Meeting, Engaging and Seducing non-ERE Allies: Carrot Vectors

[jacob]

This last prerequisite, Relatedness, is sometimes referred to as Purpose, but this Purpose is always understood to be constructed in the context of relationships with others.

Hm. I want to flag this for further consideration. My sense is if we want something truly wise to emerge rather than just something new, there needs to be a certain intensity of relational commitment.

Well, yes ... I agree that it's important to relate---though I can't explain why I think relating is important, think stock-flow---but the question is whether relating to "other humans" is the end-all-be-all. Of that, I'm not convinced., like, not convinced-at-all. There are other ends. Even crazy ones.

Humans can find purpose in whichever which way. I used to charge into a relationship with scientific discovery yelling (using my inner voice, mind you) "For science!". I literally had that internal dialogue. I'm sure other humans have similar dialogues for other ideas like religion, victory, justice, order, blablabla...

Perhaps wisdom in a very overarching sense of the word is the ability to continuously generate a sense of purpose or meaning, whether innate or by systemic design. Because this implies a direction(?) ...

FWIW, I define "wisdom" as "the capacity to evaluate knowledge"---so deriving meaning or purpose from knowledge would be a SUBSET of that...but perhaps it's the other way around.

[Jim]

Nobody cares if a grown ass man can take care of himself, but few things revolt people more than a grown ass man who can't.

Maybe a grown man who can't take care of himself is revolting to the ERE crowd and other select audiences, but a large percentage of the population certainly falls into this category.

People do tend to care when an adult can take care of themselves and other people, and adults with this competency make better role models than the those who are similarly competent but fiercely independent because they can be admired and also trusted. Becoming a role model is like farming carrots.

I don't want to be accused of conflating the cultural perspectives of SD with individuals, but in the same way green evolves from orange, so does a competent individual adult provider typically develop from the fruits of their own drive and independence.

There needs to be some reward for the individualists to engage with the community. It doesn't need to be 100%, but it should also not be cut down to 0%. Conversely, there needs to be some rewards for collectivists to take initiative and stand out. Again, it doesn't need to be 100%, but ...

Do these motivations need to be conflicting instead of additive? I'm of the belief that my individual stock grows when I perform a community service or public good, for a variety of reasons. Likewise the value of my neighbors may increase to me and my community based on their own unique skills and initiative (depending on their willingness to engage).

"I'd like to get ready for trouble in a deep and holistic way that involves other people." As Vision, being ready for trouble inspires me. I really like the idea of being ready for trouble. As Dissatisfaction, being vulnerable to various kinds of trouble bothers me. It scratches at the back of my mind.

That's an amazingly concise and salient turn of phrase. I've spent my life with a similar orientation, which led me to pursue everything from wilderness survival and ethnobotany to competence in trades and mechanical aptitutude to martial arts and eventually to become a first responder, where I eventually graduated from being ready for trouble to navigating and mitigating real world trouble on a regular basis. One of my takeaways is that managing trouble, absent of a greater community or system is a losing strategy. We don't possess the capacity, as individuals, to innoculate ourselves from all the types of trouble we may encounter, and so we need rely on other people to provide, at least some part of that support. We don't need to be on welfare, but it's handy to have a plumber or cardiologist available when you need them. Every person has a limited capacity for awareness, so relying on someone you have built a trusting relationship with to look out for your safety becomes the only way to scale up your readiness for trouble. So community building, or culture, eventually must come into focus.

[AxelHeyst]

---but the question is whether relating to "other humans" is end-all-be-all. Of that, I'm not convinced., like, not convinced-at-all. There are other ends.

I agree, and agree that it's probably worth emphasizing from time to time at minimum. Assuming relatedness always and definitionally means "to other humans" is some form of anthropocentrism, right? And I suspect that it needs to be clarified that "most of the things I find meaning in relating to are not human" does not imply misanthropy. I think some people get that vibe because they have a 'with us or against us' mentality. But misanthropy is just the flip side of the anthropocentric coin...

Somewhat related, I'm reading Donna Haraway's Staying with the Trouble. One of her themes is kin-making, and specifically making oddkin which I haven't read enough to give her definition of but one of her points is that kin can include entities other than human... and if fact probably should. There's a lot of gold in her stuff that i've only just started excavating...

