What I Spend

[Scott 2]

My wife values travel. I am trying to sustainably integrate it into our lives. I don't even like saying hi to the neighbor, so this is a balancing act.

This week we spent 4 days exploring a local state park. I want to capture some take aways.

1. The park is only 90 minutes from home, but I traded credit card points for 3 nights of hotel. This let us explore slowly, have a fridge/microwave, minimize driving, and generally relax. It was essential for making the trip enjoyable to me.

2. Along those lines - what if we had camped? Theoretically cheaper, but maybe not after credit card point games. I don't know how to do it comfortably. What we might have gained in extra days, we would have lost in traversing the learning curve.

3. Staying in a hotel, I realized it's been a long time since all the problems aren't mine. While I might have been bothered by certain things, it was relaxing to dismiss them as outside of my control. I've been trying to remove obligations IRL, and this highlighted the difference.

4. We maximized hotel points by going off peak, off season. I learned this means everything is closed. No bike rental. No kayak rental. No boat tours. No hotel restaurants. It's like the world is only open weekends. In hindsight, I'd have scheduled a day or two when rentals are open. It was nice to have fewer people.

5. Since options were unexpectedly constrained, we did try a couple local restaurants. There's a place for eating out - food experiences I've not had. But they are expensive. $54 for two people in one case, $90 in the other. Fresh made burratta isn't all that, but the pizza with black truffle and a cooked egg was fantastic.

6. Our original food plan was eating out of the hotel fridge and microwave. We far over packed, especially considering the two meals out. The hotel room food was completely enjoyable though. We're eating it at home now, so no regrets. It's positive both of us are open to it.

7. Packing for travel via car is sooo much easier. It's like having infinite carrying capacity. Packing goes faster. It also meant food was sorted before we ever left. Very nice. The car time was a problem, right at my limits.

8. My wife loves hiking outside. And taking pictures. She really appreciates nature. We averaged 1mph and never stuck to the original plan.

9. That means hikes will average 4-5 hours. I need to bring food and drinks, or I'll get cranky. Alone - I might cover the same distance in an hour, then rush inside to check my stats.

10. Barefoot shoes work. We spent some time in canyons, with stretches where you can balance on rocks or walk in several inches of water. I was able to stay dry. My feet really did wrap around the rocks for grip, just like in ads. That was fun.

11. Trail running prepared me well. I didn't have any issues with my feet or blistering. I was also able to help my wife in sorting her blister issues. I wasn't training to hike, but the benefits were there.

12. I don't particularly value time outdoors. After about 4 hours on any given day, I was ready to go inside. Despite my heart rate averaging in the low 70's. The thought of doing intense 15+ mile stretches, day after day - that falls in the admire vs. aspire bucket.

13. Especially after adding a pack. I don't even like carrying my water bottle. A tent, all your food, etc? It is impressive. I'm a long way from aspiring to it.

14. I've considered trying a credit card bike tour to / from this state park. Seeing some of the roads and how isolated things get, I'm much less into that idea. A two lane country road, with semis going 75, is scary enough in an SUV.

15. Pictures and video fail to capture the majesty of what you see. That serves to highlight a point. When I see something online that looks insane, I have no idea just how crazy it is. I can't fathom what that person is doing. As a corollary - It's also a little disappointing how benign one's adventure looks in film.

16. Life at home is a big travel constraint. Especially living things depending on you. My wife tapped her social network - so the cat still got his 3 meals a day and play time. But it's probably the strongest barrier to doing more. Frugal ideas like house sitting, work aways, short term sublets or house swaps are harder.

17. We should've brought a first aid kit. Tells you how much time I spend outside or away from home. The nearest pharmacy was a twenty minute drive. Completely unexpected.

18. While this was still domesticated nature, with developed trails, it highlights how manicured my local forest preserves are. They are heavily groomed public parks, full stop. I used to think that was getting to nature. But no - I still have no experience of true wilderness.

Overall, the experience was worthwhile. Especially since my wife lists it as one of her favorite vacations. My only unhappy time was in the car - a vast improvement over my work travel experiences. I've described those as continuous suffering.

We are planning the next one. I've already got travel points sorted to pay for most of it. Money is the easy part.

[shaz]

It sounds like a good trip and it's nice that you found it worthwhile. I can't wait to hear about the next one.

Cats are definitely an impediment to travel.

When you say you don't know how to camp comfortably, do you mean you don't have the skills and knowledge necessary, or that you are mentally uncomfortable regardless, or ... ?

