hmm.. which car?

[macg]

I believe that the prohibition of manually driving cars will happen sooner rather than later.

I just don't see the "car culture" mindset in the US letting this happen anytime soon

[okumurahata]

A couple of decades ago, people spoke about electric cars not arriving soon due to XYZ. And here we are. I think we are moving in that direction; 1 or 2 decades is a substantial amount of time for AI. However, I could be completely wrong.

[Western Red Cedar]

Automated self driving taxi systems will wipe out old transit systems on the local level, while boosting city to city transit.

This notion has been hyped by Musk and a handful of other futurists, but I don't see it playing out in most large cities. Jarett Walker explains why in this article, but it really comes down to available space and population. It isn't solely an engineering problem:

https://humantransit.org/2016/07/elon-m ... metry.html

[white belt]

Status with who? Plumbers in the Midwestern US have a much different answer than bankers in Hong Kong.

If the social circle you value, considers a specific vehicle important, figure it out. Buy used, maintain the car well, drive judiciously. Maybe you can turn a profit if you flip a good deal every couple years.

I don't think it's fair to automatically dismiss someone because they ascribe status to an expensive vehicle. Everyone applies a standard. Look at the grief MMM got for his interest in electric cars. Try rolling into the next ERE meetup with an Escalade.

It depends on your role in the social circle too.

I agree with this perspective. A car is a transportation tool at its basic level, but it can also be a signaling tool. It can also be a housing tool and a business tool. The ERE-minded individual should first identify transportation options on the want/need spectrum in the way the ERE book describes when comparing housing options. They should also identify how different transportation options fit into a web of goals. Remember yields and flows.

I think the FIRE preference for practical econo-box vehicles is a good one for the average person but is fundamentally a pretty one-dimensional optimization solution. For example, maybe a car enables you to access rural areas for hunting purposes. Or maybe it enables stronger social capital because you can see certain friends/family more frequently or help others. Or you have a business that requires you to transport yourself, goods, and/or others to certain areas for profit. Maybe you can figure how to build capital homeotically with a vehicle while you're doing other things in your life (for example, many rideshare apps allow drivers to only see customer routes that are along their planned route of travel). Etc, etc.

As an example, it is almost certainly more costly for a criminal defense attorney to drive a cheaper car because it is not as impressive to clients and will lose them business (have had a lawyer tell me this). That's the case for a lot of (sales) career fields; it's pennywise and pound foolish to disregard the various "tribe" signals. If you have FU money you can choose to not put up with such signaling BS, as many in this thread have, but let's be clear that is only an option if you already are in an advantaged position. Also, choosing to ignore such signaling does not deny the fact that it exists.

ETA: Didn't see that a lot of this was covered by @Jacob on page 2 of this thread

[white belt]

Actually, ERE has automobile status. Many of us own the aspirational (and sadly, discontinued) Honda Fit. 7W owns a Smart Car. So, we are not immune to buying cars that reflect what is important to us. The day Toyota releases the Renaissance van we will all be in line at the dealer.

I agree. If there was a modern equivalent to the Japanese K vans for sale in the USA, most of us would be all over it. Small, fuel efficient, lots of cargo room, easy to repair, can be used as camper, etc. Maximum versatility and practicality. As it stands, the next best option is probably a minivan or smaller cargo van, but they are inferior in most aspects.

[Ego]

I nominate the Toyota IMV 0
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2025 ... lity-show/

[Scott 2]

you can choose to not put up with such signaling BS, as many in this thread have, but let's be clear that is only an option if you already are in an advantaged position

It took me a long time to understand this. When you start from an advantaged position, it's easy to dismiss status trappings. This includes demographic factors outside of your control. The worst people assume about me, is I'll help with their computer problems. My lack of status symbols might even be a flex. It's assumed I can afford them.

Driving an old Honda, maybe I miss out on some upside, but I have no downside. That's not true for everyone. Often - when you see people making "dumb" consumer choices, it's because they are actively avoiding harm. A branded outfit is the difference between keeping their job or not. Or being harassed by the cops or not.


Someone parked a Rivian at my library yesterday. I was definitely curious about the person combining those two.

[chenda]

This is why fake rolexes and similar items are popular amongst the poor and contempted by the affluent.

