Exactly how cheap can housing be made?

[unemployable]

I mentioned retirement visas in the thread @WRC linked. They're not limited to less-developed countries; for example I believe Germany offers one. They have a minimum age and typically the wealth/income test is not too onerous for ERErs, although most of the income thresholds are more than what I live off in the US.

I looked into them a good bit in my late 40s and ran a personal retirement visa scoreboard in case I needed to pull the trigger for any of a variety of reasons; at the time, Ecuador won.

Countries have been known to change the requirements for these, as well as for the ordinary kind of nomadism, where you simply surf tourist visas. Thailand in particular basically ended rolling same-day visa runs a couple years ago. Apropos to @Seppia I heard Malaysia severely raised the capital requirements for its retirement visas and didn't grandfather existing visa holders. Point is if you're relying on loopholes or lax enforcement or visa runs, this can always change.

[Ego]

All that to say, there are options out there

Agreed. This is an area where things often change. If a person is on the lookout for opportunities, they often open up to those willing to do the legwork.

Back in 2019 I spent a few weeks in Lviv researching Ukrainian heritage. I have documents from the archives. The day may soon come when citizenship is open to those who can prove ties to the country.

[guitarplayer]

@Seppia it is truly impressive the down to earth approach and ERE tactics leaning towards strategy combined with what I gather is a really high up there job. Comes across a nice mixture.

[Seppia]

@guitarplayer thanks for the kind words

@Seppia I heard Malaysia severely raised the capital requirements for its retirement visas and didn't grandfather existing visa holders. Point is if you're relying on loopholes or lax enforcement or visa runs, this can always change.

The site of the immigration department of Malaysia seems fairly nebulous (I only googled for 10mins though) so it could have changed, but the non-official sites still show the same basic requirements i remembered to live in Malaysia (but not to WORK in Malaysia)

- need to have at least circa $110k in assets
- need to currently have a salary of $2k/mo or above
The above two are easily attainable by any ere person who is still employed (or that is willing to get employed to apply)

After that one needs to deposit circa $80k in a bank account and that’s it.

Of course all of these schemes are subject to change. Quasi-first world countries like Portugal, Malta and Cyprus walked back their programs after some backlash, so of course 2nd or 3rd world countries can become even more volatile.

That is why I stay informed on all these programs but they are not THE plan. They’re options that are open today and it’s always great to have options.
But they can’t necessarily be relied upon when planning long term.
In the 70s Venezuela was probably the richest/safest/best country in South America (think Costa Rica today), by the mid 2000s it was a dangerous dictatorship run by a clown and today is a place of misery and despair.

There’s a reason why it’s hard and expensive to get permanent residency in Switzerland

[loutfard]

Latvia, in the center of a safe, small, but depopulating city:
- 40m² well-maintained apartment: 1br, kitchen, living room, bathroon, little garden
- all amenities within walking distance: public transport, supermarkets, diy shop, restaurant/bar, pharmacies, doctors, ...
- public bus ride to national airport or center of the capital: 1 1/2 hours, 3€
- ~15k€ purchase price
- cheap heating: central heating, with possibility to opt out and heat with even cheaper local wood (woodshed in the garden)
- taxes and obligatory charges: hardly any property tax or common charges
- low income tax
- very low cost of living for services: hairdresser 7€, lunch 4€, fiber internet 10-15€, ...

It's also possible to find houses with lots of land in really remote and depopulating areas for almost free, but I'm quite sure that would add a lot to the total cost.

[unemployable]

The site of the immigration department of Malaysia seems fairly nebulous (I only googled for 10mins though) so it could have changed

It seems like the current requirements are on the order of $350k in assets and $10k/month income, but I'm not sure whether you need both those or only one, and it seems like some provinces (Serawak) have kept the old lower requirements. But then you're confined to living in the lower-threshold provinces most of the time? I google 10 things and get 10 different answers, none of them complete.

And the government does seem keen to lower the new, stricter threshold.

I brought this up not to disagree with you about Malaysia in particlular, but to point out how the rules can and do change, which we seem to agree on. I'd really be interested to hear what people who had been living in Thailand and doing visa runs every three months are up to now.

Funny you mentioned Venezuela. My dad built them a steel mill in the 1970s (well, he consulted on the design). He flew there every few weeks.

Sources:

https://blog.seedly.sg/retirement-in-malaysia/ (converts ringgit to Singapore dollars)
https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/economic ... -hong-kong
https://vagabondbuddha.com/my-retiremen ... -malaysia/ (approximates everything in USD, making it hard to reconcile with other sites)

[CS]

This constant changing is why I crossed Portugal off the possibilities list - not even mostly for the cost, but for maintaining mental health. There are homeowners there now going through the wringer with unexpected massive changes. When I saw the home buying information, along with all the other facts the first thought in my mind was “It’s a trap.” The locals cannot afford a 500k house. Once you put your money down, it’s staying.*

*with an Italian passport, that is not really an issue since I don’t have to buy a house to stay, but if you see others getting treated a certain way, I just assume that treatment will make it to me eventually in some other aspect.

