My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

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tommytebco
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by tommytebco » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:24 am

Geez O Pete. Half and half is the typical sharing of expenses rule. When I had room mates, how much each earned never was considered
.If you think your booty is part compensation, then we already know what you are and you are just haggling over price. Get a grip and leave or start negotiating,
Were I the person with the resources , I would already be headed for the door!!

AND what is a "BATNA" ??

7Wannabe5
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:09 am

@tommytebco: Maybe you will find yourself more in agreement (or less in ire ;) )if instead of "booty offered as part compensation", the question becomes whether adherence to monogamy by either party to the agreement is required. I know of many females, myself included at one time, who end up paying more than their fair share for "mutual adherence to monogamy" clause. This is an archaic remnant of the dowry concept which only makes sense within a patriarchal monogamous-legal-contract-marriage first-born son inheritance severe-class-division socio-economic structure. It only persists because we keep reading Jane Austen and spreading the meme across the world with Disney Princess movies.

Toska2
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Toska2 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:46 am

Let's change perspective on what is being complained about. The inequality of incomes and not 50/50 splitting of expenses.

She should earn more.
He could earn less.
She finds someone who is an economic equal.

I didn't know dating required joining financial resources. I'd bail too*.


*Cohabitation is more acceptable with my generation imo. Thus I'm making a fine line between pooling & joining resources.

7Wannabe5
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:17 am

@Toska2:

...or they could both agree on a 50/50 split at a level more in alignment with her means, and he could save even more. IOW, she could counter with something like "Nah, how about you sell the house, and we share the lot rent at the RV park." Every time I have offered a partner a deal like this, they have turned me down. Very difficult for most people to agree to lower their standard of living.

tommytebco
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by tommytebco » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:53 am

there are many "ways to get along". Unfortunately, when the echos of the wedding vows, hugs and kisses etc fade into pleasant memories, the ugly side of a long term relationship begins.

The unspoken brokering of sexual privilege for agreement to something (like a new couch) rears it's ugly head (at least in my humble exerience).

I took marriage very seriously, (read "scared shitless") waiting until I was nearly 30 to get married. as others have said, aspirants to the wife title "give it up" pretty easily to land the prey: not so after the ink has dried. I'm not talking about fidelity, which should be a given and often isn't (ref; old stale one liner, "My wife is married, I'm not"


I know there are ideal matches out there somewhere who will pipe up to tell me I "DKS". and, they may be right. I do know they are luckier or smarter than I.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm back a few minutes later and this thread seems to have hit a nerve. I am over reacting to something . sorry folks. fifty fifty is the normal split for shared expenses. Another ratio could be brokered perhaps. but not after the fact.

7Wannabe5
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:31 pm

@tommytebco:

Gotcha. I think the answer is "luckier" more than "smarter" because it can happen within the experience of one individual at about the same frequency as within the general population. As a very high drive female, my experience is sort of revealing of other more often hidden market realities, because on more than one occasion I have received a good deal of financial support from a monogamous male partner with a much lower sex drive than me. So, it's like I was getting paid for tolerating less sex and more sexual rejection than I prefer. They mostly just want me for cook, cuddle-buddy, conversation, companionship or cover ??? Blech.

tommytebco
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by tommytebco » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:08 pm

and
What is BATNA an acronym for?? Someone make me feel stupid!!

7Wannabe5
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:55 pm

Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement

Also, legality of "in-kind swap" means it is legal to swap sex for sex. However, no contract in which one party offers "affection' is legally valid, including offer of sex swap. IOW, if you perform a sexual favor for someone with understanding that they will perform the same (or similar)sexual favor for you, the courts will not offer aid in enforcement of this contract. Modern standard marriage contract does not require performance, and you can't write an enforceable pre-nup that would include penalty on that basis. However, I think this is a moot point, since I personally know of at least 3 examples of a wife "turning back to her husband" in a culture that does promote/enforce performance. In one case, the wife was literally a 39 year old virgin, who still liked boy bands, at the time of her marriage. World is a weird place.

tommytebco
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by tommytebco » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:07 pm

Thank you. I continue to live and learn.
Batna sounded racier before I knew.

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Riggerjack
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Riggerjack » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:33 pm

Once again, it falls on me to be different. When I met my wife, she had transitioned from long haul trucker to local courier, making decent, but less money than I. As is my habit, I then made this worse, by talking her into taking an entry level position where I work. The pay was so bad, she got an unscheduled raise when minimum wage went higher than she was getting paid...

