System Boundaries and Inheritance

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7Wannabe5
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Riggerjack wrote:I couldn't disagree more. While I am certain The Moneyless Man would agree with your assessment, in my experience, the more eagerly someone espouses these ideas, the more they expect favor trading to come out in their favor.
Well, my ideal politico-economico philosophy/practice, is something like What-if-J.S.MIlls-lived-on-Sesame-Street?, so I am actually simultaneously in agreement with you, and Harry Browne, and the Moneyless Man. How possible???!!!

Here's my take. Liberal or libertarian philosophy or politics has to do with how adults interact with other adults. In extreme libertarian context, as in "Ragged Dick" or "Mrs. Wiggs of the Cabbage Patch" or any realm absent compulsory education and child labor law, perhaps adulthood would be granted to any individual who had achieved bare competence to offer self for service/sale on the market. Still, there would be a phase of infancy in which the brute forces of the market would esteem any human as not yet of value (except in manner once suggested by Mr. Swift.)

If I was creating a model of a system that was only concerned with contracts between free human adults, I would default to liberal/libertarian. Since I am creating a model of a system that also includes "stuff and bother" like rainfall, oxygen, rare writings, and theoretical grand-babies, that are not wholly comprised of or enclosed by contracts between free human adults, I must also acknowledge the need for some flow of functions commonly known as "caring" and "sharing." IOW, there is a difference between that which is weak and that which is vulnerable, and entrusting that which is vulnerable to pure libertarian practice would be like hiring a punk teenager who wants to spend her summer hitchhiking around Asia to be your nanny. The drive towards freedom or liberty is fueled by "juvenile masculine" energy. That's why some early critics wrote off Harry Browne as a "playboy" going through a mid-life crisis.

I have observed that most reasonably competent people tend towards either being balanced juvenile-masculine/adult-feminine or juvenile-feminine/adult-masculine in their energies. The most self-aware, highly functioning people are able to fluidly engage in all 4 quadrants. So, my 5 cents Lucy-in-her-lemonade/psychotherapy stand diagnosis of your complete rejection of the Moneyless Man philosophy would be that you, Riggerjack, like many men in our culture, are not in touch with your inner juvenile feminine energy. So, I want you to perform a brief exercise this afternoon which involves lying down in the grass, shirtless and pretending like you are a rabbit with your belly exposed and there are wolves hiding in the trees around you, then relax, relax, relax...

BTW: Bravo on your cemetery preserve plan! Clever and bold at once and a fine piece of stewardship.

Riggerjack
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by Riggerjack »

So, my 5 cents Lucy-in-her-lemonade/psychotherapy stand diagnosis of your complete rejection of the Moneyless Man philosophy would be that you, Riggerjack, like many men in our culture, are not in touch with your inner juvenile feminine energy. So, I want you to perform a brief exercise this afternoon which involves lying down in the grass, shirtless and pretending like you are a rabbit with your belly exposed and there are wolves hiding in the trees around you, then relax, relax, relax...
Mind... Blown.

Why would anyone relax in that situation?!?

First, construct snares for wolves, while laying out a running path to effectively ensnare said wolves. Then, relax, as bait, as the next step in the wolf purge process. While relaxing, plan for air defense capabilities, because Hawks and eagles.

Does that count?

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Ego
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by Ego »

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:32 pm
Mind... Blown.
If you want my opinion, the saran wrap thing would be more of an impactful, cathartic experience for you.

7Wannabe5
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

My bad. Conjure Wolves Posture is a moderately advanced spell...uh, I mean exercise...let's try something a bit more basic first. It can sometimes be difficult for men who have spent many years locked in rigid vigilance to relax in such a manner. Not unlike the plight of ex-football players attempting certain poses in yoga.

Close your eyes and picture a blackboard with a diagram of the nitrogen cycle written upon it in chalk. Keep your inner focus on this image while drinking a large mug or tankard of mead or similar beverage. When you feel the urge to urinate, simultaneously release, with a psychic strength like throwing a baseball, the image from your mind's eye and the nitrogen from your body, and firmly grasp the rough bark of a large tree with your free open palm.

