Flaws in libertarianism

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Riggerjack
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack »

for what it's worth, brute has heard many humans in the keto community say that their gout got much better or went away after cutting out carbs. something with fructose and chronic insulin and inflammation of the joints. maybe worth a try for the old timers here.
I'm still taking allopurinol, daily. But I found cutting my overall protien intake has helped. Not targeting purines specifically, but just reduced meat intake. My theory is that uric acid is building up, because the kidneys aren't filtering it out. Looking at diets for kidney problems means cutting protien intake. So, that's what I did. But then my meat consumption was higher than American average.

Riggerjack
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack »

As I suspected, RJ Rummel is the source of your figures. His numbers are shaky to say the least. More on that, and an attempt at comparing capitalism to communism using a similar methodology here: http://www.petersaysstuff.com/2014/05/a ... eath-toll/

(I do see you replied before me to note he may not be the most reliable source.)
I read through the second link, read the same line in the first, (When one progressive blogger plagiarizes another, is that research?) clicked the link to the first source it goes to here: https://books.google.si/books?id=kewLQw ... 22&f=false as a back up of his criticism of someone else' research. A study of the Gulag, seems like an excellent, source, I would expect their number to be close to the truth, or at least justifiable. It came up with 18M in the Stalin years. So, when he says this:
We can ignore the fact his "most probable estimate" of deaths the responsibility of the Soviet Union presupposes 40 million deaths in the gulag, which happens to be twice the number of people who passed through the camps.
It makes me think nobody has ever checked his work, and just he assumes his pontification is truth. The relevant line from Rummel (who did research):
Camp/Transit 1917 to 1987 Low:15919000 Mid: 39464 High: 82280500

18M in 25 years (Stalin's reign) is 780k/per year, at a general high point. Call it half that, on average. that's an additional 27M or 45M total, going off my half azzed guess. But 45M going thru doesn't equal 40M dead. So a quick look at wikipedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
Brief history[edit]
About 14 million people were imprisoned in the Gulag labor camps from 1929 to 1953 (the estimates for the period 1918–1929 are even more difficult to calculate). A further 6–7 million were deported and exiled to remote areas of the USSR, and 4–5 million passed through labor colonies, plus 3.5 million who were already in, or who had been sent to, labor settlements
So your guy's estimate is based on 25 years out of 70, in 1 system out of four. No wonder his estimate is low. I found this with a quick google search. I didn't do research. But then neither did your bloggers.
Last edited by Riggerjack on Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

BRUTE
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by BRUTE »

Riggerjack wrote:18M in 25 years (Stalin's reign) is 780/per year
brute doesn't follow this math

7Wannabe5
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I tend towards more than a bit of "rebel without a clue" functioning myself, but it seems to me that the essential flaw with Libertarianism is due to being "born from the head of Zeus" -like. For simple instance, it does not seem to be inclusive of any humans who are 3 years old and inclined towards behavior such as running into traffic to retrieve a ball. The philosophy follows the same rule-of-thumb followed by writers of bodice-ripping-romance-novels which is "First kill the parents." The Libertarian "individual" seemingly pops into existence as fully-formed and informed human at late adolescent dispersal phase of life, like some alien transported to earth in an egg-ship from other unknown dimension of being.

Human beings are large mammalian, omnivorous, resource-hungry out-breeders with huge brains. They require a good deal of energy for survival and a good deal more for reproduction. The process of being weaned from breast-milk and/or being served other-funded food in the cafeteria of the dorm of your university, requires the acquisition of skills towards providing for your own energy needs. Thus, territoriality and property concepts which may be expressed as "MY COOKIE!!!" (consequent with bashing peer over head with educational toy cast from petroleum derived polymer) or something more like
"blah, blah, blah..tort actions dealing with direct interferences with persons, their chattels, and their land stem from the writs of trespass vi et armis, de bonis asportatis, and quare clausum fregit. Although these now commonly are referred to as the intentional torts, in Canada this reference is inaccurate. The writ of trespass was developed in the thirteenth century in order to assist those who were the victims of direct and forcible interferences. There was no requirement that the interference be intended by the defendant, nor that the conduct otherwise be wrongfully motivated...blah, blah, blah..."

Anyways, it is my current take that there are some levels of resource or territory dominance (dwell and roam)that feel like liberty to most humans. Members of the Chippewa tribes would come together in large bands during the resource lush summer season and break up into small family units during the resource deplete winter. There is currently free camping (if you move every two weeks) and more deer available in the former domain of the Chippewa than there was in 1875. In 1840, land in my neck of the woods went for $80/acre and was considered a great bargain. It is now available for approximately $2400/acre, which isn't all that different given rate of inflation. Seems like there are fewer "individuals" wanting to take on work of wrestling living from the land while fretting about possible violent behavior of members of other "tribes" located in region these-a-days.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Riggerjack: Again, I'm definitely not interested in arguing about specific statistics. Nor am I surprised that you discovered errors and leaps of logic in the blog posts I linked. Mind you, those are not the only folks to have pointed out flaws in RJ Rummel and "Black Book of Communism" stats--but that's not the point. The "death toll" numbers for capitalism don't need to be right to support my argument. Again, my position is that such statistics are mostly rubbish on both sides.