[midnightembers]

There are OGs and New Folk.

We're new folk, sussing out which local NF and OGs have skills and competence + also the willingness to provide neighborly support. To the point of being irritating, we've been telling and showing NF and OGs what we're doing ourselves, by hand, with primitive tools and elementary skills (here in Year 1 we've mostly been clearing brush, setting up a garden, successfully growing stuff (!), and now clearing more brush to expand the garden - driving t-posts by hand, pulling lots of rocks, lopping enormous invasives and pick-axing out the roots, carrying water, planting nut and fruit trees). Offering to swap our unskilled labor and veggies and eggs for advice, seedlings, and tools. Very quickly it's become apparent who our allies ought to be. There's been zero talk about motivation, current events, shit hitting fan. These are mask-on types by nature and action. I wrote that we "tell" them only because we're the NF so are required to push the conversation. The follow-up "show" is key - once they hear what we're up to they've been coming by to see for themselves. These are the collectivist/flotilla folk "willing" to teach, share, and collaborate with whom we want to do our best to pull our fair share in the long run.

Finally, with some of locals I've straight up said "We're climate migrants," which has been an interesting way to start or finish conversations.

[AxelHeyst]

Maybe a grown man who can't take care of himself is revolting to the ERE crowd and other select audiences,

I had in mind ex-girlfriends after I decided to test their repeated assertions that they desired emotional vulnerability from their intimate partners. They should have been more careful what they wished for, apparently, because they did not like the weaknesses I showed them. Lessons were learned by all. (Fun fact: the only people who have shouted "be a man" and "stop being a pussy" to my face were woke-demographic girlfriends during the emotional-vulnerability experimentation phase of my self-education. Behind the revulsion in their faces was fear. My takeaway wasn't that emotional vulnerability is bad or that they were lying to me, but that there is a skill to the thing that I had to learn...)

...but a large percentage of the population certainly falls into this category.

No argument here.

One of my takeaways is that managing trouble, absent of a greater community or system is a losing strategy. We don't possess the capacity, as individuals, to innoculate ourselves from all the types of trouble we may encounter, and so we need rely on other people to provide, at least some part of that support. We don't need to be on welfare, but it's handy to have a plumber or cardiologist available when you need them. Every person has a limited capacity for awareness, so relying on someone you have built a trusting relationship with to look out for your safety becomes the only way to scale up your readiness for trouble. So community building, or culture, eventually must come into focus.

Ah, well put, thanks for sharing your perspective. This reminds me of something I read in a manual on infantry squad tactics about the force multiplication beyond one individual. A loner in a combat zone is more or less toast, but as you add numbers (of trained / competent members) the ability to shape and adapt to unfolding circumstances goes up quickly with the ability to leapfrog, provide cover fire, etc etc. The attributes of the squad are much greater than the addition of the attributes of the individuals.

[AxelHeyst]

Very cool! Sounds like you're doing it right. I just initiated a relationship with an OG up here who has vast gardening knowledge (I have none)... I'm bending over backwards to build a relationship there, demonstrating willingness to help out and etc like you say.

[Jim]

This reminds me of something I read in a manual on infantry squad tactics about the force multiplication beyond one individual.

Remarkably apropos of the discussion at large, force multipliers can also be pieces of technology or information. They can be personnel, or your own tactical experience, or simply a bunch of hand grenades. Having a doctor friend and having a doctorate are both force multipliers in life.

I had in mind ex-girlfriends after I decided to test their repeated assertions that they desired emotional vulnerability from their intimate partners.

Well, this makes a lot more sense. Props for being open and courageous, that takes a lot.

[7Wannabe5]

My takeaway wasn't that emotional vulnerability is bad or that they were lying to me, but that there is a skill to the thing that I had to learn...)

You should have practiced on your kindly-yet-kooky Aunt Alice first Vulnerability is to weakness as strength is to aggression*. Being vulnerable requires exposing and risking that which you hold valuable. It's one of those words that sounds like it means. It's associated with feminine energy, because it's the flower spreading its petals, the calm open harbor, or a woman parting her knees. It's also more functionally associated with communicating Vision rather than Dissatisfaction. So, when a young woman says that she wants you to express emotional vulnerability, what she means is more something like "Tell me your dreams and your vision, so I can better understand your plan and/or all this mad action you are manifesting."

being Ready for Trouble implies an attitude of exuberant love.