Having something to retire to really makes any kind of required additional moving or visa hassles really unattractive. It all takes away from what one wants to work on!

Also, YouTube seems a great resource for getting info on a lot of countries, but that takes more time obviously than a Google search.

[Frita]

Check this out. This person created a home out of a dumpster: https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/dumpst ... n-37235103

[chenda]

This constant changing is why I crossed Portugal off the possibilities list - not even mostly for the cost, but for maintaining mental health. There are homeowners there now going through the wringer with unexpected massive changes.

What are these changes ? I have not heard of any problems.

[Laura Ingalls]

I am thinking about an intensive Spanish class in Guatemala.

It looks interesting. Way less crime than El Salvador. Way cheaper than Costa Rica. Way less poverty than Nicaragua. Way less muggy than Panama.

Cute monthly Airbnb’s in the nicest areas for sub $500.

[sky]

I have heard the place to go is Lake Atitlan, near the city of Panajachel.

[Western Red Cedar]

I am thinking about an intensive Spanish class in Guatemala.

Highly recommended!

I took one-on-one lessons in Guatemala a little over ten years ago. A few weeks in Xela and a week in San Pedro at Lake Atitlan. DW took mayan painting classes in San Pedro as well. I had friends who took lessons in Antigua. We spent two months in Guatemala, traveled all around the country, and really enjoyed it there. The people were very friendly and there are a lot of opportunities for outdoor excursions.

[Laura Ingalls]

Highly recommended!

I took one-on-one lessons in Guatemala a little over ten years ago. A few weeks in Xela and a week in San Pedro at Lake Atitlan. DW took mayan painting classes in San Pedro as well. I had friends who took lessons in Antigua. We spent two months in Guatemala, traveled all around the country, and really enjoyed it there. The people were very friendly and there are a lot of opportunities for outdoor excursions.

Thanks for the info. Currently looking at Xela. The reason I posted here is that for $200 per week you can have a home stay and Spanish lessons. Cheaper than I can live in my paid for us based house.

[Western Red Cedar]

I did a homestay for the first week in Xela. The family was really nice, but DW and I decided to rent a place on our own after that to have more privacy, but we continued with the school. I switched to a cheaper school on my third week, then moved on to San Pedro.

Once you get in the country, it is easy to figure things out on the ground. Lots of language schools, mostly based out of Antigua, Xela, and Lago Atitlan. Xela is probably the least attractive of those options, but the schools are often more reputable and you have access to some beautiful scenery and indigenous communities in the mountains.

[CS]

What are these changes ? I have not heard of any problems.

Hi Chenda - I went looking for the info again but couldn't find it. I sort of checked out after a bit on it because, yeah, it sounded like a hassle and when I noped out my brain flushed the info.

Anyhow, if I recall correctly it was the legal structure the people used to buy their houses in Portugal. First it was okay, then it wasn't. There was a group of these homeowners getting together to share notes on what they had to change etc to be good going forward with taxes and all that. Basically, it sounded like a bureaucratic nightmare that had the dual features of the government not moving well, or at least with some maddening inefficiencies, combined with the possibility (happened once already?) of the rules changing on a dime.

[chenda]

Hi Chenda - I went looking for the info again but couldn't find it. I sort of checked out after a bit on it because, yeah, it sounded like a hassle and when I noped out my brain flushed the info.

Hehe I think you are an EU citizen though so you shouldn't have any problems if you buy. I own somewhere in the Algarve and I've had no issues at all. I would definitely recommend Portugal if you are looking at buying somewhere.

[CS]

Hehe I think you are an EU citizen though so you shouldn't have any problems if you buy. I own somewhere in the Algarve and I've had no issues at all. I would definitely recommend Portugal if you are looking at buying somewhere.

Thank is excellent news. I don't think the citizenship has really sunk in yet. The passport is still brand spanking new in a drawer!
Do you enjoy living there?

[chenda]

Do you enjoy living there?

Honestly it's generally amazing, very low COL (almost half that of the UK) great weather, safe, easy to live car free, friendly. Let me know if you ever want any info or advice.

[CS]

Honestly it's generally amazing, very low COL (almost half that of the UK) great weather, safe, easy to live car free, friendly. Let me know if you ever want any info or advice.

Wow, that’s great to know. Was thinking about living in some places as a renter for a while to check them out. Maybe that would go on the list. Is it difficult to find an apartment with access to a yard? I have a cat who goes on walks on a leash, because why not. She also makes quick travel not so appealing.

[guitarplayer]

@chenda I take note of that too. Out of curiosity, any particular reason why Portugal and not Spain?