Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Jean wrote:it's more about having power on others than killing them.
I agree. This is an extremely important distinction. Whereas Achievers are more interested in having Power Over Themselves. So, for example, patronizing behavior is often the behavior of a Killer. And the reason many/most heterosexual women like men who have at least a bit of Killer in their nature is that they like for men to exude a bit of power over them in sexual context (but not in the freaking kitchen!!! sorry, still coming down a bit from being locked down for Covid with Gordon Ramsey-like ESTJ.)
jacob wrote:Basically exhibiting "juvenile masculine energy" in @7wb5 terms(?) It's a power that creates change ... but also a power to be moderated by protecting "kings" and caring "queens" because it tends to lack wisdom and perspective.
Huh, I see it more as dysfunctional form of Adult Masculine energy, although that might well be mixed with some dysfunctional Juvenile Masculine energy. Functional juvenile masculine energy is Exploratory energy, like Tom Sawyer,; I associate it with my primary Ne. So, overly "protective" domineering/controlling/supervisin Adult Masculine energy kills Explorers by caging in their energy. For example, the aging scientists who have to die before the new paradigm can be accepted are a form of Killer. Maybe this is more clear to me, because it's less acceptable to be a female Explorer, so I am frequently getting my Ne squashed by the Killer-Protectors. Pretty much the #1 issue in most of my relationships.

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Jean
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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by Jean »

killer type activist don't wan't you to change your mind, they wan't you to be afraid to express any thought they haven't validated before.
They are the main reason it's so hard to have public discussions on politics.
I think most activist aren't like that. Even on the other side :D
Then, many people are so affraid of the killer activist that they aren't able to discuss ideas anymore, but they aren't killers. Those are mostly in activism for socializing.
Achiever pick wathever side they think is the good one, and try to make it win. They are the one who want to change your mind.
Explorer try to know which side is right, and will annoy wathever side they are with with nuances.

I think the swiss political system works relatively good, because it doesn't attract killers to much into politics.

And capitalism is so efficient because it hacks the best killers into being somewhat productive.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Jean wrote:Explorer try to know which side is right, and will annoy wathever side they are with with nuances.
Also most likely to blithely note that the Emperor has no clothes. I think it's not so much that Explorers try to know which side is right, and more that they try to know in which ways either side is right/wrong. I always find myself in the not exactly enviable position of arguing whichever side is not the company in which I find myself presently. Of course, this is because primary Ne pretty much lives for debate in social context*. To the extent that it seems like I am agreeing with you, I am probably still engaged in fully comprehending your argument.

I agree that some activists are Killers at Level Green. What would a Killer at Level Yellow look like?

*Thus, we also don't like small or concrete talk, but have developed the skill of drilling down/distracting/provoking to more interesting (to us) topics. Stephen Colbert and John Stewart are both ENTPs.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:The whole thing about living rent free in someone's head is a killer's ultimate goal.
This is a very good discussion! I think I am finally getting a glimmer on Ni function. For a human Explorer with primary Ni, the Killer would be in your head, because your exploration/learning is largely internalized. For a human Explorer with primary Ne, the Killer actually prevents you from exploring out in the world. I'm almost on the cusp of INTP, so I'm pretty low-key in my exploration, so my idea of a KIller could be a dysfunctional Adult masculine energy human who is preventing me from going to the library or out scavenger walking, even if they think it is "for my own good*", as well as the dysfunctional juvenile masculine gang members who are maybe kidnapping women off their bicycles on the way to the farmer's market or burning up little library boxes (true story at my first permaculture site.) For a female Explorer, this sort of "cotton-ball wrap and put on shelf" behavior pretty much amounts to the psychological equivalent of a clitorectomy. However, due to my hopelessly optimistic tertiary Fe, I sometimes, likely dysfunctionally, believe/feel like both of these dysfunctional Killer types can possibly be reformed through education and/or clear exhibits of the natural consequences of their behavior.

*For instance, a human who thinks I would be better off with a 40 hour/wk corporate job than living in the National Forest in a Smart Car Camper, and actually attempts to impose their will upon me, thereby causing me to "kill" my relationship with him, and/or limit/boundary it to easily deletable text message level.

daylen
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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by daylen »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 12:32 pm
What would a Killer at Level Yellow look like?
Batman and/or Batwoman

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by jacob »

Killing is a zero-sum perspective. In order for the killer to win, someone else has to lose. It's interesting so contemplate the different ways that people can see themselves as losing. Ni, Ne, Si, Se, Ti, Te, ... etc. For example, a killer would approach a debate with the goal of proving the opposition wrong whereas an explorer would see debate as a way to learn more and find the truth, while a socializer is just there for the talking. An achiever would just see it as a chore unless "points" were involved.

