ERE Purgatory

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Hoplite
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Post by Hoplite »

If there is some purgatory effect as one approaches FI or ERE, that might be a good sign. Employment can distract or even anaesthetize a person from seeing underlying problems. The default hope of some is that a job will distract them long enough so that they die or become too old to care before the job disappears, not that they always make this choice consciously. I recall Dave Ramsey once pointing out that you will leave your job; you will quit, you will get fired, you will die or you will become disabled, but you will leave.
I can sympathize (empathize really) with the OP’s problem; not all obligations cease with FI, and some can really drag you down, not necessarily to boredom but to a lack of motivation. Obligations are a psychic form of debt.
Another difficulty is that we’re conditioned to believe that money (getting and spending) can buy a life, when what it actually provides is more and more powerful distractions, similar to the illusion of endless employment. There is a natural and necessary letdown, even a dark night of the soul, when it becomes inescapably clear that having money, even FI money, really won’t give you a life worth having. Even a casual observation of those with plenty of money bears this out.
As usual, @Maus offers a thoughtful and insightful perspective. One thing I would add is that although complete rebellion may not be desirable or even possible, as to the followers of Spartacus, revolt was hardly the only path to crucifixion; apparently it wasn’t even necessary to do anything wrong to end up that way. And what about the slaves who didn’t revolt, did they die more pleasantly? If they did, is that what we’re after? And if it is, then Seneca’s preference for suicide as a good ending is understandable, it being the most reliable method for controlling the circumstances of one’s exit, though off-limits for many, including me :)


Fred Tracy
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Post by Fred Tracy »

The best solution to all of this is IMO meditation. We INTJ-folks have quite expansive internal realities, and there a lot of fun to be had in our heads, but as we have all recognized here - there is a limit. Even if you master everything, understand all the abstractions, etc., there is a time where things can cease to prove "interesting".
Meditation brings about a different paradigm. No longer are things required to be "interesting" - even the act of breathing, of existing, becomes more satisfying than even the toughest philosophical or psychological problem.
It's a matter of mind & ego or presence & being. Presence/being is more satisfying, especially if you achieve ERE and get enough time to consider life without the distraction of work. At that point I think many of us can finally start living.


livinlite
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Post by livinlite »

This is a great thread..and clearly points the way to how ERE is such a different focus and experience than the typical personal finance stuff.
When I was reading Jacob's book, I kept feeling that interconnectedness between the ERE lifestyle and the contemplative/philosophically-informed way of being in the world. In many ways, ERE is simply a cover for living a semi-monastic existence and searching out other forms of validation in the world that are intrinsic rather than extrinsic. It is itself a meditation on what is possible: how to be in the world, but not of the world; how to find balance in a world that seems so far out of it; and how to live responsibly given the predicament we are in as a species. I love that it can be read as an adaptation of classic taoist/zen precepts brought into the modern world that leaves behind all the pomp and circumstance of the middle-class new-agey stuff. And that it is scalable to one's own station in life; that it works where you have responsibility to family and it works where you have goals or tolerances that include a 9-5 job or a free-lance existence. It allows us to be where we are and make the most of what we have physically and spiritually from a very conscious place..by asking us to consider our actions very carefully and live intentionally.
But that is also where it can come off the rails for some people. If you are only following ERE as a prescription to get you to the point of not having to work anymore, then you've really missed the opportunity. It's sort of like the person who sits down to meditate and develops a very focussed mind, but does so from a place of ego and so doesn't sink into the growth of non-growth that is possible when meditation is put in context as a tool rather than a goal. In this, as in everything, the how and the why matter so much more than the what..and yet, if you don't do the what, then you'll likely never get to the how and why..aka..meditate daily, but don't get hung up on the sanctity of the practice..aka..do your ERE lifestyle, but know why you are doing it and do it with a purpose that opens rather than one that closes or narrows.
This gets real esoteric, really quick.
But even in the short time I've been on these boards, I've seen its a place folks are willing to go..and that's pretty cool.
To that end, I'll link to my poetry site. I haven't been posting much lately as my mind has been on more organizational aspects than creative ones lately, but maybe some of you would enjoy it.. http://amusingself.wordpress.com


jacob
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Post by jacob »

