bostonimproper's journal

[frugaldoc]

I'm curious if you have ever grown more cynical after seeing things from different levels? Maybe this was/is just a military thing for me, but I'd say that there were times when seeing things from a higher leader's perspective was more demoralizing than anything else because I realized that the incompetence/rot runs all the way up, or that issues at their core would never be resolved because they were structural in nature. Sometimes, I think my perspective on certain topics was better when I knew less because then I could at least pretend the things higher leaders were talking about behind closed doors were actually important. YMMV because I am someone who really enjoyed the tactical world and felt myself losing my mind in the strategic world.

I don't know if I am demoralized but I did become aware that there is a lot more complexity to the world than many of us believe and there is a lot of information that we aren't privy to. Just sitting through one our daily ops/intel briefs is eye opening and that isn't super secret shit. I have probably become less tolerant of the layman who likes to Monday morning quarterback and say stuff like "My 18 year old nephew is a private and he could have come up with a better withdrawal plan." People have no concept of the logistics involved with moving a mere battalion of Marines with their gear and equipment from point A to point B. I am a staff officer not a line officer so can't speak to the transition from tactical to operational to strategic. I am sure some people make the transition more smoothly than others. Some are gifted in one area and not in others. Some may even be brilliant in an area but can't help but trip themselves up (John Boyd perhaps?) and lessen their potential impact.

But I feel like I am imposing on someone else's journal so shall leave it at that.

[Henry]

Warren Buffet recognized people's need for recognition and he believed it motivated them more than money. Most industries have trade publications, organizations that hand out awards, PR machines. I make it a goal to avoid any PR of anything I do because I realized who comments on it and I realized it shrinks the world and myself and becomes a false carrot. I try to focus on the money. Recognition opens up a whole incentivization model externally and internally that impacts motivation but not necessarily compensation. Players only love you when they're playing.

[zbigi]

I'm curious if you have ever grown more cynical after seeing things from different levels? Maybe this was/is just a military thing for me, but I'd say that there were times when seeing things from a higher leader's perspective was more demoralizing than anything else because I realized that the incompetence/rot runs all the way up, or that issues at their core would never be resolved because they were structural in nature. Sometimes, I think my perspective on certain topics was better when I knew less because then I could at least pretend the things higher leaders were talking about behind closed doors were actually important. YMMV because I am someone who really enjoyed the tactical world and felt myself losing my mind in the strategic world.

I suspect it depends on whether one's job/career itself had "serving a higher goal" component of it. If it didn't, and one's main purpose was money/recognition/intellectual curiosity, then disillusionment as you witness more crap is inevitable. If, on the other hand, one did the job at least partially for external reasons (to educate the young, help sick people, defend the country, improve public transport etc.), then one can accept the crap as an unfortunate part of reality, but still be happy with having a positive impact. I've spoken to a public servant who said: "it's so satisfying to do something positive, despite all the bureaucracy and nonsense!". Such people have less chance of burnout (although, in her case, she did burn out, and jumped to private sector for double the pay).

[bostonimproper]

Thanks all for your musings on recognition and status. Feel free to continue the conversation. For now, a journal update:

Filial piety

I had a call with my mother the other day. She’s a real estate agent, has been one for decades. There was a recent NAR settlement that’s likely to change the game big time over the next few years. I called her to ask her opinions and, over the course of the conversation, it became clear to me how much my mom struggles to make a living working in the industry nowadays. From what I gathered, she has little in the way of retirement savings. This was not much of a surprise, but I had hoped she was doing better now with my brother and I out of the house for a decade at this point. She asked me about crypto, desperate for a big payday. Things seem grim.

As I plod closer to My Number (TM), I’m realizing it’ll probably be hard for me to walk away from work even once I have enough to sustain my own family unit. I will probably have to financially support my mom. I’ve been pushing that out of my brain for a long time because the very thought of it hurts me almost physically, but it’s something I feel compelled to do. With the support of my brother, most likely, who lives near her and has a decent job of her own, but I think it’d make sense to buffer our finances so that I could send her, say, $4000/month to supplement her when she retires (or, perhaps, when the industry moves on without her).

