to travel after I retire. The rest of the thread is just me venting about my troubles reaching a compromise with my girlfriend, who wants a Jack Russell Terrier puppy.

@SkaraBrae: We both lived on our own, with roommates, throughout college, and then moved back in with parents afterwards (surprise, we are both 2008 graduates). She's been there since. I saved up and bought a house where I've lived alone the last two years. Neither of us has ever lived with a significant other. We're both aware that there will be what we call an "acclimation period" after such a significant lifestyle change. That was yet another of my points, actually--that we needed time getting used to each other before even thinking about introducing an animal.

I'm with you at this point--she seems content to let the issue lie for now, so I'm going to do the same. Maybe after a few more months, the whole "must replace my JRT" urge will have subsided enough to maybe reach some reasonable compromises.

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Ego
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Ego »

SW, I'm glad you posted this because I've long been curious about my tenants obsessions with their pets. It prompted me to look into it further.

PDF http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/nichola ... al2008.pdf

Why do people have pets?

1) As a surrogate for human contact, interaction, and companionship.
2) As protection.
3) As an impetus to go out and interact with other humans or walk.

It won't be long before robots will be assuming these functions without needing to be fed, groomed, quieted or cleaned up after.

Surrogate for contact. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNw4oicWmWU
Protection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZPRsrwumQ
Go for a Walk: Combine the two videos above. Now imagine it in human doll form.

We attribute human characteristics to non-human animals or things (anthropomorphize) for two reasons.

1) Societal needs: To make up for inadequate connection with other humans
2) Effectance needs: To understand, control and predict our environment.

Those who anthropomorphize not only believe their object (pets) have human characteristics, they believe they have moral agency. Consciousness, intention, desire and regret are all characteristics people project onto their pets.

So why should I care? If someone seems to overly anthropomorphize or have a great need for a pet, it may indicate a problem I should be aware of. If I am curious as to why they're doing it, I may be able to help.

Seneca
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Seneca »

Boston Dynamics has done some amazing stuff.

My DW is pet crazy, and I tell you, there is no way a robot would supplant it for her. An example- motorcycles are arguably the "robot" equivalent of horses. She loves horses, I love motorcycles.

Spartan- take note, there is a good chance she's repressing.

Hottentot
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Hottentot »

There are people who love dogs/cats and people who love animals.
I love both LOL

But seriously. I know crazy people who think their dogs are people, they even let the dog sit in the front seat of the car while they seat on the back!!@$%

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Ego
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Ego »

At risk of beating a dead cat....

Start at about 46 min :30 sec

http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/

EnglishSaver
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by EnglishSaver »

Pets are a big responsibility so I think people should think before they buy one (or in a perfect world look for a rescue dog) as you need to think about their food, care, training classes and vet's bills/ insurance.

I have a rescue JRT and she was a pain when she was a puppy so maybe adopting a slightly older JRT dog of about 2 years old might be easier as they may have been toilet trained, able to walk on a lead etc...

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Ego
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Ego »

Cat bites linked to depression....
If you are a woman who's been bitten by a cat, there's nearly a 50 percent chance that you will be diagnosed with depression at some point, the study suggests.
http://www.popsci.com/article/science/c ... depression

lazyboy
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by lazyboy »

@Ego
1) As a surrogate for human contact, interaction, and companionship.
2) As protection.
3) As an impetus to go out and interact with other humans or walk.
1) Societal needs: To make up for inadequate connection with other humans
2) Effectance needs: To understand, control and predict our environment.
sorry but I don´t get your points. To me this looks like you say everyone with animals has to compansate for something.

1. there may be some poor humans but most people with animals have more social contacts than people without.
2. you missed the point that some just like natur and animals. Just as others like to travel or read books.
3. what about just beeing used to beeing around animals. We had animals as long as I could remember. Rabbits (yes we ate them), fish, dogs and so on.
4. last but not least, what about people that just take responsibility? Like the neighbor who found the cats in a trash bin? Buy the way that´s how I got my dog because someone told me this poor creature is going to the dog pound.

Maybe I´m doing you wrong but to me your points sound the same way as someone without children telling someone else why he got some.

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