So, we split the bills to match take home pay. My take home at that time was about 3x hers,so I covered a 75/25% split to start. As she got raises, we just transitioned to pooling funds, and spending as normal.

This allows all the pay from OT/call outs to go to the working partner, and no oppressive costs for the lower earner. Still not totally fair, but more fair. Now, she makes what i do, to the penny, and the funds are pooled. But when money is scarce, having it more scarce for one partner is adding stress where none needs to be.

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BlueNote
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by BlueNote » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:16 pm

@riggerjack: That's the sort of micro socialism that keeps successful marriages purring along IMHO.

Marriage is communion (it's more like communism then capitalism) and a successful one requires deep commitment and compatibility. A lot of ERE people seem to really hate the idea of marriage because of the financial risks (which are real!). However to me that's like hating sex because you might get an STD, if carried out correctly you can be very confident in avoiding the risks associated with those choices. Get life partner selection right and it'll make ERE easier, get it wrong and it'll make it much more difficult.

A mate who is actively working against an early retirement would be like kryptonite to ERE. Is there anyone on this forum who has a spouse who is working against their ERE plans? Answer is probably no or the respondent is new to the forums and spouse hasn't had enough time to kill the dream yet. A committed and compatible mate should be able to grok and support ERE/FIRE given enough time and knowledge.

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BRUTE
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by BRUTE » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:24 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:16 am
First attention will be given to direct instructions from BRUTE with time remaining given to creative attempts to care for BRUTE better than he knows how to care for himself.
sounds like the biggest cost of this arrangement isn't financial. now brute has to live and direct the lives of two individual entities! ugh. it's hard enough to waste one life.

7Wannabe5
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:38 am

BRUTE said: sounds like the biggest cost of this arrangement isn't financial. now brute has to live and direct the lives of two individual entities! ugh. it's hard enough to waste one life.
By Jove, I think he's got it!

The male-led relationship model achieves equilibrium through the trade of leadership (not money!!!although some men are more or less inclined to evoke money as signal of power) on the part of the male for the higher value of female sexuality on the open market. Riggerjack offered an almost textbook example above. He assumed authority and gave his wife the instruction to change jobs which caused her some expense in earnings, so he accepted the responsibility of covering the difference for the time being. She may very well have fretted a bit about following this instruction, but she chose to match the risk he took with his confidence in his decision-making with an equal and opposite (complementary) risk in trust. It's this element of risk that keeps a relationship from slowly slumping together into the center of the cozy couch in an undifferentiated comfortable equilibrium of bed-death or the alternate of armed stockade construction down the center of the living room.

The classic example is the excitement generated by a daring dip in ballroom dance. The lead must exhibit robust strength and confidence, and the follow must exhibit flexible strength and trust. The partners hold equal power and are able to move freely from separate balanced stable individual pose to complementary polar balanced yet unstable pose exhibiting the ability to withstand greater tension.

Strict division of finances may not always be an example of err on the side of stockade building, but it does rather give off that smell. Since my whimsical, arrogant hypothesis about the INTJ type (to the best of my knowledge, I have never actually been in relationship or bed with one, but I have definitely dated ENTJ and INFJ) is to stereotype sexuality as "locked dominant", this would be a predictable error in judgment. Also explains why the dating thread on this forum is dead as a door nail. Mutual tower of mastery admiration society with nobody likely to let down their golden hair ;)

Anyways, back to "how do you solve a problem like BRU (ooh) UTE" (and my movie musical theme for this post.) BRUTE does not believe that he has a PURPOSE. Yet, it seems to be the case that BRUTE does have some TRUTH(s) and some GOAL(s.) So, probably he does have a PURPOSE. According to Tariq Nasheed, author of "The Art of Mackin", although it is true that "p*ssy is gold", a man who comprehends how to mack will seek to find the female who will behave in alignment with best furthering his purpose. This is NOT the same as endeavoring to find a female with the same purpose, and definitely not the same as endeavoring to find a female with the same goals, but it does mean that you should try to find a partner who holds the same ultimate truth.

Some may disagree, but it does not seem to me that ERE is a purpose. That would be like saying that Calculus is a purpose. It is a METHOD that can be applied to different purposes. OTOH, for example, "Conservation of Resources" is a purpose shared by many individuals who choose to apply the method of ERE. "It is a sin to be wasteful." is getting closer to an underlying truth, but it needs to be expressed from a perspective of love. For instance, if you deeply rue the transformation of limited supplies of petroleum into plastic objects that are easily broken and very quickly thrown into a waste bin, you are simultaneously expressing value or love for something else the energy held in that petroleum could have been used or reserved to create or preserve.

