My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

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Tyler9000
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Tyler9000 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:18 am

My immediate reactions after reading the article and some of the comments from that site:

1) If the gender roles were reversed (boyfriend owed her $10k after she bailed him out of huge CC debt and he expected her to carry the financial weight for their shared lifestyle) I think many people would be advising her to dump him.

2) I'm very lucky to have married an economic equal happy to pool and responsibly manage resources without the need to keep score.

3) I'd be interested in hearing his side of the story.

@Jacob - I think you nailed it on the Wheaton level issue. They might as well be speaking completely different languages.

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BRUTE
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:50 am

interesting how the genders are so emotionally loaded in the language that they completely obfuscate the issue. humans have to resort to referring to "one side" and "the other side" to even neutrally state the question.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by jacob » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:59 am

@BRUTE - Only in the English language ;-)

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by IlliniDave » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:05 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:00 am

Seriously, I agree with what you are saying, but it occurred to me that one of the known problems with forming new relationship for older individuals is that our values are no longer floating around in vague abstract form, but have solidified into concrete anchors. I mean, given the opportunity, what is the possibility that you would choose to reside rent-free in your retirement years with some attractive partner on her small, lovely farm in France, rather than on your own wooded retreat relatively near to your family? In any circumstance where money is no longer the primary limiting factor to achieving ideal lifestyle, money will also no longer be the primary limiting factor when it comes to merging lifestyle. So, it seems to me to be a mistake to get in the habit of functioning as though money will always be a primary limiting factor.
I would have chosen "solid foundations" or some such instead of "concrete anchors", but your point still stands. I suppose when we are younger we tend to seek our identity through relationships, at least more so than some of us who wind up later in life with the opportunity/requirement to adjust to operate in standalone mode. Value definition is inherent to that process. For me that makes some things less squishy (YMMV). I think you know that the odds, to borrow from Hitchhikers Guide, are absurdly remote that I'll ever stray too far from my happy little vision. But the odds are always defied and someone wins the big prize in the Lotto on a regular basis. It probably is indeed a mistake to live viewing money as a limiting factor, unless it is. I've tried to set things up so money is an enabler to push a little beyond the informal boundaries implicit to my plan if it strikes my fancy, but you never know how that will wind up. Although the original topic was a gender-entwined, relationship-entwined, financially-entwined scenario, I've been doing my best to comment independent of those things. IOW, looking at just the financial perspective, even though a blatant financial mismatch (in terms of values, not magnitude) is a definite no-go for me regarding potential future partners, there are a lot of non-financial things that wind up getting sorted out much sooner. And financial values that are incompatible with mine could be a perfect fit with the next guy. Hence my view of "fair" being relative rather than absolute.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by jacob » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:44 am

Dear FASB,
I've recently become aware of the concept of sexual capital accounting from a personal finance forum on the internet where I usually learn all kinds of interesting stuff. I want to include this idea for my personal cashflow and balance sheet statements to better account for the imputed sexual value of my exclusive relationship. My question is how do I depreciate my sexual capital and whether I should use mark-to-model or mark-to-market under GAAP?
Sincerely,
XXX

Dear XXX,
Since sexual transactions (other than in-kind swaps) are illegal is most jurisdictions there's currently no GAAP guidance for sexual capital under FINRA529 for public offerings in the secondary market. You are, however, free to calculate non-GAAP numbers for your own internal accounting. Mark-to-model is widely applied by banks as way to account for individual measures of value. Ask your partner how you stack up, so to speak, relative to their preferred model, so to speak, again. Alternatively, you may prefer mark-to-market which is generally done in an open-bidding setting where you solicit assessments from at least three independent bidders using the middle-bid as your book-entry. Depreciation and amortization depends on listed relationship status. You can either use full depreciation in the acquisition year (similar to what is used for tools or one-off jobs) or you can use a linear depreciation over 30 or 60 years (similar to what is used for fixed asses).
Sincerely,
FASB

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by halfmoon » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:17 pm

jacob wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:44 am
similar to what is used for fixed asses
:lol:

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:57 pm

jacob wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:44 am
Posts: 9000
wait for it..