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by jacob »

jacob wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2024 9:06 am
Similarly, DCS---aka the study-sim---can feel like a college education with a ton or reading and practicing including a steep learning curve. BMS's learning curve is practically vertical just to get off the ground. In terms of how real it is ... hmmm .. not sure... but I still get sweaty palms trying to land a jet at 300kph. The simulation feels real enough to make it matter. Then again, after all this work, where's my degree? Where are my job offers? It isn't and there aren't so from that perspective it's the ultimate waste of time.
One month later, I can nevertheless report that DCS remains engaging and that landings are no longer harrowing. I don't recall being this zonked climbing a learning curve since undergrad quantum mechanics. I've always been able to sense which part of my brain was used if thinking hard enough. For quantum mechanics and learning avionics and weapons systems, it's the temporal lobes. These are associated with memory recall. I had the displeasure of spending an entire night dreaming about the Kh29 missile; just like I used to have ridiculous dreams about moving terms around in the Schroedinger equation. After internalizing the avionics and the actual flying (I'm still on the Su25T, the free plane) to the point of not having to consciously think about staying airborne or which switch to press, I moved onto flying missions and trying to avoid getting shot down. This floods the parietal lobes, which are responsible for visual/spatial processing, and once again makes for sweaty palms. It would be really interesting to run an EEG test on different games, jobs, and fields of study to see how and how much they actually engage the person doing them.

An arena-shooter like World of Warships does not affect me in nearly the same way, but I suspect this is because while looking fast-paced, WOWs is actually pretty simple (monkey see ship, monkey shoot ship). Conversely, DCS, while seemingly slow and simple, is crazy-complex. In WOWs, you're controlling 2 main gun-axes for shooting with one hand and 2 ship-axes for steering along with a few special effects with the other. For DCS, it's 4 axes for flying, 2 axes for targeting, ~5 axes for observing, and about 50 different buttons for the mid-level sim that is the Su25T. Pretty much every appendage of your body is tied into a feedback loop (I'm using HOTAS, pedals, and headtracking.)

WOWs is easy enough that it's possible to play for hours each day. DCS is still at the level where a 1 hour mission expends all the mental juices available for the rest of the day, which must subsequently be recovered... the price of recovery being to dream about missiles all night long, bah! :-P

Can also confirm that I'm more into these types of games than the 4x games which theoretically ought to be the best fit for me. I suspect this is along the lines of what @7wb5 suggested. If you already have a real world alternative, then simulating on the computer is an inferior experience IOW, trading real stocks is more engaging than trading paper stocks, growing a real garden is more motivating than a garden sim, having real sex is more enjoyable than porn, and so on. Likewise, ERE is a more interesting 4x game than managing a virtual imperial economy. As such, my conclusion so far is that games can fill an otherwise unfillable IRL void, but they are very likely inferior substitutes to the real thing.

daylen
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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by daylen »

Makes sense from an adult fun-time perspective but the opportunities for childhood education are much more rich. Creating virtual models to be shared, updated, and continued by the next generation is a relatively new "real world" activity.

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by jacob »

daylen wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:23 am
Makes sense from an adult fun-time perspective but the opportunities for childhood education are much more rich. Creating virtual models to be shared, updated, and continued by the next generation is a relatively new "real world" activity.
What about the opportunities for continuing adult (or parental) education? (I'm asking rhetorically)

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by jacob »

I've made it to Tier7-8(*) in World of Warships and I know understand why some people call it World of Wargrind(ing). Game time has increased to some 30 hours per week. In terms of skill I can now mostly hit what I aim at and also get away with it without dying in the first 10 minutes. I usually score around the middle (every player gets awarded points according to some wizard formula that evaluates how well you played the game). I've had several #1s (MVP) and I don't place last anymore.

(*) There are 10 tiers of ships reflecting the increasing size/technology level of warships between roughly 1900 and 1945. Matches happen between 6-12 ships of roughly equal tier +/-2. If you show up in a ship that's lower than average for the match, you're said to be "undertiered".