The facts are simply these: Rummel's statistics include the Holodomor famine, a piece of Nazi-era propaganda; on that note, they also conflate Nazism with leftist Socialism/Communism, a claim certainly not everyone would agree with (I do not, and rather recognize it as a familiar political tactic of the American right); and the statistics have been disputed as both politically biased and sensationalized (a man's gotta sell books).

Furthermore, it is clearly ahistorical to claim that "capitalism" hasn't also "killed" unconscionable amounts of people, especially using similar (silly) metrics. Again, you and Rummel are still talking about gulags as if that's a necessary condition of socialism or at all entailed in what anyone means by the word today. By the same reasoning, it would be disingenuous not to consider slavery (waged or otherwise), private prisons, and systemic poverty as "symptoms" of capitalism.

I'm not interested in quibbling over the inaccurate and sensationalized numbers. I'm merely pointing out what they are.

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Jean
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Jean »

@SW
This topic isn't about the history of the europeans totalitarian regimes of the last century.
Even if communism killed no one, I wouldn't enjoy living under such a system.
I'm not a moderator, but I think that the question I asked have been answered, and I predict, that in less than two pages, someone will start to deny some part of the history that are protected by laws.
So I would like this topic to be closed. Because both sides of the argument already showed enough to let anyone make his opinion anyway.

Riggerjack
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack »

Yeah, if I were a socialist, I'd want to separate myself from Nazis too. Oh and the Soviets, Chinese, Koreans, Cambodians... Yeah, which were there good examples, again? You know, those successful, peaceful socialist solutions.

Now Europe has had lots of success with socialist influence, and confederation. But a successful socialist state, which would you like to visit?

Back to Nazis, if I understand the current definition, the economic difference between fascism and socialism is that fascists only nationalized some of the economy (500 key companies in Germany, 3/4 of the economy in Italy.) So I guess that makes fascism kinda like socialism-lite. Plus lots of ideological differences in who we are empowering, vs who we are demonizing. But for practical purposes, it seems like a distinction without a difference.

Looking at the Wikipedia page for fascism shows that in every case, they splintered off of a socialist movement, and we all know how fractious that always goes.

In any case, this is a thread about libertarianism, and however you define it, statist/socialist/fascist, it is all diametrically opposed to libertarianism.

Riggerjack
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack »

To be fair, if America's prison deaths were counted the same way, I'm sure the number would be horrendous. Just because we have such an insanely high prison population. I would like to point out that most of the insane part of that number is because of drug crimes. And again, no drug crimes in libertarianism.

The pattern I see among detractors of libertarianism is that they think the state has their interests at heart. This is a reasonable position. When I was young, and educated by the state, then employed by the state, I thought so as well.

I think America functions fairly well, and we have a lot of leeway to swing either way, toward individual freedom or toward expanded nannyism, without dire consequences. So as much as this argument gets bitter, I think there is much we all can agree on.

I think people are fairly good at knowing what they want from society and government. But also no good at all in mapping how to make that happen. And thus us where isms get thrown into the arguments.

For what it's worth, I was a liberal, back when progressives were called liberals. Then I was a libertarian. Now I think I have found the failings in libertarianism, but still default to freedom and responsibility as my "go to" political opinions. Anything that compromises freedom or responsibility will hagh a high bar to hurdle.

BRUTE
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by BRUTE »

in brute's opinion, most who oppose libertarianism think libertarians are too optimistic - that libertarian would only work with "perfect humans". brute thinks the opposite is true. libertarians are pessimists; they seek a system that would work with the worst of humans.

BRUTE
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by BRUTE »

Riggerjack wrote:Yeah, if I were a socialist, I'd want to separate myself from Nazis too. Oh and the Soviets, Chinese, Koreans, Cambodians... Yeah, which were there good examples, again? You know, those successful, peaceful socialist solutions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania

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Jean
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Jean »

Sometimes I think that the same peoples will get the same outcome, without regard to the system they use.

