Trump - Clown Genius

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IlliniDave
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave »

jacob wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:03 pm

I would also note, that liberals are much more politically active on social media now (as far as I can tell) under Trump than they were under Obama. Conversely, conservatives are much less politically active than they were under Obama. There's absolutely a demand for unflattering reporting about the opposition---it's just that it's coming from the other side now. MSNBC has grown spectacularly in viewership since Trump was elected, for example.
Interestingly, my experience is the opposite (it being limited to FB as far as social media goes), there was quite a lot of left wing "presence" from the 2012 election right up until election day 2016, then a steep falloff after the initial post-election garment-rending ran its course to near silence once we had the assassination attempt and the collusion narrative fizzled. Now there's only a little occasional angst about health care legislation. The right has also toned down quite a lot. But maybe FB just knows I don't like it from either side and they screen it all out for me.

I don't think the issue is whether there is both right and left on TV, there is, although it is many outlets versus one. It's the degree of rancor/crudity and hate the respective sides use when covering the opposite side that sets them apart.

And don't discount the newspapers too much. Maybe not too many people read them, but much of the contentious reporting/discussion on TV of late is simply extrapolating from things that appear first in the New York and Washington papers (lately mostly leaks by anonymous sources). They've also set DT a-twittering more than once.
Last edited by IlliniDave on Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

IlliniDave
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave »

EdithKeeler wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:15 pm
I'm amazed sometimes at how ubiquitous Fox is--doctor waiting rooms, cafeterias, even bars.
Who'd have thought two neighboring states in the south could be so different! I have yet to see Fox News shown in public anywhere around here, nor anywhere I've been in the last 15 years long enough to see a TV in a public place (Alabama, Illinois, and Minnesota). It's 100% CNN in this corner of N. Alabama when it's news, which is not often. The caveat is that I don't spend a lot of time in public places where I'll notice what might be playing on a TV. Back home my dad keeps one TV tuned to MSNBC all the time and it is the "background noise" in the house whenever he's awake. When he gets going on politics I just nod and smile politely--the gulf with a middle-of-the-roader like me is too vast to bridge. Definitely there can be very different perspectives (or spin) on the same events. As well as differences in what is covered.

bryan
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan »

jacob wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:28 am
Once we went to watch a game against Alabama with some friends because it was only on cable. Most of the people there were Alabama fans and they hated Notre Dame. I didn't know why because until then I had never even heard of Alabama (the team). The host even had to tell them to tone it down because there were also some ND fans at the party. We were just there to watch the game. I don't understand why other people can't be decent.
Us vs them and grudges. Alabama hating ND might have started in earnest in 1966 when ND opted to cowardly tie a late season game against MSU leaving BAMA as the only undefeated team, yet ND received the AP championship. Many think it was AP voters (and ND choosing to tie) punishing BAMA for segregation and not wanting BAMA to have three national championships in a row (still has never been done). ND never went to bowl games to put their ranking/awards on the line. Also ND is one of the only teams to have a positive record against BAMA, and doing so when BAMA was good. Also there was the dynamic back then that ND fans thought they are so much better than racist redneck Alabamaians.

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

good speech. brute would watch again.

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GandK
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by GandK »

Haidt lovers: the Make Me Smart podcast had chosen 'The Righteous Mind' for their first book club selection. The episode where they discuss the book went up yesterday.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Is the Clown Genius theory officially falsified now? Can we agree yet that potus is a low-brow pawn in a Russian scheme to discredit the US and weaken western influence in eastern Europe?

In all seriousness, I'm interested if anyone can still convince me that this dude is still just manipulating us with his unique insight into human psychology.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

It will be difficult for a lot of people (in general), as many have staked their identity on Trump. I'm not sure anything other than a video showing Trump kneeling before Putin and kissing the ring (no, I don't think it goes this far) will cause some of them to give up support. The "genius" part of the moniker is really showing it's age quickly and not just on the Russia stuff.

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

Tweet of the day: "The W.H. is functioning perfectly, focused on HealthCare, Tax Cuts/Reform & many other things. I have very little time for watching T.V."