Skill makes a difference (hit what you aim at), but doctrine is also important (don't overextend, support your local destroyer, always think about egress).

At this point I have about 250 hours of total playing time. In ERE book definitions that would make me an "apprentice": Trusted to do simple jobs w/o supervision. That sounds about right. I still can't do strategy like making decisions of where and when to push the objectives to turn the battle. Basically, I can tell when single ships are about to do something tactically stupid (and mostly avoid it myself) but I can't "read the map" and see the strategic flow of all the ship movements, so I just try to follow along. Strategy is still a random component for me, but it is clearly not for some of the more experienced players. (In comparison 30 hours per week is a lot, but it is not the highest. 250 hours is so-so but not compared to thousands.) OTOH, I am developing a bit of a personal doctrine for the ships I play.

There are 5 ship types: submarine, destroyer, cruiser, battleship, and carrier. As far as I can generalize, doctrine should very much match the exact ship you play. E.g. don't play a fast ship like a slow ship, etc. This is harder than it sounds. Books like The Inner Game of Tennis come to mind. What characterizes a good player is not how they pull of heroic moves but how they don't make mistakes. I've also spent a disturbingly large amount of time reading about warship armor configuration and projectile penetration. Nerding out actually matters because my previous strategy of googling "what is the best ship" backfired a lot... What was a good ship two years ago might be a mediocre ship today because the old ship was "too good" and became nerfed in the mean time. In order to do it right, you pretty much have to know what you're doing. You can't just lean on copying others and expect the same level of success. Sounds similar to personal finance, doesn't it?

A lot of my experience tracks with https://sirlin.squarespace.com/ptw which I think was posted earlier in this thread. It describes certain player types and warns "not to be that guy". Don't be that guys are definitely present in the game. I'm at the point, where I sometimes catch myself being frustrated with certain other players and developing opinions @#$@#$. This takes the fun out of it a bit, so I just try to work around it.

At this point, I would compare my level of play to where I was with pickup inline hockey. Matches are basically random players doing their own thing. Coordination may happen spontaneously (in which case it's a beautiful thing) or it may not (in which case it's every ship for itself, usually leading to defeat). Fortunately, the game is both old (8 years+ I think?) and big. There is a possibility for ranked battles and divisions which is something I haven't touched yet.

In terms of the economy. Yeah, I'm now rather well aware of how the wargrinding works. The game economy has multiple different currencies. You can't trade with other players, just the game, so basically PvE-style. The economy basically determines which ships you get access to and what matches you get to play. E.g. each game rewards a certain amount of credits depending on how well you played and which ship you played. Thus if you're not performing well---likely you're in a game with the big boys and get totally smashed---it'll cost you more credits to play than the pay out. When your account hits zero, that's it for that ship. Back to the junior leagues with you. This is a pretty brilliant way to ensure that people don't "play above their paygrade", at least not for very long. Much like the real world economy. (And much like the real world economy, you can use USD to get some advantages, but eventually that value flows to players with actual ability. E.g. you could support a fancy ship with actual dollars, but you'd likely get killed more often than not because your skill doesn't match your ship. This in turn lets to skilled players winning more often making them able to sustain their fancy ships without paying USD.)

Does gaming feel meaningful yet? Nahhh.. I think I need a better definition of meaningful though, since I've been almost exclusively focused on "throwing starfish back out in the water" over the past 15+ years. Is it fun though? Clearly! Perhaps more importantly for retirement is the constant availability! Unlike, say, pickup hockey every Tuesday and Thursday between 7 and 8, this is really something you can spend 30hrs a week on---indeed 168 hours if you wanted to. (The main reason I don't do more is that my brain is fried in a way that it hasn't been since undergrad quantum mechanics.) There are ALWAYS players on the servers, even at 6am on a Monday morning. I'm one of them.

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by delay »

Wow, 30 hours a week is 4+ hours per day. That's like my work week :D

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Jean
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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by Jean »

They are always available, cheap, fun, no hangover.
Once you know that, you are doomed.

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by ducknald_don »

It's a rabbit hole I'm not going down.

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by jacob »

delay wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2024 11:16 am
Wow, 30 hours a week is 4+ hours per day. That's like my work week :D
I'm surprised that I manage that much, but the experience actually does feel a bit like how my work weeks tended to go. Bursts of flow state activity followed by rest after the brain gets zonked. Once recharged, another 20--40 minutes. Not following a schedule. Never had. Basically the anti-thesis of Pomodoro et al. Possibly because the goal is not to "make product" but to train to get better. Different time/energy management for different objectives.