All that being said, we obviously need to be urgently reducing car use and car dependency regardless of status anxiety.

[white belt]

All that being said, we obviously need to be urgently reducing car use and car dependency regardless of status anxiety.

I agree, but it's not as simple as car=bad, public transport=good. In many of areas of the developed world, riding public transport is more polluting per passenger KM/Mile than driving a single occupancy car. This is primarily due to low occupancy, energy intensive infrastructure, poor management, etc. Buses and light rail are particularly bad offenders.

[macg]

A couple of decades ago, people spoke about electric cars not arriving soon due to XYZ. And here we are. I think we are moving in that direction; 1 or 2 decades is a substantial amount of time for AI. However, I could be completely wrong.

But a different type of car is totally different than "the prohibition of manually driving cars" ... There is a deep mindset in the US that driving a car = freedom. Prohibiting the manually driving of a car would be perceived as taking away freedom by many.

Not me, mind you. I haven't owned a car in years, and am quite happy with that decision.

[okumurahata]

But a different type of car is totally different than "the prohibition of manually driving cars" ... There is a deep mindset in the US that driving a car = freedom. Prohibiting the manually driving of a car would be perceived as taking away freedom by many.

Not me, mind you. I haven't owned a car in years, and am quite happy with that decision.

I believe both things are correlated. If level 5 autonomous cars become available, the government can incentivize their purchase and regulate their use. Over time, old cars will organically phase out, including manual driving. It’s akin to a soft prohibition, similar to what is currently happening with electric and combustion cars. Governments tend to exert influence gradually. But again, I could be totally wrong.

[ducknald_don]

There is a deep mindset in the US that driving a car = freedom.

Isn't that largely driven by marketing from the car companies. All those images of wide open roads with a single car on them. Whereas everybody knows the day to day reality is the complete opposite and most people would love to push a button, sit back and let the car do all the work.

Not that I think that is going to happen. I doubt we will ever get widespread autonomous vehicles without constraining the driving environment to the point it is unrecognisable from today.

[ducknald_don]

I agree, but it's not as simple as car=bad, public transport=good. In many of areas of the developed world, riding public transport is more polluting per passenger KM/Mile than driving a single occupancy car. This is primarily due to low occupancy, energy intensive infrastructure, poor management, etc. Buses and light rail are particularly bad offenders.

It's mixed. I live in a fairly rural area and the bus through my village is lightly used but infrequent (every two hours). If I travel to my nearest town the bus into the nearest city is every ten minutes and always full. I'm pretty sue there is a lot more of the second type than the first simply because we don't subsidise public transport very much in the UK.

Of course at an individual level you are always going to lower your impact by taking public transport because the marginal cost of an extra passenger is tiny.

[macg]

Isn't that largely driven by marketing from the car companies. All those images of wide open roads with a single car on them.

I agree it's because the idea was basically programmed into the American psyche since as far back as Henry Ford. And ingrained even more through the purposeful eradication of public transportation / other choices throughout the country.

Whereas everybody knows the day to day reality is the complete opposite and most people would love to push a button, sit back and let the car do all the work.

I don't necessarily agree with this. In my experience, easily more than half the people that I know wouldn't want this. Perhaps it's changing in the younger generations, however. And perhaps it's a confirmation bias type of thing - I think that's the right term, where I happen to have known many people who believe this, and it skews my perspective of the country as a whole.

[delay]

I don't necessarily agree with this. In my experience, easily more than half the people that I know wouldn't want this.

That seems right. Most engineering problems go away when you have a zone that's exclusively for automatic cars. So if people were interested, there'd be an experimental neighbourhood that did that.

People with enough money to experiment hire a human driver instead.

[white belt]

In the USA, a personal vehicle provides optionality and control in a way that is hard to replicate. In some cases it can also provide access, as there are certain places you just can't get to without a personal car. The bus can be late or not run. Rideshares can be late, unavailable, or too expensive. Ditto having friends/families give you a ride. Having a car sitting in the driveway provides the ultimate optionality and control, which is one reason people like to own their own car as soon as they can afford it. I understand that this individual optionality comes at a societal/environmental cost, but of course that is just the hallmark of this entire predicament we find ourselves in.