Now you got it! Great post.

*Like if a man said he liked strong women, it wouldn't mean that he likes aggressive women.

One of the young women who was also working with me and the disadvantaged kids in a weird mix of urban/rural (you can literally walk from straight-up hood to deer hunting land) realm that is already pretty damn collapsed this summer sometimes wore a t-shirt that said:
GOALS
1) Be Patient
2)Be Kind
One of the older women who was working with me told a group of us that she thinks we should all be allowed/certified to conceal/carry weapons, because of the level of trouble we might face.
There were only two men working in the program. They were very nice young men who were physically strong enough to, for instance, safely handle a mentally-challenged, out-of-control 8 year old. They were almost certainly not being paid enough to expedite an early retirement.
So, it made me think about how a gathering of ERE2 humans would be almost the opposite configuration and also how some aspects of ERE1 (or the make-up of the forum) would actually tend towards motivating the two strong young men (and even me!) to enroll in computer boot-camp instead.

Being schooled within the Green tradition, I learned the second lesson by the 2nd grade but I never learned the first lesson at all(*).

Interesting. It seems to me that in environments where only Orange or Green/Blue is being promoted by the adults in charge, the kids on the playground will roughly teach you the other lesson. Every Kid Gets a Trophy might seem unfair, but it goes some way towards preventing Big Carl from causing you to regret being the only winner of something so easily converted into a weapon.

Humans can find purpose in whichever which way. I used to charge into a relationship with scientific discovery yelling (using my inner voice, mind you) "For science!". I literally had that internal dialogue. I'm sure other humans have similar dialogues for other ideas like religion, victory, justice, order, blablabla...

Yes. Rare books are people too. "For literacy!" Rare plants are people too. "For permaculture!" I think it can be generalized as your particular mission(s) in the battle of life and other forms of organized information vs near heat-death landscape consisting of nothing but cockroaches skittering and Danielle Steel novels littered across the broken asphalt of an abandoned strip mall parking lot where Little Carl sits alone in a dirty bean-bag picking his nose.

This is also why a both-and or third-way approach is needed. There needs to be some reward for the individualists to engage with the community. It doesn't need to be 100%, but it should also not be cut down to 0%. Conversely, there needs to be some rewards for collectivists to take initiative and stand out. Again, it doesn't need to be 100%, but ...

On the limited occasions I have been in an extremely collectivist, let's make sure everybody has a voice and consensus is achieved, type environment, it has usually been my soon-to-be-regretted urge to simply take the soft lead, as opposed to going off on my own to solve part of the problem as you described might be the urge of a talented, introverted more technician type . My interior dialogue would be "Wow, this group of humans is just a mess of wishy-washy unfocused squish, if somebody like eNTP me is feeling compelled to take the lead." Then I will open my stupid mouth and say something like "Hi everybody! My name is 7WB5, and I am feeling very hopeful and happy to be here today. I love what everybody else has shared so far, but I was just wondering if somebody could tell me- What is our mission statement?"

[Jin+Guice]

How do we attract other like people though? Like when you've got someone in your life who's in crisis and you know ERE could help, what are the strategies for converting them?

We've got the WL chart, which is extremely helpful, but are there stories of actually influencing/ converting different types of people? What were the methods used?



I feel like artists, entrepreneurs, academics, adventurers and naturalists are underrepresented. ERE is great for anyone who wants to do something that isn't a profession or where the profession strips the fun out of the activity. How do we attract more of these people? I'm not sure we've maxed out the orange/ self-interested solutions yet.


This relates to ERE2 in so much as we need higher concentrations of people locally in order to put them together. I *think* it would be easier to recruit people around oneself rather than convince a bunch of ERE people to move.


One thing I've noticed about myself is that when I tell non-ERE people about what I'm doing, I'm pretty negative about it. I say stuff like "ya, I'm just a cheapskate." It's mostly to get them to leave me alone so I don't accidentally tell them about my belief system which effectively no one but ERE people understand. This is however not a very convincing sales pitch.

[jacob]

I feel like artists, entrepreneurs, academics, adventurers and naturalists are underrepresented.

Wait what?!? I thought these sectors remain the current core of the ERE demographics.