I have a similar concern for my sister-in-law who is in her 50’s. She has worked on and off at non-profits her entire adult life, many of which she founded herself (and sometimes poured her own money into, sigh). She is a lovely and giving woman, but that is also the problem. She gives more than she has and over time that has led to little in the way of assets and piling up debt. She also has a lifelong disability that limits her ability to sustain consistent full-time work. I’m hoping the amount my spouse is likely to inherit from my MIL (not SIL’s mother, they’re half siblings) will be enough for us to supplement SIL in her retirement years. But who knows if that’ll be enough. I think MIL and FIL have enough to at least sustain themselves, but if that doesn’t prove to be true— I don’t know, man. It sucks feeling like I’m the only stably earning person (outside of my brother) in like 3 generations of family members.

At least one gift I know I can give my toddler: not putting them in a position to feel like they have to support me or my spouse in our old age (or anyone else in the family for that matter).

[Hristo Botev]

Filial piety

Thanks for sharing this update; I empathize and have been struggling with much of this myself, which is part of why we moved back home. I've not gone back and looked at my ridiculously rambling journal entries over the years, but I suspect I could probably pinpoint in there the point at which I largely gave up on the idea of My Number (TM) and the whole FIRE thing. And it was probably the realization that I can make an income and support not just myself and my immediate family, but also my extended family and also in some ways the community DW and I moved back to. The vast majority of the folks in our town and who we see on a fairly regular basis at school and sports and church and social stuff are just barely getting by financially, and DW and I are able to do a whole lot to sort of help out quietly, without anyone but maybe a teacher or a school administrator or coach knowing, and sometimes not even that, to make sure that team busses/transportation gets paid for, every kid on a team gets to take home team photos/banners, trophies and plaques for end-of-season team banquets are made available, making sure everyone has a uniform, team lunches are paid for, every kid that wants to go on a Disney trip or wherever gets to, dropping a fellow parent several hundred bucks when they need a little help to make rent or to get their car fixed, etc. etc. We do this selfishly, because we want our children to have the experiences of the school and club sports and everything that goes along with it, as well as school trips, etc. And our kids wouldn't have those experiences if their classmates and teammates and the sponsoring institutions didn't have the resources necessary to make that happen. And we do this as quietly as possible because we just prefer to be under the radar and are not showy types. And I don't think we could really be this generous with our money if we'd really embraced the FIRE mindset of hitting a number and then checking out. I'd be too anxious to be giving away money if I didn't have a steady income source that was independent of investments. Anyway, I fully expect to work until a more traditional "retirement" age, I just expect/hope to do that not from a place of necessity but in order to facilitate the Aristotelian virtue of liberality. I don't anticipate ever having wealth sufficient to be magnanimous with giving, as defined by Aristotle, but liberality is within reach but only I think if I continue to work.

This has been what I have liked most about the tax code change that made us standard deduction folks and not itemized deduction folks--we don't track charitable contributions anymore or even really donate money to 501c3s (apart from our Parish and Diocese, of course); we just try and be very liberal with giving at a local/individual/personal level when there is an opportunity to. And my job is what makes it possible for us to do that without keeping me up at night worried about the S&P 500.

[7Wannabe5]

The conversation that you are having with yourself about money and your family is almost the same conversation I recently had with another tutor (who is definitely a serious core helper/leader type) about math/reading skills and our students. As Hristo's follow-up makes evident, there's no necessary boundary to this sort of thinking/practice/problem. You/nuclear family/extended family/community/region/...

Beyond the need to define boundaries, there is the fact that "Don't take responsibility where you don't have authority." can run in both directions. Sometimes when we are playing to our strengths from Center of the Universe Chair, we are also avoiding focusing on our own weaknesses.

ETA: The above sounded more (insert bwah bwah bwah Charlie Brown adult voice) than I meant it. I just find it helpful to sometimes reverse perspective along the lines of "It really sucks that everybody in my family has a better sense of style than I do." or "It really sucks that almost everybody in my family is more comfortable with the emotion of anger than I am." Then if my mother was complaining to me about not being able to get by on more than 3X what I spend, I can change the topic to something like "What do you think I should wear when I meet up with Harry to dump him tomorrow?"

[Scott 2]

The constraints around generosity are a notable downside of FIRE. Yes, one can budget for some giving. But it's nothing like the money firehose of a mid-career salary.

I also find, absent work stress, I see much more opportunity to help. Both family and beyond. With finances constrained, I've tried to offer some time instead. But without taking on a full time commitment, it's hard to effect meaningful change.

