ERE City (US)

[tylerrr]

I've never been to/through Madras even though I've lived in Oregon my entire life!

I really appreciate the access to nature/wide open space and lower housing prices in Madras, I forget that towns in Oregon can be cheaper than the 2 places I've mostly lived, Eugene and Ashland (average houses sell above $500k).

I think somewhere like Madras would be no for me, on like others said, the lack of different scenes. I do consider ERE city in and of itself a scene but would want more than that. Also, I'm very much interested in being able to find a variety of work where I live next, I could see that as being difficult in Madras.

Either way, I see myself living in Oregon in the future and so would definitely be a regular visitor of ERE city if it was somewhere in Oregon!

Just make sure you step over the homeless encampments every other step....

[John]

People for Bikes comparison for Eugene, Cicero and Corvallis.They do not have Madras in their database.

https://bna.peopleforbikes.org/#/places ... 42f7a2255/

[jacob]

People for Bikes comparison for Eugene, Cicero and Corvallis.They do not have Madras in their database.

https://bna.peopleforbikes.org/#/places ... 42f7a2255/

They don't seem to have Cicero, IL either. Searching for Berwyn, IL does cover Cicero, Stickney, Riverside, ... for some reason. See https://bna.peopleforbikes.org/#/places ... f72b4918a/ for the correct one. I live in the SW blue area. I would not call it bike friendly.

[John]

I think the blue is only for residential speed limits (lower than 25mph), so I agree that it is not very useful and may actually be misleading.
The points they assign to cities seem to align well with my experience in the cities I biked at though.

[guitarplayer]

More generally, what do people here think of New Haven and thereabouts in terms of ERE friendliness? DW and I are talking some potential mid-term life plans.

Randomly, I only now learned that this is home to Yale University.

[jacob]

More generally, what do people here think of New Haven and thereabouts in terms of ERE friendliness? DW and I are talking some potential mid-term life plans.

I don't know the area. I was expecting "rich New Yorker"-prices, but surprisingly that's not the case.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/179- ... 6432_zpid/ (I could live with that)

[jacob]

I think the blue is only for residential speed limits (lower than 25mph), so I agree that it is not very useful and may actually be misleading.
The points they assign to cities seem to align well with my experience in the cities I biked at though.

"Berwyn" is a bit underreported in your dataset. For example, there are two dentists just down the street from me.

Using https://www.walkscore.com/how-it-works/ , which I figure has been around the longests, we get:

Chicagoland (ERE HQ): Walk score 78 (very walkable), Bike score 53 (bikeable), Transit score 36 (some transit)
Eugene (first house): Walk score 74 (very walkable), Bike score 100 (biker's paradise), Transit score 35 (some transit)

[macg]

More generally, what do people here think of New Haven and thereabouts in terms of ERE friendliness? DW and I are talking some potential mid-term life plans.

Randomly, I only now learned that this is home to Yale University.

I grew up in CT, although closer to MA. Overall, back then, New Haven did not have a good reputation. That being said, in terms of ERE friendliness, it'll be pretty good. It has some cool neighborhoods, and is as close to a "college town" that CT has... Train station that has both Amtrak & Metro North (commuter line for NYC). Strangely enough, famous (in New England at least) for it's pizza - some sort of decades-long competition between a couple of restaurants.

@jacob - it's at the "end of the line" for the NYC commuter line, and the prices drop as you get further away from NY. Closer to NY, especially Fairfield County, are the big money areas.

I think the reason New Haven had a bad reputation when I was growing up in CT was because of crime, but I believe that's better now. It's also one of those cities you read about that got torn apart by the government running 2 major highways right through the center of the town.

I can't speak to the overall walkability or biking infrastructure. In my limited visits, I was able to get around the neighborhoods I visited with no issues. I could ask around and get more info if needed.

[chenda]

Belfast in Maine was a very nice little town I once spent some time in. Very walkable and had all amenities you would ever need. Camden was quite nice as well iirc.

[John]

"Berwyn" is a bit underreported in your dataset. For example, there are two dentists just down the street from me.

