Trump - Clown Genius

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Jake9870
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Jake9870 »

If one holds no firm moral beliefs and only bids to the will of the people that is the perfect politician, no?

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

No. The masses are asses and often want leaders to take actions that are often illegal in a "nation of laws" that protects individual rights (see Federalist Papers #s 10, 51), as the ancient will of crowds is to select arbitrary scapegoats and punish them. A bad politician relies upon and exploits the scapegoating mechanism for his own self-aggrandizement A good politician balances leadership, wisdom and the so-called "will of the people."

Trump believes in himself and in publicity to make himself "look good", particularly involving television. But he doesn't want to work too hard, either.

He is exactly what his history says he would be. Leopards don't change their spots, especially at age 70. Expect more missile strikes, ship and troop movements after he checks his poll numbers.

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

it seems Dragline's "good" vs "bad" judgement is a personal preference. it definitely does not seem to correlate with "successful" and "unsuccessful" politicians in the sense of evolutionary fitness.

in fact, brute would suggest that the current system actively screens for and rewards the type of politician described by Jake9870

black_son_of_gray
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by black_son_of_gray »

BRUTE wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:36 am
it definitely does not seem to correlate with "successful" and "unsuccessful" politicians in the sense of evolutionary fitness.
I think you're stretching a little too far. Evolution works on populations, not individuals, and over relatively long time scales. Also, "success" here is entirely dependent on time frame. Are extant horses an evolutionary success, because they are still around today, or a failure because they are the last branch remaining on a tree that is otherwise extinct? (Or are you referring to the evolving preferences of voters?)

An individual politician may be easily able to assume a powerful position, so that may be construed as "success" on a smaller scale (for that politician, at that time), but on a longer time scale and broader level that may be a "failure" for society/governance (e.g. if someone wholly incapable of wielding that power appropriately actually gets it, acting like a bull in a china shop) . Perhaps @BRUTE and @dragline just have different scales of observation.

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

You are correct -- good/bad is an opinion. There are no "objective measures" for politicians that are not subjective in-and-of themselves by definition.

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

brute agrees with humans.

interesting that Dragline seems to judge a politician's goodness by the degree in which they will insulate effective power from the will of the unwashed masses. somewhat elitist (no judgement).

where brute differs is, what should a politician do instead? if not the will of the unwashed masses, what will will be enacted?

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

You'll find your answers in the writings/speeches of Edmund Burke and the Federalist Papers I mentioned. This is why the U.S. does not have a democracy, but a representative government.

"In 1774, Burke's Speech to the Electors at Bristol at the Conclusion of the Poll was noted for its defence of the principles of representative government against the notion that elected officials should merely be delegates:

... it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.[63]

Political scientist Hanna Pitkin points out that Burke linked the interest of the district with the proper behaviour of its elected official, explaining, "Burke conceives of broad, relatively fixed interest, few in number and clearly defined, of which any group or locality has just one. These interests are largely economic or associated with particular localities whose livelihood they characterize, in his over-all prosperity they involve."[64]

Burke was a leading sceptic with respect to democracy. While admitting that theoretically, in some cases it might be desirable, he insisted a democratic government in Britain in his day would not only be inept, but also oppressive. He opposed democracy for three basic reasons. First, government required a degree of intelligence and breadth of knowledge of the sort that occurred rarely among the common people. Second, he thought that if they had the vote, common people had dangerous and angry passions that could be aroused easily by demagogues; he feared that the authoritarian impulses that could be empowered by these passions would undermine cherished traditions and established religion, leading to violence and confiscation of property. Third, Burke warned that democracy would create a tyranny over unpopular minorities, who needed the protection of the upper classes."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke

bryan
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan »

With the technology we have today, it seems possible to try out more direct democracies at the state/county/city/neighbourhood level.. and even do away with such rigid borders anyway and calculate the replacement concept of "borders" in an automated way via the data (though I'm sure some of this would lend itself to politics as usual).