@Ego: I appreciate your attempt to help, but that is a very, very advanced exercise, and I do not believe that there are many human beings capable of safely partnering Riggerjack in the execution.

BRUTE
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by BRUTE »

what literally the whole thing

Riggerjack
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by Riggerjack »

If you want my opinion, the saran wrap thing would be more of an impactful, cathartic experience for you.


Eh. Sounds like crowd surfing, though I didn't wear syran wrap. That seems like it would be uncomfortable.

Seriously, didn't you guys work this vulnerability fetish out in your 20's? I mean, I'm in my 40's now. I know what works, and what doesn't, and I've purged what doesn't.

Living in the moment was never really an issue for me. If it was, the military would have resolved that issue.

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C40
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by C40 »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:47 pm

Close your eyes and picture a blackboard with a diagram of the nitrogen cycle written upon it in chalk. Keep your inner focus on this image while drinking a large mug or tankard of mead or similar beverage. When you feel the urge to urinate, simultaneously release, with a psychic strength like throwing a baseball, the image from your mind's eye and the nitrogen from your body, and firmly grasp the rough bark of a large tree with your free open palm.
That last part about grabbing bark totally reminds me of these rituals I once read in a book that an old guy had given a girlfriend. It was some kind of spiritual / yoga? / sex book. It had this so called Stag ritual. I can't remember the exact details but I think it may have involved oiling yourself up and standing naked outside at night? It definitely did include ejaculating onto a candle. I don't recall any rituals about getting in touch with your inner juvenile feminine parts. Maybe puppies would help? Maybe it requires finding a woman with a strap on? [Edit - ok, just saw Rigger's post above this. Scratch the last one]

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fiby41
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by fiby41 »

jennypenny wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:01 am
So is it more accurate to say that we're not striving for immortality personally, but that through our generosity and focus we're trying to assure that the things that are important to us -- whether people, ideas, or institutions -- live on after we're gone?
An institution is the elongated shadow of an individual.
~Emerson

7Wannabe5
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Well, I am obviously being more than a bit silly or smart-alec with the above, but considering reality from a perspective of "being" vs. "doing" is not just a trivial phase an individual might go through in late adolescence. It has been my recent observation that it "pops out" in every memoir of every otherwise intelligent, rational tending individual, when they attempt very difficult exercises along the lines of "spend/make no money whatsoever" or "eat only food grown/raised within 10 miles of my home" or "hike the Appalachian Trail with only a penknife" or "attempt to relax in your feminine energy by offering no instruction whatsoever in relationship to your partner" etc. etc. etc. AND, it also "pops in " to the abstract if you are a rabid INTP attempting to construct a lifestyle systems diagram which encompasses every possible stock and flow. This is due to the inherent difference between qualities and quantities. Pretty much where we all live now most of the time in our culture might be summed up in a comic strip showing Eve handing Adam an apple which he then subjects to spectro-market-price-nutrient-analysis-sticker-shrink-wrap machine, and then when he is asked to describe the qualities of the apple in his hand, he recites from the label.

If you refuse to earn or spend any money at all, you are forced to directly relate to the people, resources and nature directly around you in the moment or near future. If you limit yourself to only eating food grown or raised within 10 miles of you, you have to rely on more than just money to feed you, and you quickly come to literally gut-level comprehension of sustainable human population density in your locale. Then all sorts of should-have-been-re-inventing-the-wheel-obvious things "pop-in" to your systems diagram because you realize, for instance, that symphonies are dependent on grain-crops. The grass is the enemy of the trees, but the friend of Beethoven.