My conclusion sofar---too soon though---is that it's very much possible to substitute this for work in terms of "something to fill the days" as long as you're okay with it not earning anything, not improving/helping the world, and somewhat carrying the stigma of "playing video games". Funny though, when I explained to my mother what I was spending all my time on, rather than dismiss it as games, she said "oh, you're doing something like e-sports"(*). Yes, indeed ... kinda like I was hanging around a hockey rink all day playing pickup games (also doesn't pay, doesn't improve/help) except with keyboard and mouse instead of skates and stick.

(*) I was very surprised she knew what that was but it turns out that she knows a kid who attends a school focused on e-sports.

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by zbigi »

Jean wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2024 11:19 am
They are always available, cheap, fun, no hangover.
Once you know that, you are doomed.
I don't think it's that much of a problem. For me personally, it's almost impossible to find a new game I'd enjoy. Most are simply in genres I never had interest in, or are a reskin/ripoff of a game I already know very well (e.g the entire 4x genre seems to just be reskins of Civilizations with various random mechanics added). Also, lot of modern AAA game design focuses around pointless busywork (e.g. crafting), which right away is a big no for me. So, in the end, I mostly just play drafts on Magic Arena.

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by jacob »

@zbigi - I played Civ 30+ years ago. I bought Civ5 on a steam sale but didn't really get into it. If you want something different than colonizing or attacking things on hexagons, try AI War. It is technically RTS, but you can pause at any time and issue commands while paused.

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

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jacob wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:48 pm
My conclusion sofar---too soon though---is that it's very much possible to substitute this for work in terms of "something to fill the days" as long as you're okay with it not earning anything, not improving/helping the world, and somewhat carrying the stigma of "playing video games".
...
(*) I was very surprised she knew what that was but it turns out that she knows a kid who attends a school focused on e-sports.
When my previous job ended I had more than a year where I just had to be available in case of an outage. I could play games all day. I learned that jobs and games are becoming alike. You log on, chat with your colleagues/clan, click buttons, edit an Excel sheet, write some code and log off. Higher level rewards are distributed by office/clan politics. People try to sabotage other clans/departments. For many people metric gaming ("data washing") is the main activity of the day. Working pays money, gaming feels rewarding.

When I search for e-sports and schools in Denmark it shows boarding schools where you can take CS:GO as an optional profile. That's kind of cool!

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

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delay wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2024 2:50 pm
When I search for e-sports and schools in Denmark it shows boarding schools where you can take CS:GO as an optional profile. That's kind of cool!
Apparently Denmark is pretty big on Counterstrike, both in terms of general popularity but also in terms of ranked teams. No idea why.

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by daylen »

See https://citizensciencegames.com/ for a window into how gaming has been gradually linked to citizen science. Recent example being a puzzle in Borderlands 3 to check a computer model of the human gut microbiome. Both science and games love matrix transformations so preserve the important mathematical structure between them to blur the work/play boundary. One way to think about it is that game engines are like drawing tools on steroids that can guess structure and transform that structure with a controller(+). Humans or players aligned with a particular policy can check structure (i.e. does this structure work based on my experience or based on these rules?).

(+) or replace structure with "view" in MVC = (model, view, controller)

Recommend for thinking-heavy types to attempt designing (or potentially building) a game that is structurally different from any game you have ever played or heard of. Consider all of the various mathematical tools you could use and all of the different objects and/or subjects you could represent. A general goal might be to build a game that can crank through many understandable, inspectable, and steerable interactions much faster than you could otherwise by hand and produce an emergent result that surprises you in some interesting way. Super difficult as reality always out-games your game. Though, recursive trial and error(*) does seem to be leading somewhere for me. Even if this is mostly as a result of figuring out a million ways how modelling reality can fail. :lol:

(*) which for me is spending 99%+ time in the design phase and hardly ever producing.

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Re: Gaming/virtual economies (EVE online)

Post by Jean »

There are a lot of very good game now. I have several games with playtime in the 4 digits.
They don't help the world, but they keep me in a learning state that would otherwise require to be very invested in a career to be attained.
Most job don't realy help the world either, at most, they fix issues caused by other jobs.

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