[AxelHeyst]

One thing I've noticed about myself is that when I tell non-ERE people about what I'm doing, I'm pretty negative about it. I say stuff like "ya, I'm just a cheapskate." It's mostly to get them to leave me alone so I don't accidentally tell them about my belief system which effectively no one but ERE people understand. This is however not a very convincing sales pitch.

I've done similar but am now actively trying to always be positive about it. (My rebranding away from dirtbag relates to this.)

Coming with and practicing some simple ways of talking about ERE/explaining why we do certain things in a positive, non-dismissive, not self-deprecating, yet non-preachy/evangelistic way, might be a good first step and generate further insights.

[AxelHeyst]

This relates to ERE2 in so much as we need higher concentrations of people locally in order to put them together. I *think* it would be easier to recruit people around oneself rather than convince a bunch of ERE people to move.

Depends on your local population density and culture. You have a much better shot at converting locals than I do - not that I shouldn't even bother trying to engage with locals, but I'd need a huge per-capita conversion rate to make a dent.

[Jin+Guice]

@jacob: You know the demographics better than me. My impression is that we’re mostly programmers and engineers and the next tier down is medical professionals and other office workers. Freedom from bb.

I think there are a fair amount of academics, but they are mostly STEM? I added academics bc of @mF’s “DIY tenure” and bc the interesting part of academia ends up being rock star even if all those papers keep getting published.

@AH: Not being negative is a start (not to dismiss it bc I am still negative about ERE to normies), but I also want to be enthusiastic. We’re trying to overcome strong stigmas.

My friend has this lyric that I love:

“I’m selling your clothes and I’m living your dreams.”

That’s how I feel when I talk a lot of people. But how to be audacious without being condescending?

I’m also not sure I have a better shot at converting locals, except that I have access to more people.

[Western Red Cedar]

How do we attract other like people though? Like when you've got someone in your life who's in crisis and you know ERE could help, what are the strategies for converting them?

We've got the WL chart, which is extremely helpful, but are there stories of actually influencing/ converting different types of people? What were the methods used?

I don't think there is much wisdom in trying to "convert" someone unless there is already a strong interest in the lifestyle. Perhaps you are seeing that interest in allies, but if that is the case then the conversations should flow naturally. I'm personally not interested in evangelizing about a lifestyle philosophy. How does it feel when the vegan/crossfit/evangelical/fill in the blank does this? I think the best course of action is to live a meaningful, healthy, and engaged life that serves as an example to others.

One of the primary reasons forums and websites like ERE and MMM have success is that those who stumble across them are already interested in the subject matter and are therefore more receptive.

@jacob: You know the demographics better than me. My impression is that we’re mostly programmers and engineers and the next tier down is medical professionals and other office workers.

I think these kind of labels can do more of a disservice than a service. I might-fit into the box of an office worker (even though I haven't spent more than a day in an office over the last three years) but I spend a lot of my time writing, making music, taking photographs, cooking, hanging out in nature, and going on adventures. I leverage my interest in the arts to be more effective in my professional life, primarily through communicating ideas. Some of my professional writing is esoteric and technical, but I approach it with the eye of a poet.

Is @mf an academic, scientist, or artist? Is @jacob an academic, investor, writer, or community organizer? Maybe a death-marcher? I think you get the point. We contain multitudes.

I've done similar but am now actively trying to always be positive about it. (My rebranding away from dirtbag relates to this.)

Coming with and practicing some simple ways of talking about ERE/explaining why we do certain things in a positive, non-dismissive, not self-deprecating, yet non-preachy/evangelistic way, might be a good first step and generate further insights.

Self-deprecation is a natural tone for some counterculture movements. The two I've been most involved with, though usually at the fringes, are punk rockers and dirtbags. The terminology and tone in both of those movements reflect the strong dissociation with normative behavior and values. There is a sense of pride in that language and subversive lifestyle though. Also a sense of humor and self-awareness. If I'm dumpster diving perfectly edible food I can tell someone I'm making a statement about the waste in the industrial food system...but, I'm still eating out of the garbage. The punk rockers I hung out with would own that with a sly grin then go and make a communal meal before a basement show.

In terms of keeping my personal message positive, I usually just highlight the environmental angle. I might highlight the health angle as well. It really depends on who I'm talking to. Health, wealth, and environmentally conscious behavior are pretty appealing in my neck of the woods.