It is not the nature of the INTP to wish to reign goddess-or-emperor-or bureaucrat-like over others, but it is the nature of the INTP to wish to achieve some sort of ideal level of realism in the design of her own little dollhouse or digital lifestyle systems diagram. This might tend towards rendering her a bit, for lack of a better word, autistic, or maybe something more like handicap-level-absent-minded. So, then, for instance, it takes a few experimental outings before she comprehends the pattern of what is likely to happen if she types something like "My waist-to-hip ratio is .72, so it is likely that I am considered reasonably attractive by the average human male" into her internet dating profile which is then linked to a system that is also inhabited by intelligent adult EJ males. What is likely to happen in this instance might be best described by a picture of a wolf, who is occasionally looking at his gold watch, the market numbers, or checking the score of the game , and trying not to laugh while discussing the science of human sexual attraction over dinner with a happy-gesticulating, bunny-monkey-owl-deer wearing dollar-store reading glasses (of course, 6-18 months later, the wolf may have cause to regret focusing too much on the bunny and not enough on the owl-monkey combo when evaluating his chances.)

BRUTE
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by BRUTE »

brute recommends that 7Wannabe5 get in touch with her male juvenile self using the following steps:
1)waking up with a raging hard on
2)masturbating furiously (it's important this be done furiously. if a human were to hear 7Wannabe5 from the room over, it should sound like she's wrestling a pig or deadlifting 500lbs)
3)showering in 30 seconds
4)feeling completely clean
5)getting onto a motorcycle with a power-to-weight-ratio of at least 1 (kg, not lbs), i.e. roughly 200bhp, and riding until a full gas tank is empty, hearing the dice roll every time 7Wannabe5 passes a car with a delta of >30mph or takes a tricky blind turn
6)eating 2lbs of meat for lunch. no sides. sides are for vegetarians.
7)back home, showering for another 30 seconds, thinking it might be overkill
8)pee while standing up and browsing tinder on cellphone
9)actually deadlifting 500lbs (alternatively, wrestling a pig is fine, if accessible)
10)when passing any humans on the street or in the mall, calculating odds of winning a fight against them

IlliniDave
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by IlliniDave »

Yikes, this one seems to have gone off the rails ...

7Wannabe5
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@BRUTE: How provocative. I like it!

Two notes. The first would be that my ridiculously simplified weak-Jungian model includes 4 quadrants defined by Juvenile/Adult, Masculine/Feminine, and some of the exercises you listed would appear to me to be more in alignment with adult masculine rather than juvenile masculine energy since Power would be associated with the Adult Masculine Quadrant whereas Energy/Spark/Initiative would be more associated with the Juvenile Masculine Quadrant.

Second note (which will likely thrust me once more into the realm of TMI, but today I do not care because my face is half melted, and I am therefore just in old crone scratching out her memoirs mode.) My mother suffers from bi-polar disease. I suffer from cyclothymia with more manic than depressive cycling, and one of my most pronounced symptoms is hyper-sexuality. Therefore, although there is more than a bit of not-directly-comparable apples-to-oranges, it is the case that my sex drive is higher than that of many or most men, so I do (or did-sigh) possess a lot of juvenile-masculine energy for a female. Or to put the matter in even more blunt terms, it has been my lifelong experience that it is more likely that I will be the partner who will wake up with a "raging hard-on." even though my sexuality, like that of most other females, is not as visually-linked, rigidly channeled, or as likely to cause me to behave in an assertive manner as that of my male peers. IOW, spark and powder a plenty, but no sight, barrel or bullet.

So:

1) check
2) too easy for me. never have to breath hard to accomplish. out of condition now, but previously trained to release on command.
3) definitely not my preference, but have done while camping etc.
4) ?
5) never, but I have almost fallen asleep while riding on such a vehicle, resting against some wide leather-coated back.
6) have attempted, start having vivid dreams about cookies around Day 21
7) ?
8) have considered buying device that would make this possible because it would come in handy hiking/camping. visual cortex not strongly directly linked to sexuality and passive photographs will not often serve as triggering mechanism. watching video of guy with decent guns playing guitar might be closest approximation since it would at least show active musculature and add the aural component. I used to do this sometimes, but male musicians are now like some terrible party drink I have vomited up too often.
9) extremely unlikely, vast room for improvement. I do occasionally get the urge to attempt to do something like literally (as opposed to psychologically) flip a guy who might be around 6'3" and 220 lbs. of pretty solid muscle. What actually happens when I make such an attempt is something like the sound of a tree falling in a forest where nobody can hear it.
10) Never even vaguely considered. I am not even super-catty competitive with other females due to learning early on to co-operate or divide and conquer with sisters. IOW, I sometimes do that instant ranking of my attractiveness vs. other females in the room thing, but then I immediately imagine that we are all competing in different categories/ranks. I generally signal friendly/submissive except when I am paid to teach young hooligans. This one might be amusing/enlightening to attempt, but just the thought of living like that forever exhausts me. Zero-percent interest in taking on that role/responsibility.

George the original one
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by George the original one »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:02 am
I suffer from cyclothymia with more manic than depressive cycling, and one of my most pronounced symptoms is hyper-sexuality.
I've known a couple women like that <relishes memories>.

7Wannabe5
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@GTOO: Yeah, it used to be fun to be me too.

enigmaT120
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by enigmaT120 »

George the original one wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:51 am
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:02 am
I suffer from cyclothymia with more manic than depressive cycling, and one of my most pronounced symptoms is hyper-sexuality.
I've known a couple women like that <relishes memories>.
I haven't, dammit.

7Wannabe5
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

My children gave me money today. Granted, this was to pay me back for paying the joint phone bill for a number of years, but...I tried to wave it away, and they insisted, and my DS28 acted insulted and reminded me about his recent promotion. I am losing my frame of reference. No more "babies", and more than one affluent old man who wants to bundle me up and take me to dinner. Like I'm walking up the stairs, but the world is on the escalator.

BRUTE
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by BRUTE »

and this is bad because..

Dragline
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by Dragline »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:44 pm
My children gave me money today. Granted, this was to pay me back for paying the joint phone bill for a number of years, but...I tried to wave it away, and they insisted, and my DS28 acted insulted and reminded me about his recent promotion. I am losing my frame of reference. No more "babies", and more than one affluent old man who wants to bundle me up and take me to dinner. Like I'm walking up the stairs, but the world is on the escalator.
Well, I guess they love you. Learn to accept it in whatever form it takes. Perhaps they have jolted you back out of your transactional mindset that you seem to apply to those closest to you.

7Wannabe5
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Dragline said: Perhaps they have jolted you back out of your transactional mindset that you seem to apply to those closest to you.
No, it's not that. I am still interested in economics, and I know I am lovable in spite of my fascination with the dismal ;) I think it is because I took on some level of maternal care for my youngest sister at an early age, because after she was born my mother went completely out-to-lunch, so not having any level of practical responsibility for anybody younger than me is something I have never experienced. IOW, it's not some cold to warm transform (which you never would have suggested if you had ever met me IRL), more like a big to little transform. I have almost always framed my projects with my 3 younger sisters or my 2 children in my considerations or on my team, with my father as my primary backer until he died in 2001. My ex-husband, never anybody's concept of a rock, went completely AWOL(quit his job, had a nervous breakdown for which he was hospitalized, and disappeared for a number of months) after we separated in 2007, so then it was all on me.

My son also asked about whether I had made arrangements with my sisters to rent some lakeside cottages my father always rented in the summer, implying that he would be willing and able to throw into the pot this year. One thing most men always want from women, whether it is their mother, their wife, their sisters or their daughters, is for them to recreate enjoyable scenes from their childhood (while they watch football.) Maybe I am not going to be able to do a good job of explaining, but part of the reason why it might seem like I engage in cold analysis in relationship to the men I date is because they are not my family, and they will never be my family, because I will never have any children with them. They are satellite characters, for entertainment or secondary contributory purposes only. I am lacking the gene that would allow me to fully engage in sterile pair-bond, although I do sometimes fall infatuated or think of my boyfriends as being like poor old gray-muzzled dogs with puppy-dog eyes. IOW, I am quite sentimental, and I am quite sexual, but I am not very romantic, even though it is my observation that I almost always have a husband, lover, or boyfriend.