Sometimes, I regret the opportunity cost.

With that said, is it possible to buy these family problems away? I know of a senior couple who inherited a million dollars in their 60's. Ten years later, it was gone. They never learned to hold wealth. No amount of money changed that.

[delay]

I had a call with my mother the other day. She’s a real estate agent, has been one for decades. ... it became clear to me how much my mom struggles to make a living working in the industry nowadays.

Thanks for your journal update! Some people live on ups and downs. When they are down they rely on more stable family members to pull them back up. Family members are both ashamed and thankful for help. These contradicting emotions balance eachother in repsonse to your emotions.

The one thing I'd be afraid of is promises. Like a promise of a payment, better behavior or a gift in a testament. The moment when family help changes into a business transaction is when trouble starts.

[jacob]

Thanks all for your musings on recognition and status. Feel free to continue the conversation. For now, a journal update:

Filial piety
As I plod closer to My Number (TM), I’m realizing it’ll probably be hard for me to walk away from work even once I have enough to sustain my own family unit. I will probably have to financially support my mom. I’ve been pushing that out of my brain for a long time because the very thought of it hurts me almost physically, but it’s something I feel compelled to do. With the support of my brother, most likely, who lives near her and has a decent job of her own, but I think it’d make sense to buffer our finances so that I could send her, say, $4000/month to supplement her when she retires (or, perhaps, when the industry moves on without her).

At least one gift I know I can give my toddler: not putting them in a position to feel like they have to support me or my spouse in our old age (or anyone else in the family for that matter).

You're being torn between traditional [Asian] values, where children are expected to serve their parents throughout life, and modern values, where every adult is responsible for taking care of themselves.

I'll just throw in the values of the postmodern era in which those who are working age are expected to take care of the young and the old together---we have a bit of that in the US too with school tax and social security---just to add another data point.

(This is a fairly crude split and usually there will be a transition. For example, 1950s style transition from traditionalism to modernism would be the idea of the man of the house going to work and supporting the housewife who in turn support the children.)

All these values point in very different directions, and it's hard to square them morally because what seems morally right under one value set seems morally outrageous in another set. Clashes (disagreements) obtain when people with two different sets collide. They do not understand each other---they might even see each other as "evil" or whatever the words of their value system are for a bad person.

Internally, having a mix of different value system is a bit easier to accomplish. However, if it's unresolved it still leads to worry and anxiety because, essentially, the challenge of dealing with it exceeds one's current skill level of squaring that circle. Likely lots of mental processing needs to resolve it.

When other people are involved it's even harder. With personal relations, there are likely unmet expectations and unspoken contracts. For example, do you know if your mother and other relatives expect you to pony up the $1.2M that you have in mind? There's probably a range of acceptable solutions (why $4000? Why not $5000 or $400?). There are also ways to maneuver in this value space, Sun Tzu style, for solutions that can be either win-win, win-lose, or even lose-lose.

[Ego]

It may be helpful to encourage her to do some basic research on what to expect from social security, any other retirement accounts and what costs will be in retirement. Ignorance of these factors allows the problem to grow. Having it out in the open allows everyone to make educated decisions. The sooner everyone realizes the extent of the situation, the better.

Then it comes down to setting realistic expectations for them and for yourselves.

[jacob]

I'm afraid that for a lot of people even that kind of discussion remains too abstract until it actually happens. E.g. someone who has been working a string of $40,000/year jobs (present dollars) with a very typical savings rate of <5% and an expectation to retire at 62 without a complete lifestyle makeover is in for a rude awakening. Their social security income will be less than half of their previous income.

Here's a good graph to print out to attempt the conversation though.
https://jabberwocking.com/should-we-inc ... -benefits/

Retiring at 67 gets you 100% of those values. Retiring at 62 gets you 70%. The fraction is linear between 62 and 67.

[Ego]

I'm afraid that for a lot of people even that kind of discussion remains too abstract until it actually happens.

I agree, but I believe it is easy enough to get a rough outline.

