Is it worth it to create joint finances?

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batbatmanne
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by batbatmanne »

Ego wrote: 1) Those who you know to be unreliable.
2) Those who may or may not be reliable.
3) Those who you would trust implicitly.

Enter a relationship as a 3 yourself and look for partners who show characteristics of 2 or 3.

Spend enough time with them and have enough experiences together so that you can determine their category.
Absolutely positively do not marry a 1 or 2.
Absolutely positively remain a 3 throughout.

If you do those things you have eliminate most of the risk. If you demand a prenup or separate finances you are entering as a 2 with a 2.

Separate finances could potentially evolve as a logical solution to some logistics problem among a couple of 3s who remain 3s throughout.
Maybe this is where I get hung up. I believe that my partner is a 3 and that I act as a 3 towards her. But the rational part of my brain knows that the highest that I can reliably assess anybody is as a 2. With the rate of divorce in my culture, the idea of trusting that my relationship could never fall apart over a number of decades, just because it's mine and I know better than everybody else, seems overconfident. I don't organize anything else in my life by ignoring the possible downsides. On the contrary, I take care to organize the rest of my life based on what could go wrong, so as to minimize how badly it will go if it does (antifragile style). I have a hard time seeing why this should be the exception.

In fact, I can think of ways that it can be seen as positive. One situation that I never want to be in is to have either me or my partner not happy with our relationship, but staying or acting differently than we might otherwise, just because one of us has developed a material dependence on the other. Consequently, growing together in a way that gives both of us the skills and means to live well independently further ensures that we will not end up in such a situation. In this case I think a fair prenup/postnup that is regularly updated to fit our needs can be seen as reinforcing the free choice to continue the relationship.

JasonR
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by JasonR »

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Ego
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by Ego »

batbatmanne wrote:I don't organize anything else in my life by ignoring the possible downsides. On the contrary, I take care to organize the rest of my life based on what could go wrong, so as to minimize how badly it will go if it does (antifragile style). I have a hard time seeing why this should be the exception.
Laying the groundwork in case of failure can precipitate that failure. The trapeze artist who operates without a safety net is infinitely more cautious than the one who has no worries because they know the net is there to catch them and is consequently more likely to fall.

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James_0011
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by James_0011 »

Ego wrote:
batbatmanne wrote:I don't organize anything else in my life by ignoring the possible downsides. On the contrary, I take care to organize the rest of my life based on what could go wrong, so as to minimize how badly it will go if it does (antifragile style). I have a hard time seeing why this should be the exception.
Laying the groundwork in case of failure can precipitate that failure. The trapeze artist who operates without a safety net is infinitely more cautious than the one who has no worries because they know the net is there to catch them and is consequently more likely to fall.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8509#p134889
Do you ride your bike without a helmet?
Drive your car without a seatbelt?
Skydive without a backup shoot?

James_0011
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by James_0011 »

JasonR wrote:Yes it's worth it if you both deem it so. Derp. How is this a question?
Sit down with your partner, do the math, and figure it out.

This issue happens once a year and the pattern is always the same. When it comes to relationships and donating everyone on this forum turns into Silas Marner. Or is it J. Alfred Prufrock? No, it's Gollum. It's such a defensive and fearful mindset. What if she takes 50% of my gold??!?! I don't know...take hers first?

I don't understand why I'm the first to mention this. I would have thought with all the 140+ IQs and hyper-rational INTJs everyone else would have solved this issue long before me. I talk with my hands so I'm not good at critical thinking, but give me a shot:

<sociopath>
If we're all jaded, misanthropic, atheists who scoff at institutions and social contracts...why aren't we using that to our advantage? Separate finances just leaves you where you are, whereas joint can make you better off if/when divorce strikes. Date hundreds of partners. Filter them like Ayn Rand is watching (she is) and then marry the richest and most naive (foreign med student from poor country who has high-demand sub-specialty, traditional values, and spent childhood living in squalor is a good combo). Commingle assets and other things. Make yourself anti-fragile to divorce if you're so paranoid about some spouse ravaging your comparatively minuscule hoard. Make sure their stash is bigger so you get the benefit of living in the 1% while you're together and then you get a nice check on the way out the door. Have skills, be handsome, the rest sorts itself out. If they dump you, you get half of their money and come out better for it. If you stay together you live like a champ. Why do it any other way?
</sociopath>
Your scenario implies intentionally doing someone harm, keeping separate finances doesn't internally harm anyone- it just protects yourself from harm.