Also, this bears on another frustration of mine ... finding autobiographies of people I can learn something from. It's almost impossible... that is not to say I know everything but rather that few have written about the things I want to know.
If we look at a typical life progression in the western world(*), it's birth, school, family, job, retirement, death. Most spend a lifetime on this. What do you when you reached retirement by 30? If death is not an option, what then?
(*) I believe India has a more elaborate theory on this involving what one should focus on. Maybe Surio can enlighten us?
In particular, as Hoplite remarked, a job (and consumption) often serves as an adequate distraction from existential problems. The real question is whether you can distract yourself from your existential crisis without a job or without consumption?
[My solution to existentialist problems is to ignore them as being unsolvable, alternatively find some substitute religious argument, here stoic. This is not very helpful to the inquiring mind (but why is this so?).]
Also, does meditation really help all day long ... presumably you're not meditating all the time ... [but 'normal' people are working/thinking about what they're going to buy next all the time.


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jennypenny
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Post by jennypenny »

Re: meditation

I think it does help. I go to Mass in the morning (religious version of meditation), and then go to the gym for a couple hours. The combination seems to quiet my mind enough for the rest of the day. If I skip a day, I find my mind churns endlessly all day. I'm constantly calculating outcomes and possible variations on almost everything I do (can't think of a better way to say that). I assumed it was an INT* thing. Maybe it's just my own undiagnosed issue.


livinlite
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Post by livinlite »

Meditation helps all day long to the extent that it helps bring about a fundamental shift in one's worldview away from dualistic conceptions and I-Thou relationships to one where life is seen more as a dance of the natural order of things. It lends perspective and gives a framework for making meaning. And it doesn't have to be on the cushion or in a zendo. Anytime we are aware of our inner world and the lens we are creating to bring the outer world into our inner world, we are meditating. And when awareness also encompasses that "we" that is aware; there's the fun stuff.
For adventures in meaning-making from a secular viewpoint, check out David Foster Wallace's speech "This is Water" (available online and in print).
@Jacob, RE: "[My solution to existentialist problems is to ignore them as being unsolvable, alternatively find some substitute religious argument, here stoic. This is not very helpful to the inquiring mind (but why is this so?)." Have you read Tolstoy's "A Confession"? or EF Schumacher's "A Guide for the Perplexed"? Both are excellent, though often overlooked, texts that deal with those issues. Tolstoy ultimately could not "ignore them". Others have had varying success. My personal opinion based on the experiences I've had is that ignoring them never fully burns them out; acceptance is the only way to put these issues to rest once you've let the cat out of the bag.
There's a reason many more Western philosophers committed suicide than Eastern..the fear and trembling unto death is a bitch to deal with if you can't find some way to split through the dualism.


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

Great discussion
I actually think there are conscious and subconscious issues here.
Interestingly i think i have something to add because I am pretty much ERE, have lots of time to myself and i am also interested in Eastern Religion and a qualified meditiation teacher (lol yes you can become qualified at meditation and there are many different kinds - not just buddhist loving kindness type mindlefullness. Medical doctors prescribe secular meditation for anxiety)
Back to conscious and subconscious. Ekhart Tolle describes the idea like this. His entire life was pretty much a succession of failures. Not smart enough to get into medicine so he studied science. Not good enough looking to get a girlfriend so he bcame 'interesting'. Not great in holding down a job so he became internal. As he became internal he found solace and some insight, from this insight he became famous, rich and despite his eccentric look - the ladies seem to like him these days!
Its a bit like a rock star. Outcast in school, beaten up.....some break through becaome heroes and have harems...check out alice cooper if you dont belive me.
So in essense we are all like this
ERE for me can be seen one way - a series of great success's......great job, great savings, great investments, able to retire early, loving life.....(conscious outward presentation)
or
Failure at longevity in thw workplace. Cant really take authority always courted conflict, led to anxiety despite being highly functioning, needed to be more consistent and avoind mood swings at home and at work, became more internal, understood myself more, became more forgiving of weaknesses, and then looked and courted my options, started radical savings plan for the last 10 years banking 60 pct of a large income knowing that everyday in a job was a good one for me and that i needed to make hay (subconscious reality)
Bottom line for me - is ERE is about survival. I cannot go back to full time work without being unhappy. Lucky for me the whole ere has huge benefits. Not only do i dont have to work so much, my mental health is better, i am a better father and husband, i consume less and I feel i know myself more.
So for me ERE isnt a choice any more. Its fundamental to who i am
Thats me anyway
Aussie
btw - meditation just means being mindfull and it can help you realise your subconscious mind. You dont need to be sitting on a mat chanting to do this. Being mindful is a 24 hour thing. Walk down the street and be conscious at noticing things. After a few years like anything else you can become good at being mindfull. But you need to exercise your mind or youll lose it!
Best combo - mindfulness and 30 minutes cardio per day....sweat is the best way to think clearly.