Apparently, he's such a genius he can compose tweets accurately repeating and responding to things he has not even seen. I actually know most of what's on TV about Trump from Trump repeating it ad nauseum.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

Is it too late to ask for a mulligan?

I'll agree that Trump should just be called 'clown' at this point, but I wouldn't call him a pawn in Putin's scheme. That's giving both of them too much credit. And Putin had nothing to do with Comey's influence on the outcome. Or Anthony Weiner. Or Clinton's health problems and mishandling of them. Post-game analysis showed that it really came down to voting/campaigning (or lack of) in four states and weak support for HRC in the african-american community. I don't think that had anything to do with the Russians.

Has anyone read Shattered? It's not a great read, but it makes the case (successfully IMO) that they didn't learn their lessons from 2008 -- when she lost out to another candidate who was significantly better at messaging -- and that's ultimately why she lost again.

I'm not excusing the meddling. If it turns out that DJT or junior actively sought out Russian help, then I'm all for impeachment. I'm just not sure if the meddling had a tangible effect. The fact that the DNC isn't cooperating with the investigation makes me wonder what the DNC was up to (besides suppressing Sanders). Pretty distasteful all around.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

jennypenny wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:10 pm
...but I wouldn't call him a pawn in Putin's scheme. That's giving both of them too much credit.
I would probably call him somewhat of a pawn. If Trump and his advisers fall for the info great. Russia helps to get a significantly more friendly president elected. Plus, if all of this ever gets found out it further erodes America's claim as the golden city on the hill and, if it doesn't, it is a potential sword to hold over Trump's head the entire time he is in office. All of this helps Putin.

A secondary impact is a slight bump in popularity at home having given America a black eye. Not a terrible thing for him, but again it's short-term.

The only real downside is making Clinton an enemy, and she was probably a staunch enemy of Putin with or without this meddling against her. Little downside for Putin in the short-term. Of course, long-term is where the intel types always fail because it's impossible to predict what will happen. Too much confidence, too many variables, and too many humans being human.

I would agree that there is definitely no dark smokey room with Putin and Trump sitting around a table planning all this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eosfNwMpMs
There is some happenstance, some unintentional crossing the line, and some intentional crossing the line. That's almost always the way it works.

So, not a pawn how you probably meant it. He wasn't controlled directly by Putin, but he was a pawn in Putin's machinations.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

I would definitely agree that Clinton isn't blameless in the loss. She was a terrible candidate and they made a lot of mistakes. There is no doubt about that.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ThisDinosaur »

As ive said before, its too oversimplified to assign any one cause for the election outcome. Clinton's at fault as are Weiner, Comey, and popular disgust for demopublican ineffectiveness.

But Putin deserves full credit for an almost flawless plan. Even if Clinton had won, she would have been delegitamized by either the primary-rigging allegations or the election-rigging allegations that would have resulted had Obama publicized what they knew about Trump/Russia before November.

Either way, the franchise is undermined.

The icing on the cake is the fact that the winner has been caught soliciting his help AND covering it up. Trump is the Clown to Putin's Genius.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

Neither has been caught soliciting yet, have they?

I think you guys are buying into Putin's PR a little too much. He hates the Clintons and takes shots at them at every opportunity (and Trump benefited from that) but I think mostly Putin milks every situation for all he can and takes credit for things after the fact.

The one thing that I do wonder is if the Russians made sure that fake dossier got into the DNC's hands to start the whole Russian narrative. They didn't actually have to meddle in the election--only convince people that they did--in order to undermine the election. That's the most plausible scenario to me.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ThisDinosaur »

JP, I agree that last sentiment is very likely. But part of that plan still involved (successfully) getting several campaign members, including his family, to take suspicious meetings and lie about it. Jr., in particular, has very clearly been caught breaking the law.

