Being fulfilled, with the ERE lifestyle?

[lillo9546]

I tried several times, in various perspectives, to live with the ERE lifestyle: more calm, serene, conscious, wise, calm, decisive, inquiring, saving, humble and human, but I still failed to integrate and play an active role in society, as well as finding GOALS for my life.

A society made up of school, then work, then the first car, marriage, and the first child, work requires more and more professionalism to build a career, perhaps during your career you meet a person who attracts you and the marriage is called into question, as people change, children grow up. Maybe the new partner is that friend from school who we haven't declared love to who has now managed to have a career and we are infatuated with him.

Having said that, the main problem I encountered with the ERE lifestyle is the feeling of "not" advancing in any social-economic field, and of not finding "fulfilment", a bit like that feeling you get when you are in the presence of a dear person... that society manages to give you when you reach a goal, for example graduating or getting married, and everyone compliments you and you feel part of a group and then you continue to plan your life.

Being ERE was easy for me to apply, but not easy to follow through. Being 27 you want to decide to start a family, but without a long-term partner, you are therefore looking for someone, and living ERE, it is completely impossible to find for. Furthermore, it is also a time to make choices to be able to have a different career, move from employee to independent to make the wheel turn better. And many other things.

It would be really interesting to discuss the fact that a "downshift" lifestyle really allows you to feel better, but when it comes to linking it to the achievement of life, it's as if you can't release oxytocin...

[DutchGirl]

So you want certain things out of life. You describe the standard life script, and maybe you should still spend some time considering how much of the desire to follow that path is your own desire, and how much of that has just been drilled into you by your family, friends, advertisements and society. But anyway...

Sometimes you can't have all the things that you want. And sometimes a thing you really wanted just doesn't happen for you. It can all be part of life.

If you really want to have a partner, and kids at some point, you might have to consider how you are going to be attractive enough to a potential partner for that partner to hook up with you, stay with you and consider you a valuable parent for your kids and how you are going to try to find such a partner (where will you look for that person?). And then, if you put money and effort into this, you have to accept that you cannot at the same time spend that same money and effort on other things. And finally, you will have to accept that even your best efforts may, for internal and/or external reasons, not be good enough to reach your goal.

(For example: the war in Ukraine has changed a lot of hopes and dreams and plans of the good people who lived there. Today's earthquake in Morocco also has unfortunately squashed the dreams of many good people who happened to be there when it happened).

[Frita]

A few thoughts:
1) At 27 years old, one is still in the emerging adulthood. It sounds like you are still in this space. (As a 55 year old, I didn’t experience this flexible decade as the script was different then. I have observed it with nieces and nephews, friends’ kids, and now my own kid.) https://www.unh.edu/pacs/emerging-adulthood It is common to be right where you are and that’s okay.
2) Chasing, striving, or seeking the next-best-thing can be addictive. While there may be some internal agency, the external focus can be a trap. Hopping between hamster wheels, regardless of size, does not work. For me, fulfillment is acceptance of life as it is plus doing my own thing. This is easier when life is more settled, the frontal lobe matures, and with more experience.
3) Is ERE actually “downshifting?” I think it is something else entirely, more just shifting, and notice there are plenty of opportunities for oxytocin production.

[lillo9546]

The most important thing of the topic is that going with the ERE life really make you a better person and live better. There is no doubt.
But inside of me, there is a feeling of "I'm good, but what is my goal?".
So I could be the artist I wanted to be, but don't think it's easy as that.
In this society, you want to be an ERE person, but would you still need to prove:
- Social Status
- Money (not a must)
- Image: Your fitness and look
- Responsabilities:
--Relationship: Family, Partner, Friends, Son.
--Occupation: wheter it's a job, business or a hobby if you're retired
- you may add.

How would you correctly achieve all in ERE mode?

[ertyu]

Ultimately that's something everyone answers for themselves

[Sclass]

I think if you’re worried about this stuff you should just give up. Go and live like your friends and neighbors and don’t look back.

I know what it feels like to want that list. I was young once. At 54 I’ve checked all the boxes. It means little now.

Money would solve all these problems. It’s kind of funny how you say not necessarily money in the list. Isn’t that what this is all about at the core?

If you follow ERE you’ll end up with money. You’ll likely get the other things on your list. Maybe not on society’s schedule but you will get your trappings. And then you’ll realize how meaningless a lot of it is.

I try to think back on what I wanted at 27. It was silly. I can have it now but like my love interest in 1988, I don’t really want that “stuff” anymore. Things that mean the world to you at 27 will make you laugh in thirty years.

Live frugally. Invest your surplus. Last long enough to look back and see how silly you were.

[jennypenny]

I don't really think of ERE as a specific lifestyle. If you read the journals, people are living very differently. It might seem like there are sanctioned lifestyles, but I think that's because some are more suited to ERE than others so they pop up more frequently.

To me, it's more of an approach to living. I focus on being productive. I try to close the loops in my systems. I avoid waste where possible. And every night when I go to bed, I assess whether I left the planet a little better off that day.