Hoplite
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Post by Hoplite »

@aussierogue,

+1 on Alice Cooper-it bleeds through the music like no other.

+1 also on ERE as a survival mechanism; it allows one to live a humane life without sleeping on a park bench (not that there's anything wrong with that) and learning to eat weeds and boiled squirrels (which is fine if that's your taste).


Maus
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Post by Maus »

@Hoplite

I had to smile because one of the things I plan on doing more post-FI is foraging for wild edible plants. When I was a scout many years ago, I was able to identify more than 25 native California species that were both tasty and nutritious. Buon appetito!


Scott 2
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Post by Scott 2 »

I think having a sense of shared purpose with other people is key to creating that feeling of excitement that makes every day great. IMO it does not really matter what is driving it - beer, tennis, helping the poor, extreme saving, whatever.
I'm to the point now, where if someone ask me if I want to do something, I just agree and go for it full force. Even if I think it's dumb. As long as we're all bought in, it turns out to be a good time.
From what I can see, all of life is pretty much "same shit, different day". Once you and your loved ones are not on the edge of death, none of it really matters. We're just sacks of water doing stuff till we can't. Might as well pretend whatever I am doing now is the most important thing in the world, and make the most of it.
An optimist might say "life is a journey, not a destination."


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

Nice take scott
another way of saying living in the moment i guess.
What was that song from the 70's
"love the one you're with"


Chad
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Post by Chad »

I really struggle with what Scott stated, but completely agree. I'm always over analysing everything to where it becomes a task and not something to enjoy.


Scott 2
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Post by Scott 2 »

The analysis is the fun part :) I assume most here are prone to it. I derive great satisfaction from breaking something down and understanding it.
I find with the right group, this can be a strength. Other people give me a reality check when I need it. Meanwhile, I help them avoid doing things that are obviously irrational, at least to me.
Left to my own devices, I will definitely go down the paralysis by analysis rabbit hole. Books and forums are a huge problem for me. I'll spend hundreds of hours reading on something, long past the point of diminishing returns. After more than a decade on the internet, I am aware of this weakness, but I often can't help myself.
Back to the original poster - my experience is going through the motions at work, even if you do it well, is really unpleasant. I understand not everyone is like this, but I am. It sounds like you could be too.
The only way I can be happy with a job is if I am constantly trying to get better at it. At best, I derive fleeting satisfaction from the work completed or the paycheck. It is all about making the creation process and resulting end product "better". Knowing what I do helps my coworkers provide for their families will help for short gaps in time, but long term, I have to get that fix of continuous improvement.
My suggestion - invest more of yourself in your job as long as you are working it. Groom your replacement, create a process that will ensure their success. Make it a goal to make yourself completely replacable. When that is done, you have earned the right to move on.
When that time comes, if it turns out you are not ready to - you are more valuable than ever.


Maus
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Post by Maus »

I understand what @Scott2 is driving at in his first post (i.e. not the immediately preceeding one). On one level, as an extrovert I enjoy the company of people and will agree to outings more for the company than the event. And to be truly rooted in the activity of the moment is necessary for the psychological state of flow.
But on another level, if I've done something before that I loathed, almost nothing will induce me to agree to do it again. And I reject some activities that I've never done simply on principle, e.g. parachuting or bungy jumping. In those cases, the risk versus reward calculation triggers my aversion. I forgo these activities despite the adage that you only truly regret what you haven't done, not the things that you've done and wish you could repent. Mostly it's a product of self-awareness. I know from experience that I am not an adrenaline junky.
So, while I admire the animating spirit of Scott2's advice, I have to temper it with the caveat to be true to your self as well.