Using https://www.walkscore.com/how-it-works/ , which I figure has been around the longests, we get:

Chicagoland (ERE HQ): Walk score 78 (very walkable), Bike score 53 (bikeable), Transit score 36 (some transit)
Eugene (first house): Walk score 74 (very walkable), Bike score 100 (biker's paradise), Transit score 35 (some transit)

I actually checked walkscore as well. But for Plano/TX, it gives walkable 41 and bikeable 53, where in reality it is more like -10 if you have ever been in North Texas. Peopleforbikes score is 10, which is more aligned I thought.

[Hristo Botev]

I'm primarily focused on what the right conditions for a scene are. The equivalent analogy here would be "the idea of an online forum---by no means a trivial concept insofar it wasn't so familiar" (as opposed to a mailing list = club). Since I'm not nearly as experienced in IRL scenes (introvert preferences are very strong with this one) as I am in online scenes, my best guess would be to think of it as a music scene or foodie scene.

Pick a place where 1) people already are; and 2) would want to be for other reasons that the scene. For example, something like a music scene (help me out here) probably originate in a place that already has a lot of young people with time to play---think concentration of universities and colleges---so it has to be big cities. Conversely, something like old-folks retirement scenes "grow" better in Florida. There's a digital nomad scene in Chiang Mai in Thailand and there's probably a reason why it's not some other place, like say, Kansas City. "Silicon Valley" is in SV because the climate is great + it used to be cheap + its proximity to Stanford and Berkeley, both of which are nerd-factories. People want to live there and many are already there. These factors do not hold for other attempts to make something similar by reviving rust-valley towns in Upstate New York.

I'm very late to the conversation on this one; apologies. I'm not moving, personally, but I wanted to chime in on the question of "scenes" as I've recently learned from my online "community" of podcasters/social media folks, as well as a couple IRL folks, that there is a bit of a "scene" developing of young families of the more "trad" Catholic types in Steubenville, OH. As far as I can tell, this due to the fact that Franciscan University of Steubenville is there, which is one of the few Catholic colleges in the U.S. recognized by the Newman Guide (which is the go-to guide for determining whether a school is ACTUALLY Catholic and not Catholic In Name Only).

For purposes of creating a "scene," it strikes me that centering that scene in a college town probably makes a lot of sense. It would need to be a college that has the right "identity" for purposes of whatever the scene is. I'm not sure what colleges would fit the ERE identity, but I suspect there probably are some.

[grundomatic]

Many have expressed a desire for certain temperatures. It would be helpful to know these preferences with a bit more precision than "warm" or "not too cold". We all know that what is tshirt weather to someone from Minnesota is snowsuit weather to a Californian.

Keep in mind that specific demands really narrows down the list of options. To keep it simple, I've divided the continental US into the following zones.

If you already know areas you like, you can take a look at this map to see where they're also found. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _US_50.png

I'll split it into 3 regional columns with north-south divisions:

1) West of the continental divide, we have mostly mediterranean climates ranging from hot dry summers (100F) to warm dry summers (80F). Snow is rare or light. In the summer, these places are often on literal fire. Water is often imported from elsewhere. Most of these places do not need heat and most are also fine w/o A/C.

2) East of the continental divide (Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico) we have mostly semi-arid conditions ranging from very cold in the north to rather warm in the south. Rain is rare being in the rain shadow of the mountains to the west.

East of that, we'll split the right-most column into 3 rows with east-west divisions.

3) In the northern-most row of North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, NY, and New England, you'll need a snow shovel and your refrigiwear all winter long. Summers are pleasant, but during winter time, you'll get easily buried under several feet of snow in some places.

4) The middle row of South Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania get a mixture of both, that is, you'll experience the full range of seasons (and a full range of changing clothes). Summers are hot and humid, and winters are often freezing with a foot of snow. Lots of farming here. You can grow plants. But you also get the most unpleasant temperatures at either end having to constantly adjust as the seasons change.

5) The south east (everything below, basically Kansas in the NW corner and Florida in the SW corner) experiences humid conditions that range from warm in the north to hot in the south. Snow is light or rare. This was not a popular place to live before the invention of A/C. Bad weather includes hurricanes and tornadoes.

In terms of personal preferences I'd rank these in the order of 1, 3, 2, 4, 5. I don't think any of them are absolute deal-breakers for me (I already live in 4, but I do miss 1) although I do find "hot and humid" to be unpleasant to my constitution. Then again, I'm mostly an indoor-type person, so I can live with that.

It would be helpful to know people's rankings in terms of that list. In particular, whether the warm-loving people are still okay with warm if it also means humid?