So, if the partner of the woman who wrote the letter loves her and sees something of value in her character, he needs to come out from behind his stockade and make the effort to clearly express to her what he fears will be lost through her wasteful behavior. If he has a dream of fulfilling a purpose, he needs to make himself vulnerable by revealing his hopes or plans, even if he risks having them stomped, dismissed and ridiculed. Otherwise, his fear will continue to increase her fear to the extent she is opening herself to the possibilities of relationship with him.

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BRUTE
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by BRUTE » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:20 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:38 am
The male-led relationship model achieves equilibrium through the trade of leadership (not money!!!although some men are more or less inclined to evoke money as signal of power) on the part of the male for the higher value of female sexuality on the open market.
reminds brute of the old adage that prostitutes don't get paid for the sex, they get paid to leave. the intricate social charade that is relationships seems to brute like a virus hijacking some humans that suffer from hormonal imbalances.

7Wannabe5
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:53 pm

Well, perhaps you should also bear in mind that...
It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.
Ta, ta... I must be off to lather and rinse this month's box of Blue Hair Matron #5.

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Seppia
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Seppia » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:02 am

Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:33 pm
Once again, it falls on me to be different. When I met my wife, she had transitioned from long haul trucker to local courier, making decent, but less money than I. As is my habit, I then made this worse, by talking her into taking an entry level position where I work. The pay was so bad, she got an unscheduled raise when minimum wage went higher than she was getting paid...

So, we split the bills to match take home pay. My take home at that time was about 3x hers,so I covered a 75/25% split to start. As she got raises, we just transitioned to pooling funds, and spending as normal.

This allows all the pay from OT/call outs to go to the working partner, and no oppressive costs for the lower earner. Still not totally fair, but more fair. Now, she makes what i do, to the penny, and the funds are pooled. But when money is scarce, having it more scarce for one partner is adding stress where none needs to be.
This is what my wife and I were doing when we first moved to NYC from Europe.
I made a decent NYC salary, she made a decent Italian salary.
If we had split 50/50 she (very frugal person) would have been able to save very very little.
My wife offered to split 50/50, but I decided that we would pay rent (largest expense by a mile) based on income, and the rest of the bills 50/50
Now we moved back to italy, and even if there's still a difference in salary, we can both easily afford to pay most expenses 50/50 (I pay slightly more as I always pick up the bill the few times we eat out, most of the groceries etc) so that's what we do now.

My negativity about the article is that she DEMANDS/EXPECTS him to pay more, which is not the standard agreement.

To me, ithe issue is in the attidude

Augustus
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Augustus » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:34 am

I'm going to come out of left field on this one, but the dude in said article SHOULD help the girl if he wants to marry her and join forces. All you guys seem to be talking about finances and how to factor in the cost of a hooker. If the guy actually cares about her, how about helping her get out of debt? It makes them both happier and more stable long term. If it were me, and she was marriage material, I'd probably marry her, make her pay me market rent, and use that money to pay down her debt, forced savings so to speak. Win/win. Other scenarios include: he's just not that in to her, or she wants him to pay off all her debt so she can spend more.

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BRUTE
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by BRUTE » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:43 am

does the fact that aforementioned human male hasn't paid down her debt potentially mean she is not marriage material?

slsdly
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by slsdly » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:10 am

In Ontario, there is no automatic property division with a common-law partner in the event of a split. But we do have something called "unjust enrichment" from which one partner can extract resources from another -- there are a few conditions you have to fulfill, but with such asymmetric earning power, I could at least 1 and possibly all conditions being met.

Thus I would consider taking the unusual position of *myself* paying the *greater* of shared expenses relative to proportional earning power, and splitting 50-50. While I pay more no matter what, it is for very non-traditional reasons: it makes it more difficult to argue I was enriched materially as a result of my partner's contributions. Minimize risk to capital wrapped in a false gentleman's cloak?

batbatmanne
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by batbatmanne » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:24 am