JasonR
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by JasonR »

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Ego
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by Ego »

Risk benefit analysis. My point is that starting out with separate finances (or a prenup) has inherent risks as well as benefits. The risks are higher than the benefits.

JasonR
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by JasonR »

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wood
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by wood »

Ego wrote:One of the functions of dating is as a process of sorting people into one of three categories.

1) Those who you know to be unreliable.
2) Those who may or may not be reliable.
3) Those who you would trust implicitly.

Enter a relationship as a 3 yourself and look for partners who show characteristics of 2 or 3.
I can count on one hand the number of humans I would trust 100%, and even fewer would I share bed with. Many come in at 99.X% though.

Again, you might think you found a 3) until they prove you wrong.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

JasonR said: No, it's Gollum. It's such a defensive and fearful mindset.
It's also sort of self-defeating. Analogous to how another human might complain "He only likes me because I have big breasts." and then on another occasion take offense if somebody says that small breasts are cuter.

Do you want to be admired or respected or valued for your financial skillz or not? One of my best friends in high school was quite intelligent, kind-hearted, and very attractive, but never showed much talent for frugality (understatement.) Her father owned a chain of roller-skating rinks and her BF from the age of 14 was a devastatingly attractive bad boy speed skater. Whenever he cheated on her (again), she would console herself by driving her red Trans Am to the beauty parlor and paying somebody to wash her hair. She idiotically chose to marry him, had two sons (also grew up to be devastatingly handsome), and divorced by the time she was in her mid 20s. Luckily, she also managed to acquire a Master's Degree in Nursing Administration from a top university (I know for a fact she only got decent grades in AP Chem by flirting with the instructor.) Anyways, in spite of her very bad experience, she still had a sick need for the man-candy, so she ended up robbing the cradle and marrying a very cute, buff 22 year old guy when she was 28. He turned out to be a sweetheart, very handy, and a natural whiz with financial matters. When I met her for lunch, after not being in touch for many years, she told me "I can't believe it. I just handed the finances over to him, and now I have so much money!!!" Gollum or Hero? It's up to you.

slowtraveler
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by slowtraveler »

@7wannabe5- a few curiosities on whether I mispercieved your statements.

"I think any relationship contract two free adult people continue to maintain is by definition fair and joint."

Don't abusive relationships contradict this?

"If you imagine a couple who are exact twins in terms of market value of what they bring to the table besides gender designation, then it is obviously the female who is getting ripped off in a closed (monogamous/forever) relationship because her sexual value alone is worth much more on the open market."

Doesn't your chart in "Late Sexuality Extreme" show that sexual value is dependent on age? Ie-in this (equivalent value besides gender) couple both are 18-33 year old, female has higher sexual value, if both 34+ years old, male will have higher sexual value.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I said "I think any relationship contract two free adult people continue to maintain is by definition fair and joint."

Felipe said: Don't abusive relationships contradict this?
Well, I think abuse would likely cause one party to the contract to not be "free." Of course, sliding scale from "gun to head" to "made me feel unpretty" might also need to be applied since the term is so loosely slung about these-a-days. Ordinary marital sadism (tendency to take advantage of knowledge about which buttons to push to inflict most pain) would not qualify as abuse. As long as you both are still choosing to stick it to each other, your contract is fair and joint.
I said "If you imagine a couple who are exact twins in terms of market value of what they bring to the table besides gender designation, then it is obviously the female who is getting ripped off in a closed (monogamous/forever) relationship because her sexual value alone is worth much more on the open market."

Felipe said: Doesn't your chart in "Late Sexuality Extreme" show that sexual value is dependent on age? Ie-in this (equivalent value besides gender) couple both are 18-33 year old, female has higher sexual value, if both 34+ years old, male will have higher sexual value.
True and not true. The problem is that the overall demand from the male market is so much greater than the overall demand from the female market, even the most attractive men can't sit around waiting for some female to offer to take them out to dinner and a movie. Also, women prefer men close to their own age, but they won't "pay" or "discount" a huge premium to be with somebody their own age or younger, but many men will. Older women also tend towards exiting the market completely if/when they no longer sense that any men are behaving in a manner that indicates desire for them.