[Jin+Guice]

Convert is too strong of word perhaps. I run into people every day who could benefit from this information. They're in some personal crisis or crisis of consumerist faith, but they aren't quite getting it. I don't even actually care if they do ERE precisely, just more fully embracing anti-consumerism and/ or bettering there lives by saving/ working less and not mindlessly consuming because almost everyone thinks that's the only way.


I don't mean to label people as their job. That's the last thing I want to do. I feel like there is a missing contingent of people who are strongly motivated by several freedom-to "professions" which are difficult to earn much money from. There are a lot of struggling but passionate artists, academics, adventurers and entrepreneurs who could benefit from a paradigm where you can get rich working at a service industry job a few days a week. ERE is more valuable the broker you are and the stronger of a freedom-to you have.

I'm not trying to diminish the artistic, scientific or business pursuits of white collar workers. That totally goes against the Renaissance ideal. In my mind the run of the mill EREer is a white collar worker who is motivated by some combination of wanting to escape their job and having an idea of what they want to escape to. That's not exactly a collection of people who are already strongly pursuing art, academics or businesses and could use some help funding their pursuits.

Self depreciation is fine but it's not very convincing. I think part of the reason counterculture movements are self deprecating and sly is to keep out the squares, whoever they may be. But I don't think that's what we're trying to do?

[7Wannabe5]

Health, wealth, and environmentally conscious behavior

If you add in "free time for fun activities" as another arm, you can kind of imagine ERE as some kind of biological entity with 4 different complex protein keys to hook on to wide variety of others without actually subsuming them into the organism. There are very few humans I meet who are perfect match for ERE (even on this forum!), but there are very few who wouldn't match on at least one or two of these arms.

[AxelHeyst]

If I met an ERE person ten years ago I would have ate this stuff up, if presented well.

If I later found out that I did in fact meet an ERE person back then and asked a couple questions, and all they did was mumble something vague and self-deprecatory, or even just generic that made them blend in to the rest of the shallow-depth simple livers, I am officially mad at them.

Nobody here is suggesting we grab a bullhorn and a copy of the book and head downtown. Everyone here is emotionally intelligent enough to not ape CrossFit/vegan/etc evangelistic tactics.

Primarily we're talking about how to get out of our own way and let our lifestyles speak for themselves. Also, when the opportunities arise, to be ready to speak and act eloquently and authentically about this stuff.

[Western Red Cedar]

If you add in "free time for fun activities" as another arm, you can kind of imagine ERE as some kind of biological entity with 4 different complex protein keys to hook on to wide variety of others without actually subsuming them into the organism.

Good point. I've either been a full-time student or full-time employee for the last 13+ years, so I personally haven't been able to exemplify the "free time for fun activities" bait. During my vagabonding days in my mid twenties that certainly appealed to my social circle though.

[Western Red Cedar]

Convert is too strong of word perhaps. I run into people every day who could benefit from this information. They're in some personal crisis or crisis of consumerist faith, but they aren't quite getting it. I don't even actually care if they do ERE precisely, just more fully embracing anti-consumerism and/ or bettering there lives by saving/ working less and not mindlessly consuming because almost everyone thinks that's the only way.

I was much more direct in conversations when I started my FI journey. I ultimately discovered that people like to complain, but they don't really want to change. Maybe this is cynical. I don't really try that hard anymore, but I drop hints and let people know I'm available if they are interested. I've had more success with nudging people towards investing, ditching sketchy financial advisors, and optimizing taxes than any lifestyle changes. I think that is likely due to some of the mainstream messaging regarding retirement and the ability to talk about it with a trusted friend rather than a financial advisor.

The mechanics of FI are simple, but not easy. Earn money, save it, and wait - for a long time. I've probably explained this to over a hundred people in my social circle over the years, but every single one of them has found an excuse (often family/kids) for why it won't work. You found a nice hack to expedite things with SemiERE, but it still takes discipline and patience. The most ERE-compatible people I know get hung up on the investing piece. They either think investing is unethical or a house of cards.

There is probably an analogy with weight and nutrition. Simple, not easy.

Primarily we're talking about how to get out of our own way and let our lifestyles speak for themselves. Also, when the opportunities arise, to be ready to speak and act eloquently and authentically about this stuff.