Anyways, the part of this which is relevant to this thread and forum is that I have always had a purpose for my frugality that was not just future me, and it is difficult for me to think of myself like that.

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fiby41
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Re: System Boundaries and Inheritance

Post by fiby41 »

This extract will explain :
1 boundary between the Self and everything else
2 The attachment we feel towards people, possessions and objects
3 What part of what we own can be inherited by others
4 boundary between progenitor and progeny as define by what can be retained/inherited from the progenitor by the progeny and what cannot.

41 “Maitreyi,” Yajnavalkya said to his wife one day, “the
time has come for me to go forth from the worldly life.
Come, my dear, let me divide my property between
you and Katyayani.”
MAITREYI
4 2 My lord, if I could get all the wealth in the world,
would it help me to go beyond death?
YAJNAVALKYA
Not at all. You would live and die like any other rich
person. No one can buy immortality with money.
MAITREYI
4 3 O f what use then are money and material
possessions to me? Please tell me, my lord, of the way
that leads to immortality.

YAJNAVALKYA
44 You have always been dear to me, Maitreyi, and I
love you even more now that you have asked me about
immortality. Sit here by my side and reflect deeply on
what I say.

4 5 A wife loves her husband not for his own sake, dear,
but because the Self lives in him.
A husband loves his wife not for her own sake, dear,
but because the Self lives in her.
Children are loved not for their own sake, but because
the Self lives in them.
Wealth is loved not for its own sake, but because the
Self lives in it.
Brahmins are loved not for their own sake, but
because the Self lives in them.
Kshatriyas are loved not for their own sake, but
because the Self lives in them.
The universe is loved not for its own sake, but because
the Self lives in it.
The gods are loved not for their own sake, but because
the Self lives in them.
Creatures are loved not for their own sake, but because
the Self lives in them.
Everything is loved not for its own sake, but because
the Self lives in it.

This Self has to be realized. Hear about this Self and
meditate upon him, Maitreyi. When you hear about
the Self, meditate upon the Self, and finally realize the
Self, you come to understand everything in life.

4 6 For brahmins confuse those who regard them as
separate from the Self. Kshatriyas confuse those who
regard them as separate from the Self. The universe
confuses those who regard it as separate from the Self.
Gods and creatures confuse those who regard them as
separate from the Self. Everything confuses those who
regard things as separate from the Self.
Brahmins, kshatriyas, creatures, the universe, the
gods, everything: these are the Self.

4 7 No one can understand the sounds of a drum
without understanding both drum and drummer;
4 8 nor the sounds of a conch without understanding
both the conch and its blower;
49 nor the sounds of a vina without understanding both vina and musician.

4-10 As clouds of smoke arise from a fire laid with damp
fuel, even so from the Supreme have issued forth all the
Vedas, history, arts, sciences, poetry, aphorisms, and
commentaries. All these are the breath of the Supreme.

411 As there can be no water without the sea,
no touch without the skin,
no smell without the nose,
no taste without the tongue,
no form without the eye,
no sound without the ear,
no thought without the mind,
no wisdom without the heart,
no work without hands,
no walking without feet,
no scriptures without the word,
so there can be nothing without the Self.

412 As a lump of salt thrown in water dissolves and
cannot be taken out again, though wherever we taste
the water it is salty, even so, beloved, the separate self
dissolves in the sea of pure consciousness, infinite and
immortal.
Separateness arises from identifying the
Self with the body, which is made up of the elements;
when this physical identification dissolves, there can
be no more separate self. This is what I want to tell
you, beloved.

from chapter 2 (The Path to Immortality) of The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (Eknath Easwaran's translation.)

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