My household's preference is probably 1, 2, 5, 4, 3 .

1000 sq ft +/- is a good size for our home. Don't want bigger, smaller could be okay.

@jacob your summary seemed liked it captured how people responded as best it could.

Though I responded a small town would be acceptable, I worry that a town of 7,000 might be a little small for the extraverted grundomatic household. Like if only 3 households move there, either we will wear everyone else out or we will end up lonely. If we get 20, it'll probably be ok. I guess I was thinking Flagstaff, AZ small, which is ~70k people. However, the smaller the place is the more likely ERE activity could shape the community at large, which could be cool to see.

I'll also note the difficulty for responding for a household, not only for differing preferences, but especially when one partner is still currently stuck in the hell of regular employment. That's why a move is a couple years out. A year to recover, then maybe can be in a mental state to make decisions and do things to make it happen. Could totally spend some of that year traveling to scope potential places out.

Just make sure you step over the homeless encampments every other step....

Is there a place in zone 1 that hasn't been affected by this? Encampments have made the area around our current place much "yuckier". This is another discussion entirely, probably, but contributes to my earlier comment about the area not looking run down.

[theanimal]

A couple small nitpicks.

1) West of the continental divide, we have mostly mediterranean climates ranging from hot dry summers (100F) to warm dry summers (80F). Snow is rare or light. In the summer, these places are often on literal fire. Water is often imported from elsewhere. Most of these places do not need heat and most are also fine w/o A/C.

This is a very broad description of what should probably be three distinct areas: coastal PNW, the desert southwest and interior northwest. Temperatures are regularly well over one hundred for the entirety of summer in much of Nevada, Utah and Arizona. Conversely, during the winter, Idaho, Northern Utah, Western Montana and Eastern Washington can all get cold, with temperatures plummeting to near 0 F. These areas often have a lot of snow as well, more so if you are closer to the mountains. I'd be surprised if you could go without heat in this area, even at 55 F indoor temps.

2) East of the continental divide (Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico) we have mostly semi-arid conditions ranging from very cold in the north to rather warm in the south. Rain is rare being in the rain shadow of the mountains to the west.

Utah is completely west of the continental divide.

Is there a place in zone 1 that hasn't been affected by this? Encampments have made the area around our current place much "yuckier". This is another discussion entirely, probably, but contributes to my earlier comment about the area not looking run down.

Based on the initial description, western Wyoming. Although, that area would likely be eliminated for other criteria sought by many here due to the expensive real estate and small, remote locales.

[mountainFrugal]

Might be too spendy for the ERE crowd, but you already have a working eco-community to join in Western Mass. https://stowefarm.org/house-for-sale-2/. 2 very good friends from my postdoc days live in the community. PM for an intro.

[loutfard]

Might be too spendy for the ERE crowd, but you already have a working eco-community to join in Western Mass. https://stowefarm.org/house-for-sale-2/. 2 very good friends from my postdoc days live in the community. PM for an intro.

Expensive indeed, even if this seems to be built to high standards.

Also, this would not be how I define ecological. The definition of "ecological" seems to be a very personal one on an axis between the joy of surrounding oneself with nature on the one side, and care for the whole planet as a responsible steward on the other. This place seems to put a bit more stress on the first side than I would be comfortable with. Three symptoms:
- overengineered heating system. Solar thermal _and_ radiant floor system _and_ four heat pumps _and_ heat recovery ventilation _and_ a wood stove.
- asphalt shingle roof. questionable choice for a place that claims to be ecological.
- remote. 20 km away from the closest supermarket with no public transport nearby.

My definition of an ecological place to live in this area would be more along the lines of:
- in or near a small city with decent cyclability and walkability
- townhouse or semidetached
- 60 (for a couple) -120 m² (with two kids)
- rainwater catchment from steel, clay tile or possibly untreated wood shingle roof
- breathable building envelope
- straw or hempcrete wall and roof insulation where possible
- foam glass ground floor insulation
- as little concrete as possible
- natural summer shading thanks to trees
- solar thermal and photovoltaics
- good EU quality three paned PVC or aluminium windows

[mountainFrugal]

Expensive indeed, even if this seems to be built to high standards.