I remember the first couple of times I camped with DH I was miserable because I didn't have the right gear, I didn't know what I do and do not enjoy when camping, I didn't dress right, and I didn't know the difference between what a chipmunk sounds like when nosing around outside my tent in the middle of the night and what a bear sounds like. The turning point for me was the first time I spent more than a week continuously camping; by the end of the trip I was very comfortable.

[Scott 2]

When you say you don't know how to camp comfortably, do you mean you don't have the skills and knowledge necessary, or that you are mentally uncomfortable regardless, or ... ?

It's an issue with skill, gear and mindset.

My wife and I went a couple times twenty years ago. The cheap tent was annoying to setup and sleeping on the ground sucked.

The last straw was a bad trip. We were caught in multiple days of rain and got sick. The final day, we walked miles to the concession, only to find it closed. Burning limited vacation time for a bad experience felt terrible. We tore things down and later donated the gear. I could already afford a hotel.

Ironically, when I was growing up, my parents drove us all over the country to camp. Cumulatively, I've spent months in a tent.

These days, we sleep on memory foam beds. I use 5 pillows. The bedroom is perfectly climate controlled, with blackout blinds. I don't even like trading that for a hotel. My favorite part of getting home is sleeping in my own bed.


I acknowledge it's possible to buy used gear, practice until we solve the sleeping problem, and become far more resilient travelers.

The food situation isn't too far off from what we had in our hotel room. That's much less concerning.

I did look into cabins as a compromise. These days they are almost as expensive as a carefully bought hotel. Some luxury cabins cost even more.

[ertyu]

What are your shoes?

[Scott 2]

What are your shoes?

I'm wearing the Xero Prio. They were the barefoot model available through Zappos that fit me best.

[2Birds1Stone]

Long term slower travel, takes some adjustment. Our ideal travel time to time at destination ratio is always at least 1:10

The credit card point game in the US is amazing if you know the redemption sweet spots. Outside of the USA it gets even better, for example we have 4 nights in a nice resort in Denang planned for March that's only using 40k IHG points (where one sign up bonus was worth ~160k points), between my wife and I, we earned 32 nights in SE Asia for having two credit cards.....the points would only get you 8 nights at a Holiday Inn Express on the big island of Hawaii for example.

Do you live somewhere that getting a house/cat sitter would be free through a platform like Trusted Housesitters? That would be my strategy for 3-4 weeks at a time several times a year. If your area is someplace people want to visit anyway, maybe try putting some feelers out there?

DW and I have house/pet sat several times a year for the past few years in exchange for accommodation and sometimes food.

[Scott 2]

A 1:10 ratio sounds pretty great. I'm still coming around to the idea that my geographic anchor is arbitrary. Yes we have family, friends and doctors in the area. But we don't see them every day.

Especially with our current level of spend, we have the option to be anywhere. Food won't cost more. Doing stuff is often free. The only incremental costs are transportation and a bed.


The home is obviously an asset to be traded upon. I'd guess our area is reasonably desirable.

Making the leap from family and friends, to entrusting our pet with a vetted stranger... I'm not there yet. We mostly tapped family these past two trips. Later this year, my wife's doing the same for a friend.

It's possible we have good contacts through the animal shelter. Or maybe with slow travel, there's a way to happily include the pet. I'm less concerned about our stuff.


The credit card sign up bonuses are a remarkably good return on effort. I'm clearing somewhere between $100-200/hr in value. And it doesn't raise our income for health insurance purposes.

I did unfortunately fumble some of our 5/24 on $200 rewards. I now see the sweet spot as cards with $4k target spend. I've yet to dig into the business cards. Eventually, it might be worth setting up whatever those require.

[shaz]

@scott 2 I can see how that kind of experience would put you off camping. As long as you and your wife have hit on something that keeps you both happy, it's all good.

Have you ever thought about something like a teardrop camper? You could equip one with a sweet bed and also have the option to overnight in more places. It would probably cost more than hotel rooms unless you spend a lot of nights on the road, though.

[Scott 2]

@shaz - I'd happily sleep in a camper, but would not enjoy driving one around. I have vision issues that make driving a normal vehicle hard enough.

[Scott 2]

I tried a hard cider making class this weekend. Three hours for $30. Take aways:

1. The instructor embodied much of the lifestyle mindset here. She loves to brew and made her passion her life. She got paid to travel around judging competitions for Sam Adams for instance, along with free access to their exclusive beers. She was all about using free or discarded ingredients.

2. The class itself did not. We watched her prepare a cider to ferment. We saw the cool tools she accumulated working at the brew shop. We were witness to her greatness.