Riggerjack
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack »

Christiania is a commune. A great example of a commune, both good and bad. Population 850, after 40+ years seems likely to be a record. And it shows great tolerance from the Danes. They went 24 years without paying for utilities, or taxes, and 35 years before they were even willing to provide parking for 10% of their cars! :lol:

Seriously, I like communes, but the ones that don't fail from internal squabbles generally fail because they make such abusive neighbors. I live down the road from one, and Larry and his croud haven't been a problem for me. Though some of his closer nieghbors complain some. And it was nieghbors complaining that shut down the Love-Isreal commune. Too bad, the garlic festival was a lot of fun.

I think communes are fine, because they don't require my cooperation or compliance. And if they fail, they haven't cost me anything. Part of libertarianism is allowing others the freedom to try making their own path, and the freedom to fail, if that's going to happen.

Riggerjack
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack »

Sometimes I think that the same peoples will get the same outcome, without regard to the system they use.
There's a lot to be said for this, but of course, some systems are more forgiving of people choosing their own way than others.

The measurement of governance that matters is how it works for those who disagree.

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fiby41
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by fiby41 »

@Spartan Warrior,

Pretty sure that National Socialism was the de facto official ideology of the Nazi party. In fact it's German name translates to National Socialist German Workers' Party.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by ThisDinosaur »

The measurement of governance that matters is how it works for those who disagree.
Is this a quote from somewhere? If not, you should copyright that, Riggerjack.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

fiby41 wrote:@Spartan Warrior,

Pretty sure that National Socialism was the de facto official ideology of the Nazi party. In fact it's German name translates to National Socialist German Workers' Party.
Yeah, and the Democratic Party calls itself "democratic", too. :roll:

Ignoring the essentially right-wing nature of the Nazis' anti-labor, pro-capitalist, nationalist and racist policies, how about the fact that socialists and communists were considered political enemies by the Nazis and were literally among the first groups sent to concentration camps?

Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question, one I'm not interested in debating here. Like I said, the conflation of the ideologies is simply ahistorical and often agenda-driven. As the OP indicated, his question has been answered, and this thread is not for "totalitarian regimes of Europe" (although let the record show it was the libertarians who brought it up). So I don't want to argue this. If you're interested, here's some further reading on the subject:

http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/NazismSocialism.html
https://www.quora.com/Was-Nazism-or-Nat ... -socialist
Last edited by Spartan_Warrior on Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

subgard
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by subgard »

Socialism and Libertarianism come from the same source.

Start with Original Position Anarchy. Take one step in one direction. Anarcho-Libertarianism. Take a step in the opposite direction. Anarcho-Socialism. The difference between the two has to do with the OPs question of how to determine private property. Both are products of Enlightenment thinking.

Nazism was a rejection of the Enlightenment. A single race of people will make a single strong nation with a single will. This nation-race, because of it's unity will dominate all other inferior nations...
Anyway, you get the idea that this is lightyears away from the petty minutia of exactly who should own what and why. Very appealing if you don't know how the story ends :?

BRUTE
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by BRUTE »

at least the Nazis proved that racism doesn't work ;) silver lining?

Riggerjack
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack »

Ignoring the essentially right-wing nature of the Nazis' anti-labor, pro-capitalist, nationalist and racist policies, how about the fact that socialists and communists were considered political enemies by the Nazis and were literally among the first groups sent to concentration camps?
Imagine, if you will, after a generation of hard times, libertarians seize control of the US government. Inevitably, some party leaders would not get the rewards they "deserve". There would be splinter groups of minarchists, holding true to their ideals, while classical liberals ruled.

Generations later, minarchists can still talk about how completely different and right they are, while condemning the moral failures of classical liberals. This would be just as true as you are describing, and yet just as irrelevant to socialists.

I understand that you find the difference between a nationalistic, left leaning, statist, nation to be completely different from a nationalistic, right leaning, statist nation. Please understand, from my perspective, the difference is in who gets oppressed, rather than whether there will be oppression, so it really is a distinction without a difference.

My issue with Soviets and Nazis is the statism. Not whether the State allows favored individuals to continue to own noncritical industries. They both embraced political violence, militarism, Eugenics, concentration camps, and ethnic cleansing.

The more power gets concentrated, the greater that power is abused. If anyone knows of an exception, please bring it up.

As I explained in this thread:http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com ... 6&start=25 once you meter parking, it is nearly inevitable that you will start jailing people for not parking appropriately. It doesn't take evil intent, merely regulation.

Now, I'm not enough of a libertarian to call out jailing people for minor civic infractions as evil. I understand that there needs to be rules to allow people to get along. And I understand that the more dense the population, the more those rules and enforcement are necessary.

This is why I live in the sticks. There is just less interpersonal friction out here.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Flaws in libertarianism

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Statism is unavoidable. There has never been a major libertarian country. This is because, in any large enough group of people, some subset will assert control and become the authority. Once power is established, it is used to establish even more power. This continues until there is some sort of resource shortage perceived and then the out group holds a revolution. Wash, rinse, repeat.

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