Also, this would not be how I define ecological. The definition of "ecological" seems to be a very personal one on an axis between the joy of surrounding oneself with nature on the one side, and care for the whole planet as a responsible steward on the other. This place seems to put a bit more stress on the first side than I would be comfortable with. Three symptoms:
- overengineered heating system. Solar thermal _and_ radiant floor system _and_ four heat pumps _and_ heat recovery ventilation _and_ a wood stove.
- asphalt shingle roof. questionable choice for a place that claims to be ecological.
- remote. 20 km away from the closest supermarket with no public transport nearby.

Well the community does grow nearly all of its food and animals and they all participate in food preservation parties with huge pantries so a supermarket is completely irrelevant. The people that have chosen to live there are interested in rural living and being part of a tight community. Western Mass gets pretty cold in the winter. I cannot speak to the asphalt shingles, but that is likely to do with building codes. My two friends are respectively PhDs in Ecology and Heating systems Engineering/Architecture. They are defining it how they define it and I think it is more towards that whole planet view.

[loutfard]

Rereading my own comment, I'm fairly certain it came across rather harsh. I was was thinking how this place would not be a good fit for me as a person, and certainly not trying to burn down a laudable initiative. I very much appreciate attempts to live closer to nature. The experience this brings can only benefit us as a species. Hats off for these people's attempts to grow nearly all of their food too. My apologies for not picking my words more carefully.

[mountainFrugal]

No worries @loutfard. I think you should build your own vision. I think that the hardest part is actually the community part which the Stowe Farm community has successfully figured out.

[Jin+Guice]

It seems like you guys are learning small town and also leaning homestead.

I don't think there is a lot of representation on here, but southern* cities are good for urban homesteading, I think. Older southern cities have a lot of single family homes with small yards, but are also highly walkable and bikeable. They also tend to be cheaper. The weather is really hot in the summer, but the further north you go, the less hot it is and the further south you go the more you escape winter. Though I prefer a large city (New Orleans is too small for my tastes), there are also several smaller cities in the South.

*To me southern is shorthand for south eastern in the USA. I include Texas. I don't include Oklahoma (but could be good for ERE city). Arkansas is a maybe. Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia and Virginia all the border and they are in.

My friend is basically trying to start something similar by buying up a bunch of property on this one street in New Orleans. He's trying to convince other people to move to the same street. It's the guy with the urban garden I used to live on (urban garden is on the street). I'm considering buying in, though my friend doesn't know that. He has a bit of a community going out there, though no permanent residents. He's had 2-3 friends move within walking distance, but not the same street or close enough to arbitrarily run into with much frequency.

New Orleans is particularly good because the laws here aren't enforced very well. Taxes are cheap for (just fractionally!) east of the Mississippi river.

New Orleans is obviously particularly bad for climate change. Where my friend is buying is theoretically better positioned for climate change than most of the city... but it is still 3 blocks from the Mississippi river and subject to all of the same hurricanes.




Some questions about ERE city:

Is anyone considering a more urban approach? Like apartment building? I used to live in a squat with a bunch of hipsters in rooms (illegally) built into the same floor (in an old factory where all equipment was removed). Very minimalist. Very reliant on the city functioning. Very punk. Is anyone thinking along these lines?

Does anyone have a different idea than house near an urban center with a small amount of land?

I don't want to derail you guys if you are close to finding a solution, but it seems like we may still be in the brainstorming phase?




Another thing: I think MMM just built his thing and people ended up coming? This seems like what @AH and @mF are doing? I think this might be a good strategy. The failure mode is even if no ERE people show up, you get a bunch of ERE adjacent people who do live near you showing up.

[loutfard]

I'm thinking of how a friend of mine is currently building his place. He's organised a non-profit collective for building a group of twentyish living units: some townhouses, detached ones and a few appartments. There's also a large common room with a kitchen for parties and if I'm not mistaken an optional common laundry room. All construction work is outsourced. This style of cooperatives apparently is not so uncommon in the Netherlands. Getting more common in the more expensive areas of my native Belgium too.

P.S. Has anyone here looked into the legacy of architect Walter Segal? His design goal was simplified diy affordable home building. Very close to the traditional US platform framing way in some ways, with some clever inventions on top to make things even more diy friendly. His work obviously isn't up to energy standards anymore, but he has inspired quite a few architects.

Update: closer to balloon framing, not platform framing of course.