Even if Seth Rich was the real email leaker(doubtful), Putin undoubtedly has been working on this plan for a while.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

How did Don Jr break the law? What he did was dumb but I don't think it was illegal.

https://jonathanturley.org/2017/07/10/w ... collusion/


BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:53 am
I'm interested if anyone can still convince me that this dude is still just manipulating us with his unique insight into human psychology.
brute thinks liberal humans get hung up on the "genius" or "manipulation" part. Trump manipulates humans in the same way a cute puppy or a hot girl manipulates humans. whatever he does might not be devious, cigar-smoke-filled-backroom conspiracy, but it's working on a lot of humans, pushing their emotional buttons.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Disagree about the deviousness. The version of Scott Adams' thesis that is still plausible is that Trump's low intelligence doesn't prevent him from using manipulation skills he learned from Tony Robbins, Wharton business school, and his father. Devious but unsophisticated is all he has left.

IlliniDave
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave »

Interesting interpretation. Would the same interpretation apply to, say, a foreign national that might, say, appear at a party's national convention and speak disparagingly against an opposition party candidate? Luckily for some, it's clear Mueller will only be fishing off the right side of the boat.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jacob »

Here are the top 5 articles (judged by font sized and reading left-right, top-down) currently on http://foxnews.com (go look for yourself)
  • WORK OF A SERIAL KILLER? Remains of missing man found in mass grave on Pennsylvania farm (large print)
  • Sanders draws Democratic challenger tired of his 'Robin Hood shtick' (medium font)
  • Teacher, 40, who had sex with teen student, is re-arrested for violating probation (medium font)
  • Why alligator attacks are spiking in Florida (medium font)
  • Trump: Son's meeting with Russian lawyer was routine (small font) [Not really a headline as such. Foxnews leads with 4 headlines.]
Here are the top 5 articles currently on http://msnbc.com (go look) [msnbc uses a mobile-friendly (ARGH) format, so you really have to scroll a lot]
  • Changes in Senate Health Care Bill Coming But Medicaid Cuts Remain
  • GOP in crisis over Trump Jr.-Russia email revelation
  • Parisians Resigned to Hosting President Donald Trump in France for Bastille Day
  • Trump: Claims of collusion 'dumbest thing I've ever heard'
  • Intel cites Trump Russia timeline starting in spring 2015: WSJ
Here's http://memeorandum.com (which algorithmically ranks according to what the news services are mostly talking about --- these are toplines and they attempt to group them in related matters .. so the top entry here has many related sub-coverings.)
  • Russian Officials Overheard Discussing Trump Associates Before Campaign Began
  • Exclusive: DOJ let Russian lawyer into US before she met with Trump team
  • Here comes the brand new Senate health bill
  • Sheldon Silver's Conviction Is Overturned
  • Justice Department Defies Court Deadline To Release Sessions' Contacts With Russians
Here's http://drudgereport.com selection of the top news.
  • OBAMA DOJ GAVE NATALIA SPECIAL ENTRY MYSTERY SURROUNDS VESELNITSKAYA
  • Group Robs, Sexually Attacks Woman Leaving Church in Queens: Police
  • Gore compares climate fight to slavery, gay rights & apartheid at Aussie summit
  • TRUMP Records His 23rd New Stock Market High – Market Up 17% Since Election
  • Ivanka Trump & Jared Kushner set to mingle with media moguls at Sun Valley conference
Question:
1) How would a person whose news stream is only/mainly reported via one of these four outlets see the world?
2) How do you think these headlines in these outlets (e.g. foxnews or msnbc) would be today in an alternate universe where Hillary Clinton had won the election---presuming the same rate of alligators, serial killers, and naked school teachers---if it had been discovered that Chelsea Clinton had attended a meeting with a lawyer acting for the Chinese government claiming to have damaging information on Trump they were willing to share in support of the campaign against Trump; if emails confirmed that Bill Clinton and John Podesta were aware of this offer. If the National Security Advisor had been found to work with China to find Trump's tax returns. If that person and several people in the Clinton administration had not disclosed several meetings with Chinese government officials when filing for their security clearances. If HRC during the campaign had stood up encouraging those Chinese hackers to go digging. If those tax returns had subsequently been released via wikileaks. (Borrowing this exercise from https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... ng-clinton)

PS: These questions are strictly intended to investigate how things would be reported on different outlets and what kind of world-view single-source voters would construct from that if the shoe was on the other foot.

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