J_
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Post by J_ »

I am FI for 13 years now. Last 4 winter months I have spend on a snowy high plateau in Austria, learning for the second year the skill of freestyle cross country skiing, allmost every day in every wheather. I have learned to adapt to every possible change of the snow surface, downhill, flat or uphill. My physical condition has improved. In the evenings I have studied Spinoza an read the treads of ERE, read many other books in Dutch, read a French book about Spinoza's Ethica, sentence by sentence. Trying to grasp his wonderfull description of a fullfiling life.

Next week I go to my other home in the Netherlands, and will try to sell the last part of my real estate portfolio in a difficult market, revive my pianoplaying and go tourcycling in summer.

In other words I have learned being FI, and set goals for the future.

As you start for ERE, start at the same time your imagination for the situation after ERE.


Spartan_Warrior
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Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Epic thread. I loved livinlite's comparison of ERE with a traditional monastic lifestyle. Great post. I totally agree. To me ERE/FI is the lifestyle that best embodies and permits my personal quest for meaning.
As for OP's situation, this strikes me as a natural transitory period. We are highly conditioned to believe in the work>retirement>death progression. Breaking out of that is bound to be a shock to your system. Your body (and mind) seem to be coping pre-emptively.
There's a lot of clutter associated with the 9-5 lifestyle. Not just physical clutter, but emotional, spiritual, and especially temporal clutter. Without that clutter to fill our lives, in some sense our "true selves" are laid bare. We have to find something of meaning to fill the void. Some of us have an idea of what this is, and it motivates us to pursue FI. Some of us have to find it. Perhaps that's the root question. What motivated you to pursue ERE in the first place? For me, it was a desire to write novels and work on other creative hobbies that are generally long shots at producing reliable income. As mikenotspam points out, there is free time even in a workday to devote to these endeavors, and I do; but I can't wait to devote myself full-time, without the constant stress and hassle of work.
I would recommend starting on some projects and see if something grabs you. In my experience, it really, really helps if there are other people involved somehow. Then the motivation kicks in.


JulianoBR
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Post by JulianoBR »

It seems FI people has achieved the very last step of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
The ultimate mission in human life may be to become a philosopher.
Jacob's quote "There are maybe 100 different abstract concepts known to humanity. What happens when one reaches the point of this is similar to everything I've already done?" seems pessimist at first sight. The great question is if humans do have a finite set of concepts which can be experimented.


J_
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Post by J_ »

@Juliano I think your are spot on with your remark that the last step of a FI is to become a philosopher.

Still FI is not static, I make plans for the next 40 Years, in steps of 5 years. I know that the further I plan, how more it will be unsure. I know very well how mortal I am. But making plans is fun and make you think of the direction you like to go.

But many things I know allready eg: learn what to eat (especially what not) and what your body requires to stay fit: and apply that knowledge every day. The discipline with one forged his FI, is the same as to stay as long as possible beeing independent in your whole life.
I try to find out what in what kind of environment I feel best in the different seasons, and be there in that season. I keep with the ERE principles (of sustanability). I am adventourous, curious and find out new things/ study new fields.
Jacob wrote somewhere that he read many biographies, but did not find the answers he sought.

I look at my neighbours, especially the elderly, and speak with them about how they live so well. I learn by looking and listening. These fora and blog is an excellent study-place for me.

I am thankfull to Jacob that he still keeps everything going. Letts give him a cheer!


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jennypenny
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Post by jennypenny »

"I think having a sense of shared purpose with other people is key to creating that feeling of excitement"

I thought about Scott2's comment last night while watching the basketball tournament. I think sports fill this need when people can't get that feeling from their jobs.
@juliano-"The ultimate mission in human life may be to become a philosopher." I think there is a place for philosophers, but (for most people) spending your life just contemplating how you should live it seems wasteful to me. Living your life and acting on your philosophy seems like it would be most fulfilling. I find the most satisfaction when I finally decide on a path and start down it. Time should be spent contemplating all options, but if you never choose one, what was the point? It's like considering the merits of every flavor of ice cream but never eating any.


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

@jennypenny
someone wise once said lifes ills can be traced back to mans inability to sit still..
The buddhists and many others believe that "being" is enough..
Contemplation doesn't necessarily have a destination.
Contemplation can lead to a simpler less desructive way of life..
Doesnt mean one is unproductive
but i get what you mean!...i just reckon we need to sit still a bit more..


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