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:39 pm

jacob said: Clearly very different Wheaton levels when it comes to handling money and very different values when it comes to what money represents.
I don't think it is possible to overstate the point you are making by offering clear division between skills and values here. I have become rather morbidly fascinated with the nth degree counter-example offered by my 77 year old friend whose net worth is well over 70 million dollars. His long-term GF is literally less than one degree away in functioning from being a crack whore. If the female letter writer above is a -2, this woman is a -10. She calls him on the phone and screams at him to bring her money. He finds this amusing. My BF and I wonder why he puts up with her, and have even been slightly worried that she might do him physical harm. The only rational answer that I can come up with is that they are both highly motivated by money, so that is what they have in common. He once told me that he wished he knew a nice woman he could talk about the stock market with over dinner.
Dear XXX
Gotcha except for the part about depreciation and amortization depending on listed relationship status. I've never applied the sort of rigorous analysis you are suggesting (although I do have a pretty good estimate of both market to model and mark-to-market due to the fact that I have dated a lot and I am dorky enough to talk with them men I date about such matters. Ffor instance, I know that if I looked like Taylor Swift my current BF would cover all my expenses at something approximating middle-upper-middle affluence class level, so I just need to calculate relative weight of tall, blonde, pale, green eyes vs. young, extremely thin and adjust by factor of 4X as pretty), but my rough analogy would be something like a charming, semi-decrepit vacation cottage that is either run as airbnb with possibility of multiple guests, long-term open end exclusive leased, or life-leased with penalty for early contract release. Does this seem reasonable?

@IlliniDave: I am more impulsive than you, so my fear is that I would run off to that farm in France, but then end up in a state of regret and/or resentment. I am already somewhat regretting my impulsive suggestion that my BF could park my camper on his land. I need to clearly communicate an easy-out clause to which we can both agree.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by scriptbunny » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:32 pm

@7w5 - Your question, my brain, does not compute. My boyfriend and I are partners. I don't seek to compel him through power or vice versa-- at least not consciously. Our dynamic is to help the family unit (i.e. each other) out. Once we're married I expect our finances to reflect that single unit-ness and be joined, but while we're just dating they continue to be separate for prudence sake. If he earns more someday that'll just mean more resources within the family unit. I don't expect that to change our relationship much except that extra money is always nice.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:58 pm

@scriptbunny: There is a theory of relationships that holds that for a two body system to remain in equilibrium, levels of power of the individuals must remain equivalent within some rather narrow margin. There is some evidence for this theory because the likelihood of divorce after such events as one partner winning the lottery or one partner going blind are very high. The obvious problem with valuing commitment to relationship over individual functioning is the three-legged race or Harrison Bergeron effect which results in both partners slowly, unconsciously ratcheting down functioning to match that of partner. Therefore, I would assume that since your financial functioning is superior to your partner's, and you are both freely choosing to remain in relationship with each other, there must be some realm in which you believe your BF is higher functioning than you, and that realm would likely be a place in which you could well achieve personal growth. For instance, I tend towards klutz, so I admired my ex for being more graceful or physically intelligent than me, so at one point in my process of therapy I had to work on becoming more graceful myself.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by scriptbunny » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:33 pm

@7w5 - I think I understand what you mean. To clarify, my boyfriend and my spending paradigms are pretty similar; it is our salaries that differ. I would say that-- absent the crude vagaries of living in the modern world-- my weighting of the importance of salary on character is low. I don't think of someone making $100k as a better person than one making $50k by virtue of their salary differential. Because it is a characteristic I do not give much weight, assuming we are within narrow margins of each other on other metrics of much greater weight, it is not something that prohibits us from being equals.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:21 pm

@scriptbunny: Okay, I totally gotcha now. It's like how I won't even look at a guy who doesn't have a decent set of guns, but a cute azz is nice but not necessary.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Seppia » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:26 pm

He should just run as fast as possible in whatever opposite direction she is.
The very short text provides more than enough clues that these two are playing a different sport in terms of managing money, and this never ends well if the less... uh... experienced party recognizes the large gap in skills and just tries to follow as best as he/she can.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by BlueNote » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:13 pm