When I log into my Social Security account ( https://www.ssa.gov/myaccount/ ) right in the middle of the screen is "Download Your Social Security Statement". The downloaded statement shows exactly how much I will receive depending on the age when I retire. I have deleted the amounts from mine here, but this is what it looks like. Very easy to understand:



From there, figuring out how much Medicare will cost is a little complicated, but not that difficult.

https://www.medicare.gov/basics/get-sta ... icare-cost

Housing and everyday expenses should be relatively easy to calculate based on current numbers.

[7Wannabe5]

You're being torn between traditional [Asian] values, where children are expected to serve their parents throughout life, and modern values, where every adult is responsible for taking care of themselves.

I'll just throw in the values of the postmodern era in which those who are working age are expected to take care of the young and the old together---we have a bit of that in the US too with school tax and social security---just to add another data point.

I know that the post-post-modern perspective involves having awareness of all these previous value-memes, but what do you think example(s) of post-post-modern practice in the realm of care for the very young and very old would look like? For example, my Polyamorous Lentil Baby concept/scheme was my semi-self-aware attempt to "deconstruct" or "modularize" the 1950s model towards being both more Individualistic/Feminist and more Communitarian, because I was drawing some financial support from affluent older men while I was working on my not-very-lucrative community projects within a lifestyle design of my own making/maintenance.

In a situation in which an older parent has become quite decrepit, it is often the case that one child is extremely happy to maintain the role of Stable Provider of Financial Means (adult masculine energy) if another child is willing to be Calm Provider of Direct Physical and Emotional Care (adult feminine energy.) Intelligent management of the system and co-operation between siblings can reduce both of these burdens. I have found the automation provided by recently invented high tech services to be quite helpful in the situation with my decrepit, bi-polar, extremely willful, towards spend-thrift, mother. For example, arranging to have regular delivery of a set list of groceries at the time that the $25/hr cleaning person is at her apartment.

[zbigi]

(This is a fairly crude split and usually there will be a transition. For example, 1950s style transition from traditionalism to modernism would be the idea of the man of the house going to work and supporting the housewife who in turn support the children.)

That wasn't universal. Communist Eastern Europe was mostly already "living in the future" in 1950s, with women being fully emancipated (thanks to ideas of communism), and both parents working full time jobs, due to one salary being insufficient.

[7Wannabe5]

@zbigi:

This was also true for poor or lower working class women in the U.S. in the 1950s, but in the middle-class suburb where I lived as a young child (1966-1977) there was only one working Mom that I knew of in my entire neighborhood. She was divorced, taught ballet, and resided with her mother who cared for her daughter while she worked. Then, suddenly, in the late 70s, everybody's middle-class mother got a job/career and/or a divorce. This transition also happened much earlier in locations such as NYC.

[jacob]

I know that the post-post-modern perspective involves having awareness of all these previous value-memes, but what do you think example(s) of post-post-modern practice in the realm of care for the very young and very old would look like?

My understanding of post-postmodernism is that it requires a sentiment of pragmatic idealism. In other words, ideological preferences must be tempered by what is practical to implement given that humans have different preferences and capabilities. Since meta-modernism is also associated with SD:Yellow, there's a more complete understanding of the various [care-taking] systems available and a willingness to combine them while realizing that not everybody wants solutions in the same form or shape or cost. The focus on what is practical (what can be done) also means less of a tendency to spend time dreaming up perfect solutions and convincing everybody else to adopt it through conversation. Each system has blindspots, but different systems have different blindspots, so the post-postmodern way would be to combine different systems (including those one don't like, if necessary) to remove these blind spots in a practical way.

For example, FIRE is combining the idea of retirement from the working-system with the idea of a living income from the social security/pension system but using the financial system to implement it. Thus, for care-taking, look into the various systems that are currently involved with care taking. Break them apart, understand what each module does, and then recombine. Use the modular approach from ERE book chapter 5. I suggest focusing on what can actually be done rather than what is possible in theory. It's easy to get wild ideas like, lets gather all the grandmothers on the block and have them watch the kids while everybody is working ... but that kind of idealism is likely impossible in practice on your particular block unless you are able to organize those grandmothers and convince parents that the old folks can run a daycare facility for the kids ... and possible a nightcare facility for themselves. If you're not able ... then quickly forget about that particular solution, because it's not practical on your block.

It's very likely that you'll find the solution-space expand tremendously, if you're dealing with multi-skilled people who are not exclusively married to their values or a single profession, hence the impetus for ERE2 and ERE City.