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

Dragline wrote:First, government required a degree of intelligence and breadth of knowledge of the sort that occurred rarely among the common people. Second, he thought that if they had the vote, common people had dangerous and angry passions that could be aroused easily by demagogues; he feared that the authoritarian impulses that could be empowered by these passions would undermine cherished traditions and established religion, leading to violence and confiscation of property. Third, Burke warned that democracy would create a tyranny over unpopular minorities, who needed the protection of the upper classes."
check, check, and check. but what will or agenda should the elite enforce? their own? some enlightened greater good? which one?

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

The answer to your question is in the speech above. They (yes, its a brand newly accepted singular pronoun as of a few weeks ago) ought to act in the best interests of their constituents overall, which may or may not be what the constituents are clamoring for at the moment. And then be able to explain their decisions.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

Bikeshedding. Or, if you prefer, rearranging deck chairs on the presidency.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

A court ordered FISA warrant was issued. That requires probably cause. In this case, probably cause that Page was "acting as an agent of a foreign power".

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/18/politics/ ... index.html

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

You mean "probable cause." It's not a particularly high legal hurdle, but it is a hurdle.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

Oh man, that made me laugh out loud. Probably probable. I was still asleep.

Yes, a judge looked at the evidence and decided that a reasonable person would conclude that the president's foreign policy advisor was working as a foreign agent. We don't have the evidence itself, but that fact says a lot.

Tyler9000
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Tyler9000 »

Ego wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:13 pm
We don't have the evidence itself, but that fact says a lot.
Actually, we do. It's the famous "Trump dossier" released by Buzzfeed a few months ago. The one of "golden showers" fame containing a few easily falsifiable claims. It was written by a former British Intelligence agent hired by Democrat opposition research firm Fusion GPS to dig up dirt on Trump during the election. Not exactly a politically neutral piece of intelligence.

The way people react to news regarding Trump truly is a Rorschach test.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

Tyler9000 wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:41 pm
Ego wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:13 pm
We don't have the evidence itself, but that fact says a lot.
The way people react to news regarding Trump truly is a Rorschach test.
Rorschach indeed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 607cc3417b

The government’s application for the surveillance order targeting Page included a lengthy declaration that laid out investigators’ basis for believing that Page was an agent of the Russian government and knowingly engaged in clandestine intelligence activities on behalf of Moscow, officials said.

Among other things, the application cited contacts that he had with a Russian intelligence operative in New York City in 2013, officials said. Those contacts had earlier surfaced in a federal espionage case brought by the Justice Department against the intelligence operative and two other Russian agents. In addition, the application said Page had other contacts with Russian operatives that have not been publicly disclosed, officials said.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

The worst part of Comey's disclosure was that it turns out the FBI was investigating both presidential candidates in the months leading up to the election.

We deserve everything we get if we let our political parties serve up such flawed candidates.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

Agreed. Though, by no means are they equally flawed.

Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack »

I can't believe anyone is still talking about this.

Russian influence in American politics is nothing new. Look at the changes in our prints' portrayal of Hitler when Stalin and he were carving up Eastern Europe, vs the portrayal after Germany attacked Russia.

Do you think the radicals of the 60-70s were spontaneous?

Foreign intervention in our political process started before we had a political process.

The Democrats put forth a candidate who commanded too high a price, that's all. I mean, I understand being butthurt because the Russians switched parties, but this endless whining about it seems... disingenuous.

All you need is a standard presidential candidate, (one without the Clinton foundation and 24 years of power politics) and his/her prices will be reasonable.

I'm sure you are tired of hearing this, but Bernie would have been an investment worth buying. But choosing between a Clinton at record highs, and Trump, at a bargain; I can understand speculation on Trump.

Bring in a new CEO for the DNC. Refocus on reducing customer churn. Better customer service. Generating value. Regaining market share. Higher returns will attract more foreign investment.

Call your congressman. Let him know your expectations: Always Be Closing.

I have faith that if Democrats roll up their sleeves, and really focus, they can sell out America just as well as Republicans.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

Personally, I just keep these threads going to annoy you. :)

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