3. Instead it catered to the consumer experience. Some apples to try. A cider donut. Some ciders to sample. A couple hours of stories from the instructor. People rattling off names of breweries they'd been to like accomplishments. It's not my thing.

4. I previously did a beer brewing event here, through the food pantry. There we did a full commercial brew, over a day. That was far more instructive, though slower. I got to buy a 4 pack of the beer I helped make.

5. The entire time, the instructor was talking about how great her brew club was. Local and $20/year. Now that's the ERE style entrance point. I bet in exchange for labor, you come away with more alcohol than you can drink. Maybe even free supplies.


Ultimately, I reconfirmed alcohol isn't the hobby I'm looking for. While I admired the instructor, she also looked like someone who drinks every day. That's not the life I want for myself.

Scaling the home brew to be financially efficient, is going to require significant drinking. And the opportunity cost is notable. Even yesterday, due to the sampling, I missed my gym time. Ok as a one off, but not consistent with my other goals.

[Veronica]

Scaling the home brew to be financially efficient, is going to require significant drinking. And the opportunity cost is notable. Even yesterday, due to the sampling, I missed my gym time. Ok as a one off, but not consistent with my other goals.

As someone who studied chemistry in undergrad, it was only natural that I would try homebrewing at some point myself.
If there was one constant I noticed, it's that the longer you do it the larger and more expensive the toys you accumulate.

I was able to create some pretty delicious results using nothing more than a large stockpot and a used 1 gallon ish jug of wine from the grocery store as my brewing vessel. The hardest part for me was that the finished product was just barely enough to fill a four pack of bottles. I felt IMMENSE pressure to scale up, but was overall happy with my homebrewing setup that could fit into a plastic storage bin under my bed in my apartment. If you're willing to go smaller scale like this, just doing the mashing on a stove top in the biggest pot you have, you can get started for less than 100 bucks. Splurge on wine yeast though, because I think it makes a huge difference.

If you're a bit adventurous, I've also found that you can make some interesting wines out of whatever fruit scraps you have around. Just freeze them, and boil into a mash when you've got enough accumulated. Kiwi Pineapple was surprisingly nice, but I had nectarines once which made the whole thing undrinkably bitter. Live and learn!

[Scott 2]

If there was one constant I noticed, it's that the longer you do it the larger and more expensive the toys you accumulate.
...
. I felt IMMENSE pressure to scale up, but was overall happy with my homebrewing setup that could fit into a plastic storage bin under my bed in my apartment.

If I would stay small scale and enjoy the process, I could see a possible lifestyle integration. But I'm prone to both iterate and escalate. I'd make a lot and feel compelled to drink everything. The hobby does look rewarding and fun.

It makes me appreciate how affordable options in the store are. A gallon of cider is $6. Add on the yeast and sanitizer, you might already be at the price of a 6 pack. And that's without considering equipment, labor, storage or bad batches.

Kind of like gardening, I think the best I could hope for is free entertainment. Turn the alcohol budget into something to do, equipment and alcohol. But I'm already busy these days.

[ducknald_don]

As someone who studied chemistry in undergrad, it was only natural that I would try homebrewing at some point myself.
If there was one constant I noticed, it's that the longer you do it the larger and more expensive the toys you accumulate.

Isn't that the case with just about any hobby. I've been pondering taking up woodworking in retirement but it seems it's difficult to avoid ending up with a big tool collection. At least judging by every woodworker I've come across.

[jacob]

I've been pondering taking up woodworking in retirement but it seems it's difficult to avoid ending up with a big tool collection. At least judging by every woodworker I've come across.

It depends. Tools often substitute partially for skill. Instead for using the same tool on two semi-different situations, it's easier to have two tools that are optimized for each of those situations. As a result of the learning curve one tends to end up with a collection where only half of it is used. The trick is to start selling off the more specialized tools again. One thing, I can say though, nobody needs the set! That's just something tool makers came up with to sell more tools.

[Salathor]

Scaling the home brew to be financially efficient, is going to require significant drinking. And the opportunity cost is notable. Even yesterday, due to the sampling, I missed my gym time. Ok as a one off, but not consistent with my other goals.

I think it's too big of a hobby to get into if you aren't a big drinker. Seems like getting really into grilling if you don't like meat. Sure you CAN grill just to cook veggies, and they're good, but you're putting in a lot of effort and money if you buy an amazing grill set up but aren't going to be using it to its fullest.

I personally have had the desire for a couple years now to learn how to make really killer hop waters/teas, but I just haven't done it yet.