The people I include in my life understand those goals even if they aren't as committed to them as I am. My friends and family have monthly bills that dwarf mine (or any forumite) but most of them could dial that back almost instantly if they needed to since they've watched what we do and appreciate the benefits of being as robust as possible (thanks covid). They all live on the same spectrum as me, just farther out (some much farther ).

What I don't do is put perceived ERE rules ahead of our well-being. I used to dream of radically changing how we live but I don't anymore since it would mean giving up the people and experiences that bring us the most joy. I'm now steadfast in my determination to make ERE/sustainable living work in my current home in Stepford. It's not easy. I have to spend just enough, and share just enough, to keep me out of the 'weirdo neighbor' category.

Don't give up your happiness to achieve some arbitrary goal. OTOH, realize that you are drawn to ERE so you won't be happy unless your friends and any potential partner understands your desire to live that way. They don't have to live it, but they have to grok the concept enough to support you. Keep tuning the dials until you're comfortable with your spending and lifestyle. (pro tip from a 57yo ... you have to continually tune the dials to stay in that sweet spot)

[suomalainen]

I used to dream of radically changing how we live but I don't anymore since it would mean giving up the people and experiences that bring us the most joy.

This. Reminds me of a Mark Manson quote from a recent video of his:

Unfucking your life doesn't require some transcendent peak experience, but rather simply doing small basic behaviors on a regular basis.

Also, @op, you already asked this question here feeling "accomplished" as the most important thing in life. Seems to me that you haven't found your core values yet. You are young. Try some things out. Keep doing the things that resonate with you. Keep listening to the ideas that resonate with you. Do less of the things you don't like. You don't have to make this giant leap all at once. You don't have to "hurry up and get there". Step at a time and enjoy the journey.

[sidebar. reminds me of a non-US version of THF]

[OutOfTheBlue]

ERE is about lifestyle design, not any particular lifestyle. That part is left for you to define. And it's empowering, right? What is enough for me? What makes me feel alive? What brings me joy? Your Money Or Your Life (revised edition) could make for a good companion book in that regard as it helps you define your own values.

Although ERE also asks that you might need to do what most people just won't. Which is about challenging your own views and freeing yourself from what others think or find normal, reasonable or desirable. Don't count on receiving a pat on the back. Expect resistance, both within and without.

[Western Red Cedar]

This is such a beautiful post @JP. I couldn't agree more.

I think one common thread among the multitude of ERE journeys documented in the journals is a reexamination of one's relationship with social status. The unorthodox approach to life almost necessitates that one lets go of traditional markers of success and status.

Schopenhauer: "We will gradually become indifferent to what goes on in the minds of other people when we acquire an adequate knowledge of the superficial and futile nature of their thoughts, of the narrowness of their views, of the paltriness of their sentiments, of the perversity of their opinions, and of the number of their errors...We shall then see that whoever attaches a lot of value to the opinions of others pays them too much honour."

[jacob]

In this society, you want to be an ERE person, but would you still need to prove:
- Social Status
- Money (not a must)
- Image: Your fitness and look
- Responsabilities:
--Relationship: Family, Partner, Friends, Son.
--Occupation: wheter it's a job, business or a hobby if you're retired
- you may add.

How would you correctly achieve all in ERE mode?

When you're in "ERE mode", you likely wouldn't want to. You're currently listing the trappings of modernism. You're so deep in it that you might not see the water you're swimming in. Let's step back a moment to appreciate that different isms value different things and often care less or even very little for the values of other isms. One reason that many people don't see their own values is because they rarely leave their own bubble. If they do, the priorities espoused in other bubbles can be downright shocking.

Traditionalism: family, faith, duty to a familiar place and a role in society. A paycheck, being comfortable.
Modernism (you): growth and success in money, power, fame, and/or sex. A career, awards, climbing to the top, taking risks.
Postmodernism: seeking experiences, happiness, doing things together, belonging to a community, being safe.

(Of course somebody will say that they do all of that thus missing the point of the exercise. In practice priorities are typically clear, e.g. sacrificing family for career or choosing the job you love rather than the career that offers the most money.)

ERE (post-postmodernism): competence and independence to chart one's own course, doing what you want within reason, only owning what you need, evolving towards self-actualizing at a natural pace with an ever increasing understanding and care for the systems we live in.

Yes, I will admit that achieving "modernist success" is useful to shut up judgemental middle-class type complainers, but eventually it will also become clear that beyond a certain point, those GOALS only have value because other people think they have value.

Also note that a lot of those priorities are either-or, not both-and, due to limitations set by the laws of nature. They are literally heterotelic to each other. That doesn't mean that a substantial number of the goals can't be reached regardless over time. It will just take a lot longer for those goals that are not a priority.

[Henry]

Yes, I will admit that achieving "modernist success" is useful to shut up judgemental middle-class type complainers, but eventually it will also become clear that beyond a certain point, those GOALS only have value because other people think they have value.