It is not mentioned what sort of lifestyle the frugal boyfriend in the story lives, or what her lifestyle is. This is an extremely important factor imo. There is something to be said for the opportunity cost of the relationship that is nicely highlighted by 7W5's suggestion that her partner move into her camper and by Riggerjack's unequal expenses after his partner took a pay cut in order to move for the sake of their relationship. The idea of equality is all well and good, but if the partner with greater resources expects to go 50/50 on lifestyle costs that are inflated compared to what the partner with less would otherwise spend then it seems fair to expect some kind of subsidy on their part (if this difference in personal values is at all reconcilable with money). Actually, I'm not even positive that who has the greater assets is much of a determining factor in this regard above and beyond financial stability. In the case of the article, though, one partner has a nice little nest egg and a fairly established lifestyle while the other is in debt and has no savings whatsoever, and it's still not clear who has the higher lifestyle expenses/expectations and by how much. It's not hard to imagine that a partner who wishes to drive a slightly nicer car, live in a slightly nicer place, go to restaurants more frequently and/or take an annual trip might pay for some or all of the added expenses this would incur on the less interested or less well off partner. A lifestyle subsidy of this sort seems like it can work quite well. A relationship between a boglehead and a van dwelling EREer seems like a less amicable one unless the boglehead is willing to pay for everything with no expectations of financial reciprocation.

If the situation described in the article is reconcilable at all, they should sit down and work out a budget and life plan for her so that she can get out of debt and build up some emergency savings, and also so that she can establish a baseline lifestyle that they could use to work out a reasonable sum for her contribution to the shared living space. Rather than thinking about a ratio of expense sharing, it's probably better to think about how much she would pay for a similar arrangement (roommate in a similar size/place), should such an arrangement be a reasonable alternative for her. If she would live in an altogether different arrangement left to her own devices then perhaps he should sweeten the deal for her both as a lifestyle subsidy and as a gesture of good will.

7Wannabe5
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:27 pm

batbatmane wrote:A relationship between a boglehead and a van dwelling EREer seems like a less amicable one unless the boglehead is willing to pay for everything with no expectations of financial reciprocation.
You might be surprised. I agree with you, but IME, having been in relationship with quite a few men who have much more money, and also higher lifestyle expenses/expectations than me, the boglehead will be willing to pay for everything. Of course, this is in part due to the fact that although I value frugal lifestyle, I also have been largely choosing to follow male-led relationship model in the 10 years since the dissolution of my sex-dead egalitarian marriage. So, the sort of thing that happens would be typified by the occasion on which a waitress became incensed with my BF on my behalf, because he requested only one menu, and ordered for both of us without even seeming to give my preferences a bit of consideration.

I never pursue men beyond the level of mild flirtation. I never offer them terms, and then try to negotiate a deal. So, they are always motivated to make offer of contract at level they believe to be fair and likely to find acceptance. Keeps their focus on the real competition (other men) and renders my relationships quite amicable and mutually beneficial. So, if I was the female being offered the 50/50 deal as above, I would only take it if it was less than or equal to other opportunities available in my current expense matrix, or I would attempt to fully recognize why I was willing to pay more just for the privilege of living with some grumpy old man. If I determined that I was motivated to pay for the privilege of having sex with some grumpy old man, then I would likely resign myself to gracious exit from the field entirely, and make do with sex life based on looping videos featuring close-ups on biceps of 1970s guitarists. MMV

Felipe
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Felipe » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:34 pm

I tend to split expenses 70-30 but 50-50 would make sense in many situations.

It's all about what they agreed upon but she is in debt so maybe it's a red flag.

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Tyler9000
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Tyler9000 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:10 pm

Felipe wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:34 pm
It's all about what they agreed upon but she is in debt so maybe it's a red flag.
Note that there's nothing agreed upon. An alternative headline to the exact same letter could easily be "I can't afford my current lifestyle and asked someone to bankroll me. He declined. How unfair!"

If anything, there seems to be some indication that she's pushing the issue of moving in and he's not really on board with the idea. Again, we're only getting one side of the story.

Felipe
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Felipe » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:26 pm

With nothing agreed upon, 50-50 is the default. She could, like many people, be trying to get a sponsor. Plenty of quality independent women these days so no need to put up with that. We don't know the whole story though.

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Riggerjack
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Riggerjack » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:35 pm

We're getting one side of the story, sure. But what threw out alarm bells for me was the story. When she didn't get the resolution she wanted from her BF, she wrote to a newspaper, telling her story, looking for the the support of anonymous strangers to back her up. I can already hear: "anon 2212 thinks you're being selfish! And kimberlylittle424 says ..."

Money woes can be worked out. But if that is her idea of conflict resolution, she will be single often, but not often enough.this is supposed to be a relationship, not an election of class treasurer.

Or maybe that's just my issue.

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