[Scott 2]

learn how to make really killer hop waters/teas

I do enjoy hop water. I think there's a fermented foods angle that could make it worthwhile - kombucha, sauerkraut, pickles, vinegar, hot sauce, etc. For someone very engaged in their food supply, it's a valuable skill. That's just not where I want to put my time.

[Scott 2]

This week, my wife house sat for a friend. Through a series of unusual circumstances, the friend is caretaker for a million dollar, 4000 square foot home. Top of the line everything, no expense spared. The friend had to suspend her life and may live there for years. She moved in on top of the owner's possessions. So there is lots of stuff. Just walking through made me uncomfortable. While some might be jealous, IMO it is quite the burden.

That was the incentive I needed, to take another pass through my things. While I don't have a lot, the exposure highlighted how much I value simplicity. I played the book Goodbye Things as inspiration. The output was an SUV full of items. To help assuage the fear "I might need that someday!" - I gave myself a $500 replacement budget. I doubt I re-buy any of this. Notable:

1. Acceptance I'll no longer own media. I still have a handful of sentimental books/games/cds/DVDs - but 95% of them are out the door. For the most part, computers and cars no longer come with disc drives. It's rare I play a game twice. I buy new games digitally. I get books from the library. Licensed digital products might be less resilient, but they are so much simpler.

2. I jettisoned most unworn clothing. I'm close to zero clothes in storage. A couple grocery sacks worth. My clothing has zero resale value. It's disappointing, knowing I paid retail (sale) prices. But storing the mistake is pointless. Since retiring, I use Goodwill as my spare closet. Were I to return to work, I'd need new clothes anyways.

3. The quantity of items forced a re-examination of my strategy for selling used. Offer Up stopped supporting my phone earlier this year. I don't want to use Facebook Marketplace. Taking a closer look at what I had - best case scenario was recovering ~$300. For a couple dozen hours of work. Not worth it. I also decided to archive my remaining Offer Up items.

4. I'm once again in a position where selling used feels unnecessary. I'm opting for expedience and simplicity - dumping the load at Goodwill tomorrow. Supporting this perspective, is a total failure of my black Friday shopping. Discretionary spending is currently running at 50% of budget. I intended to rectify that, but came away with some tea and $35 of video games. In that context, min-maxing my consumer products seems especially irrational.

5. As happens - my wife got caught up in the momentum and ditched some stuff herself. It's helpful we're on similar pages here. She did manage to find joy in watching the fancy house. I'm not saying she's better than me, but I would have struggled.

[delay]

Thanks for your experience with tidying up!

1. Acceptance I'll no longer own media. I still have a handful of sentimental books/games/cds/DVDs - but 95% of them are out the door. For the most part, computers and cars no longer come with disc drives. It's rare I play a game twice. I buy new games digitally. I get books from the library. Licensed digital products might be less resilient, but they are so much simpler.

Most of my media went out 15 years ago, no regrets! How many books do I really re-read?

I did keep my stereo set: amplifier, radio, speakers, cassette and cd player. Since this summer I'm trying life without headphones. I connected my old amplifier to my MacBook and it still works! The radio is broken, and I don't see cassette or cds in my future, so I discarded those.

Headphones are a bigger influence on perception than I thought. And music from speakers is better than I remembered.

Taking a closer look at what I had - best case scenario was recovering ~$300. For a couple dozen hours of work. Not worth it. I also decided to archive my remaining Offer Up items.

One aspect of selling a used item is finding it a new owner who will make use of it. Selling feels better than discarding. Unfortunately, like you say many items, don't sell or take too much time to sell.

[jacob]

One aspect of selling a used item is finding it a new owner who will make use of it. Selling feels better than discarding. Unfortunately, like you say many items, don't sell or take too much time to sell.

Also the hassle of going through the motions curbs the enthusiasm for acquiring stuff in the first place. I find myself increasingly leaning into the same trap of "not worth the bother, so I'll just give it away" but that seems to come with the parallel trap of "I'll just buy it".

My clothing has zero resale value.

Are you sure? I've taken to buying clothing in lots on eBay. The main benefit is that the lot is all the same size and often in matching style/colors. Slightly more expensive than Goodwill but more convenient.

[7Wannabe5]

It's always been the case that beyond semi-random assortment of best-seller junk that just sits gathering dust, the books people are most likely to hold on to are books related to their avocations or hobbies. For instance, at more than one estate sale, I have lucked upon some recently deceased old guy's collection of 1970's nude photography instruction manuals mixed in with his less valuable woodworking titles on shelf in basement workshop.