Painfully true. You have just essentially joined the largest group of addicts on the planet, who because of their sheer number and hegemony, do not even consider they need a 12 step plan. Not to mention, it doesn't shut "you" up. It can actually make "you" worse. As it has me. My internal self-critic is out of control. It's like that no neck bastard Roger Ebert died and went to my fucking head and is giving two thumbs down for every fucking thought I have. It's better than most alternatives, but fulfillment is the worse thing to strive for. Contentment. Now that would be fucking nice.

[jacob]

Painfully true. You have just essentially joined the largest group of addicts on the planet, [...]

Yes, but insofar one coincidentally becomes a member of mainstream success as a side-effect rather than shamelessly pursuing membership as a main-effect, it allows a certain cynical distancing and maneuverability. "Oh yeah, I'm a millionaire next door too, but who cares...I know more bourgeoisie yoga poses than you do."

[Henry]

"Oh yeah, I'm a millionaire next door too, but who cares...I know more bourgeoisie yoga poses than you do."

I appreciate that you didn't say Pilates.

[Frita]

Contentment. Now that would be fucking nice.

I am in that middle space of contentment a lot these days. Sometimes it seems a little boring, but I’d recommend it.

[zbigi]

Yes, but insofar one coincidentally becomes a member of mainstream success as a side-effect rather than shamelessly pursuing membership as a main-effect, it allows a certain cynical distancing and maneuverability. "Oh yeah, I'm a millionaire next door too, but who cares...I know more bourgeoisie yoga poses than you do."

I doubt most people in the US would consider an ERE-style millionaire next door a success. Success for people is about being a bit a Greek demi-god, where the normal rules of life (under which regulars slobs have to live) don't fully apply. Such success is attained through hard work, sure, but mostly via some sort of brilliance, either in business or artistic pursuits etc. Whereas, a millionaire next door would probably be seen more like a failure, with a life wasted on eating beans and saving every cent (instead of enjoying money via consumption).

[2Birds1Stone]

@zbigi you appear to be either jaded by PRL/post PRL PL or completely missing the point of ERE. A quick scan of the the journals and conversations would make it rather obvious that your typical ERE'r is neither eating beans nor saving every cent.

[zbigi]

@2Birds1Stone

Typical ERE'r also doesn't have a million in their account - or, if they do, it's mostly due to inflated salaries and stock market. The original ERE, as documented on the blog way back when, was about eating lentil soup more or less 365 days a year, saving every cent, and quickly making it into a large stash on an uninflated salary.

Also what is PRL and "post PRL PL"?

For a view of how the wider world sees early retirement, see this (hilarious) quote from a recent article on fortune.com:

Pinching pennies can get tiring after a while. Just ask Mindy and Carl, an early fiftysomething couple who joined the FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) movement six years ago with $4.3 million saved. They recently sat down with personal finance guru Ramit Sethi for his podcast, I Will Teach You to Be Rich, where they explained that living frugally may be more stress than it’s worth.

IOW, ERE has Extreme right there in its name, and most people by definition are not into extremes. That's why accruing even a relatively large stash, but through extreme (ERE) means, is unappealing to most people.

[Henry]

I'm confused as to what the fuck is going on with Mindy and Carl. They saved $4.3M and then joined FIRE six years ago to pinch pennies? Or it took them six years of pinching pennies to reach $4.3M?

The stories of the multi-million dollar penny pinchers are few and far between and always have a strange dimension to them. They seem to have the same mentality as serial killers but because of some slight and random differentiation in wiring gravitated towards avoiding parking meters as opposed to wreaking ungodly havoc on sorority houses.*

And I disagree with people making differentiations in how you obtained money. Cash is king, no matter how obtained. Elon Musk, Bernie Madoff, El Chapo. The world is greed obsessed. And part of the wisdom of ERE as I understand it is to save in order to invest so stock market gains are part of the equation.

*Apologies to those on the board I may have offended.

[jacob]

Typical ERE'r also doesn't have a million in their account - or, if they do, it's mostly due to inflated salaries and stock market.

Those who have been conservative with their SWR (oversaved?) eventually enter runaway mode. It will take longer to hit 1M that way than pursuing it outright by earning the income but it happens often enough. E.g. an early retiree spending $10k/year but only feels "safe" starting with $500k saved will likely hit the millionaire mark 10-20 years later w/o lifting a finger. Take a look at the SWR thread.

$1M may not impress the wannabe "rich and famous" baller or the average Boglehead, but for most (90%) Americans, a million bucks is still an amount they can only dream of reaching. It may not count as "rich" but it's still "richer than most". At most, the objection will be along the lines of "why did you quit working when you could have made even more money?" A lot of people have no clue how much 1M actually is in terms of passive income, hence all these "I'm 55 years old and have $5.8 million saved. Can I retire now?"-articles in popular money magazines.

The original ERE, as documented on the blog way back when, was about eating lentil soup more or less 365 days a year, [...]

No it wasn't. It was about learning how to cook inexpensive meals instead of eating out all the time. Lentil soup was one out of many recipes given. It just hit a note or a sore spot and went viral. Interestingly, the blog post in question also included a simultaneous recipe for tuna salad. IIRC, nobody ever objected to that part. Weird.