Can you say more about this? I can't really relate.

People very quickly suss out that I'm living an alternative lifestyle if we are having anything beyond a superficial conversation. Within a few minutes I can see the wheels start to spin when they find out I'm a DINK, with a respectable job who rents an apartment. This leads to a lot of questions about my lifestyle and the choice not to buy.* I can take the conversation in a number of directions, but I always present the lifestyle in a positive light. The conversation might lead to minimalism, travel, investing, living close to services, or sharing a car. I place a pretty high value on authenticity so I'm pretty open about everything in my life if people want to know about it.

I think I would get a lot more questions if I wasn't working or working part-time. I'd like to think I'd answer those directly.**

Also, if I come across anyone who shares even a single interest in my WOG we usually hit it off and get into a long conversation with that interest as a foundation. I'm actively looking for those people and they are usually stoked to talk about their hobby. Even things that aren't necessarily in my WOG like hunting, van-builds, or entrepreneurship will get me going and result in long-conversations.

My biggest issue is that almost everyone I meet is WL 1-3, so there are very few opportunities to explore these ideas. The most luck I've had is talking about shared interests and seeing how far that goes.

*It is definitely possible my experience is simply the result of the social circles I run in. Home ownership at my age is much more common in a mid-sized city. If I was living in Seattle or SF my lifestyle would probably skew more to the norm.

**I will probably be less vocal about the FI piece while I'm traveling internationally and talking to strangers. Insert rant here about seemingly nice but ultimately untrustworthy hippie....

[AxelHeyst]

Can you say more about this? I can't really relate.

From your elaboration on how you handle conversations about your lifestyle, it might be because you're mostly already doing what it is I'm saying I'd like to be doing.

But a couple thoughts come to mind:
.I'm not talking about explaining / talking about FI. (partly because I am not FI and am not explicitly targeting FI, but also because there's plenty of messaging out there about the basics of FI that I don't at all feel the need to add my voice to that chorus.)

.Part of this might be the optics of your lifestyle vs. my lifestyle. You are a successful sustainability professional/DINK/rent an apartment and your social circle seems to be similarly successful professionals etc. (I hope I haven't mischaracterized at all). Yes, it's weird by normal standards that you don't own a house and a fancier car, but you're about to go travel the world with your wife. You have nothing to be self-deprecating about. You can live your life and be pretty matter-of-fact about it. Your life is certainly unique and well crafted but clearly awesome and attractive. Duh!

I face a greater PR challenge. I live in a rusty tin shack on the back 40 of my parent's land out in the desert, I don't own a car, and I take showers from a bag suspended from a Joshua Tree. Explaining the simple facts of my lifestyle is a toughie. It sounds like I failed at life. Jokes on them because I'm happier and more fulfilled and stoked to be alive than I ever have been, by far, but how to explain this? It's easy to just be self-deprecating*, joke about having really low standards, about the leisure class at both ends of the socio-economic spectrum, and go on about my business.

This is fine as far as it goes, but as one of my superordinate goals is to make ERE principles and strategies more inclusive, welcoming, diversely applicable, etc, my WoG demands that I figure out how to do better.

Insular/elitist<------x---just right------->Militantly Evangelical

I think the ERE community is approximately at the X. We've got some room to move to the right a bit. Some of us are doing just fine (like, honestly, you), while others such as myself could stand to experiment a bit and adopt some more homeotelic communication practices. Some ideas I'm going to be playing with:

.Be more forthright about how much I enjoy my life.
.Dial the self-deprecation back.
.Relatedly: stop hamming it up wrt the dirtbag components of my life.
.Try to focus more on telling stories/sharing anecdotes about the cool freedom-to stuff I'm doing and planning on doing: fest, eresidencies, building stuff, trips, writing, creative endeavors, etc etc.
.work on aesthetic capital projects (I genuinely want to do this anyway, it's not a gimmick...)


*Part of the point of self-deprecation of punks and dirtbags is to filter out posers. Punks and dirtbags *don't want* more people to join the ranks. They want to be in a elite minority. Self-deprecation is part of the strategy of keeping that elite circle small. I'm not interested in attempting to 'convert' people who aren't ready for it, but I'm also not interested in keeping ERE to a tiny elite circle.