Maybe she has a lot of other capital that really can't be unlocked unless he fully commits, someone mentioned sexual capital. Maybe he makes a ton of money and can afford a stay at home spouse and maybe she has a lot of 'capital' in that area that hasn't been tapped yet. I know it sounds like I am venerating 1950's western culture but this situation isn't necessarily untenable.
jacob wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:44 am
you can use a linear depreciation over 30 or 60 years (similar to what is used for fixed asses).
:lol:

I wonder if the units-of-production or double declining balance method might be a better representation of economic substance.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:20 am

@BlueNote: I agree.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-belk ... 76731.html
Then, with a sentence, came the beginning of what might well turn out to be the end.

“I need a wife,” wrote Judy Syfers in an essay in the first issue of Ms. Magazine in 1971. In the tart paragraphs that followed she removed centuries of gauzy build-up:

I want a wife who will keep my house clean. A wife who will pick up after my children, a wife who will pick up after me. I want a wife who will keep my clothes clean, ironed, mended, replaced when need be, and who will see to it that my personal things are kept in their proper place so that I can find what I need the minute I need it. I want a wife who cooks the meals, a wife who is a good cook. I want a wife who will plan the menus, do the necessary grocery shopping, prepare the meals, serve them pleasantly, and hten do the cleaning up ...

My God, who wouldn’t want a wife?

Yes, and given that definition, who in their right mind would want to be one?
In my experience the answer to the second question would be that "wife" can be a reasonably enjoyable profession for a frugal generalist. There is a large overlap between the concepts and practices of frugality and home economics. You are engaged in the exercise of trying to minimize expense while maximizing quality in the realm of consumption within the home. In the not-so-distant past, a good deal more production took place within the home, to the extent that division of labor improved efficiency. Nowadays, not so much.

Anyways, Victorian humor created the stereotype of the very frugal old wealthy bachelor who finally chooses to marry his most penny-pinching old housekeeper.

And:
Peter, Peter pumpkin eater,
Had a wife but couldn't keep her;
He put her in a pumpkin shell
And there he kept her very well.
Is relic of the fact that we are still less than a century away from the era in which it was a sign of socio-economic decline from the middle class if a man had to "send his wife out to work." Because I am a bit older than most of you, and I have been in relationship with even older men and men from more "traditional" cultures, it is somewhat interesting to observe how quickly the balance has tipped in this regard, with so many young men not even having a clue how pleasant it is to have a wife. Also interesting to note that in many novels set in post-next-apocalypse future, the female characters end up back in the home.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by BRUTE » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:31 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:20 am
I want a wife who will keep my house clean. A wife who will pick up after my children, a wife who will pick up after me. I want a wife who will keep my clothes clean, ironed, mended, replaced when need be, and who will see to it that my personal things are kept in their proper place so that I can find what I need the minute I need it. I want a wife who cooks the meals, a wife who is a good cook. I want a wife who will plan the menus, do the necessary grocery shopping, prepare the meals, serve them pleasantly, and hten do the cleaning up ...

My God, who wouldn’t want a wife?
brute keeps his own house clean, which takes about 10 minutes a week. brute doesn't have children to pick up or look after. brute can pick up after himself. brute can do his own laundry and iron his own clothes. brute puts his personal things in their proper place anyway. brute cooks his own meals, and is a good cook. he plans his own menus and does the shopping and preparing and serving them pleasantly, and he enjoys doing the dishes.

so apparently, brute has no need for a wife.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by Felipe » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:41 pm

"Since sexual transactions (other than in-kind swaps) are illegal "

Excuse my innocence, but what's an in-kind swap?

@Brute
you sound like a man who has his shit together.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by BRUTE » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:17 pm

Felipe wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:41 pm
you sound like a man who has his shit together.
when the bar is as low as "ability to cook AND clean up once in a while"..

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by halfmoon » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:26 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:31 pm
brute keeps his own house clean, which takes about 10 minutes a week. brute doesn't have children to pick up or look after. brute can pick up after himself. brute can do his own laundry and iron his own clothes. brute puts his personal things in their proper place anyway. brute cooks his own meals, and is a good cook. he plans his own menus and does the shopping and preparing and serving them pleasantly, and he enjoys doing the dishes.

so apparently, brute has no need for a wife.
I read this and thought: brute sounds impossibly perfect! Then I was gathering up the wet towels left from washing/drying our mud-wallowing dog, and DH said, "They only need to go into the dryer. [Dog] was clean when when we dried him." Now, before pronouncing brute perfect, I need to know his stand on whether towels ever actually get dirty. :lol:

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by BRUTE » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:39 pm

halfmoon wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:26 pm
Now, before pronouncing brute perfect, I need to know his stand on whether towels ever actually get dirty. :lol:
brute is firmly convinced towels eventually get dirty

James_0011
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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by James_0011 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:51 pm

If you live in a small studio, apartment, or a room as a single dude it doesn't take "impossibly perfect" to clean up once and awhile...

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by ducknalddon » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:13 am

BRUTE wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:17 pm
when the bar is as low as "ability to cook AND clean up once in a while"..
Yet some people seem to struggle with even that, it reminds me of that Woody Allen quote "Showing up is 80 percent of life."

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:16 am

BRUTE needs a wife like a fish needs a bicycle. Granted.

However, still leaves open questions regarding whether BRUTE might "want" or "derive benefit" from a wife.

Let's commence the analysis with some totally retro premises:

1) The cost of BRUTE's "wife" will be that BRUTE has to "keep" (provide all necessary financial support) her at his current lifestyle level with only minor allotment for differing preferences/requirements.

2) The job description of "wife/helpmate" of BRUTE will require approximately 40 hours/week activity devoted to the furthering, improvement, increase of BRUTE's well-being (heath, wealth, pleasure...) First attention will be given to direct instructions from BRUTE with time remaining given to creative attempts to care for BRUTE better than he knows how to care for himself.

3) For the purposes of this puzzle, BRUTE and wife_of-BRUTE will be prohibited from any activity choice that could be construed as "sending her out to work for other in exchange for money." IOW, no activity that would generate a w2 or a 1099 issued by any individual or corporation besides BRUTE.

I am too lazy to flip through the forum in search of any exact information BRUTE may have offered, so my solution to puzzle may fail if examined down to the minute detail.

INITIAL ESTIMATE OF COST BEFORE ADJUSTMENTS:

1) Shelter: Small offering made to current landlord due to additional wear/tear premises and/or utility use. The wife_of_BRUTE will sleep and shower with him and store all of her personal belongings in 1 dresser drawer/4 hangers/2 bags/packs, so this will just be a token gesture- Maybe $50/month.

2) Food: This may be a bit of an expense prior to adjustment given BRUTE's adherence to paleo. Maybe $120/month or 2/3s of what BRUTE currently spends on food for himself.

3) Clothing/Personal Care: Depends a bit on whether BRUTE truly believes that wife_of_BRUTE looks cute wearing his cast-off overalls or he would prefer to throw down $10 for a couple dresses at the Goodwill. She will need some girl stuff, so let's call it- $20/month

4) Health: Hard to estimate given irrational market these-a-days. $50/month?

5) Communication/Technology/Entertainment/Treats: BRUTE will likely find it expedient to provide her with some sort of phone, so that he can offer updated instructions and/or check on her whereabouts/activities throughout the day. Maybe she will occasionally lose a book or a CD borrowed from the library or wish admittance to a museum.-$25/month

6) Misc.- $20/month

7) To keep puzzle in alignment with original article- $10,000 in debt BRUTE must pay off in full in order to release her from former bond. -$40/month.

TOTAL- $325/month or $3900/year.


THEREFORE, in order for BRUTE to derive benefit from the acquisition of a "wife", the value received from the fulfillment of the terms of Premise 2 must be greater than $3900/year. The clear reason why the concept of "dominance" is related to the solution-set of this puzzle is inherent in the "first attention given to instructions" clause, and also the perhaps not so obvious fact that in order to best derive benefit from acquisition of "wife", BRUTE will likely have to expand his own boundary of dominance (ownership/authority/responsibility) in the broader field.

I need to go make another pot of coffee, so I will leave aside the trivial completion of any of the multitudes of possible solutions to the BENEFITS half of this puzzle.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by jacob » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:26 am

I've found there to be quite a range when it comes to home services---surprise surprise---especially after moving into a house. It seems that several "tasks" or "chores" have been invented simply to keep residents busy with meaningless tasks. Lawns and their eventual mowing comes to mind. Cleaning 1000sqft takes 5 times longer than cleaning 200sqft. Cleaning an additional toilet takes twice as long as cleaning a single toilet. Other things have been subject to additional complications to make things take three times longer, like handwash- or dry-clean-only, or ironing.

On the issue of food, there's a big difference between planning out a new meal every single day compared to getting into a routine. Now you're looking at an hour instead of half an hour (less if you're willing to eat the same thing two or more days in a row). Doing two or three courses is another way to spend a few hours in the kitchen every single day. Then there are personal habits. Certainly some people don't think twice about grabbing a clean spoon every time they need one and so they end up using five instead of one... which takes five times longer to clean. The more modern appliances that are involved, the greater the resulting cleanup. Observe different people's habits. There are huge differences in the amount of individual "waste" (dirty dishes, boards, utensils, etc.) generated in the process of cooking a single meal.

Keeping the house tidy is easy if everybody puts everything back in its place if they're done using it. Vacuuming even large areas (I used to clean institutions as a teen) is fast if people keep their shit off the floor and don't use edges and corners as additional storage area. Otherwise it takes forever. If one feels there's not enough to do, get 10-20 houseplants. And a pet. Then you'll also be dealing with regular watering, walking, and cleaning up fur, puke, dirt, and water.

One can spend anytime between 10 minutes a day on food and maintenance and practically all day every day.

Parkinson's law applies just as accurately to housework as it does to office work. All this could be done in less than a couple of hours ... but it can also be expanded to an all day effort.

In the past, people who could afford big houses with big complications could also afford labor, because it was cheap. Now, labor is expensive, but stuff is cheap, so people buy big houses with lots of stuff in them and work much more on them because they can't afford a maid and a gardener.

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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:13 am

@jacob:

I have to agree, especially given most grave offense of false economy ever on my part being the purchase of very large, very old house which was the least expensive/sq.ft. available in the tri-county area.

However, what you are considering is the expansion of the domain of home consumption, rather than the expansion of the domain of home production, or the improvement of the quality of home consumption within set domain. Since I have performed various experiments on minimalism and/or just-doing-the-work-in-front-of-me, I have noted that even if you rid yourself of all stuff, you could still spend every waking hour engaged in activities involving the maintenance of just the very narrow domain of your physical body. For instance, I could spend 30 minutes every day doing facial exercises and applying creams intended to forestall wrinkles, 8 minutes taking my blood pressure and recording results in spreadsheet, 2 hours at the hot yoga studio, 20 minutes researching new hairstyles on the internet, half-hour reading research report on heart diseases, etc. etc. etc. The amount of work you intend to do will always have to be spread over some domain. Part of the problem with being a lady-who-lunches style "kept" woman would be that it would be soooooooo boring. After a month of that, I would be positively Jones-ing to scrape some paint off an old kitchen chair or tutor a kid in algebra or plant some pumpkins.

Obviously, what I am hinting at in above post is that the means by which one could best benefit by acquisition of "wife" would be to recreate economic situation in which this role was valuable by increasing scope of home production NOT home consumption. I employed my own children and a couple of their friends when they were teenagers, so there is an ongoing joke between us that if they fail at their current pursuits, they can always come back and work for me, for food and lodging, and I will offer up some very tantalizing specifics such as "I will buy all the wool sweaters available on bag day at the Jewish Rummage Sale. Then you can unknit all of them back into balls of yarn which I will sell on Etsy, and I will set up a cot in the living room and feed you jelly toasties and tea. "
Last edited by 7Wannabe5 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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