I'm 52 and going back to age 42 when I first divorced, my lovers have been age 54, 61, 52, 59, 62, 56, 57, 58, 69, 32, 52, 46, 52, 43 and 49. So, generally averaging right around a 7 year gap, with 24 years older and 12 years younger being the serious outliers. I never approach men first, so I don't know whether I would end up having to pay for sex if I only went for guys who were my age or slightly younger. Almost certainly I would go for more uggo guys my own age before I would pay for sex. Much younger men approach me all the time, but I'm not interested in them. My current BF is only 3 years older than me, quite good looking, and he pays for everything when we are together, so my take on the market is that it remains favorable to females well beyond age 33.

steveo73
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by steveo73 »

wood wrote:
steveo73 wrote:I'm married and our finances are just one pool. I don't see how you can really do it any other way. Maybe if you didn't have kids but I also have 3 kids.
Quite simple:
1. Estimate/budget expenses for kids
2. Create a joint account
3. Both contribute to that account
Do the same for other shared expenses like food and household items.

This is not considered joint finances, just to be clear:) This is sharing some costs. You still keep assets/debt separate if you want separate finances. Your savings are yours. Stressing this point makes me wonder whether everyone is talking about the same thing when we say "joint finances"?
I understand that you can do it technically. It's not about that to me. It's about doing what is right.

I earn probably 3 times what my wife earns but I honestly feel that she does at least as much work as what I do. I think splitting finances up when we contribute equally to the costs is unfair. I figure when you get married especially when you get married youngish and you have kids that the only way to view the relationship is a partnership.

I accept that there are times that splitting costs is probably fair. If one partner is a spender and one is frugal or if there is a significant disparity in wealth. This will probably piss people off but if you are in one of those situations them maybe you need to reconsider the idea of marriage with the person that you are thinking of marrying or you are entering a dysfunctional relationship.

steveo73
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by steveo73 »

Fish wrote:+1 to what poleo said above. If you don't possess a sense of agency over your relationship destiny then it is practical to separate finances or avoid marriage.

Another way of reducing the consequences is to diversify into other forms of human capital, e.g. social, technical and physical (health). A truly wealthy person does not fear a potential financial divide by 2 (or even multiply by 0). I would have to think that it should be reassuring that things like social connections, skills/knowledge/experience and years of life cannot be so easily taken.
To me it's really simple. A marriage or a LTR is a partnership. You should not be choosing someone who is incompatible to you when it comes to your combined financial relationship. That might be harsh but that is I think the only option.

It makes it simple as well. Just don't get married or have a LTR with someone who you aren't compatible with.

Saltation
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Re: Is it worth it to create joint finances?

Post by Saltation »

We have been married seven years and together for eleven. We enjoy joint finances. As a married couple we look at all accounts and consider all money ours. My wife and I look at any and all receipts every night to know what we are spending. We have a general rule that if it is more than one dollar that we ask the other person if it is alright. In our years of marriage this has worked and there are no complaints. We were married in a Catholic Church and as a result consider marriage a legal binding contract made in front of 100+ people as well as a lifelong union between two people. When I earn money it is my family's and the same for my wife. Before we were married it was extremely difficult to trade in my "independence" for "interdependence." Listening to other couples makes me think that joint finances works very well when you have a married couple that has similar spending concerns, goals and values. My wife (INFJ) is very considerate and understanding of my (InTJ) long-term plans for our finances. We make a plan, I explain all said contingencies, we consult on the best course of action for nearly all expenses and then execute the plan understanding the trust we place in one another to carry out said plan. I would not recommend joint finances if you do not have these similar financial goals and understandings. I would not have married if I could not trust my DW with the money that I earn.

The difficulties of split finances are numerous. Are costs split in half? Is it proportional to income? What about insurance? My wife has better insurance but I take home more money. Her work provides BOTH of us with life insurance so how will that be divided. It is technically her benefit but I need not carry as much from my work so I save money. What about child care? Vehicle repair? She drives to work but I bicycle. If the car breaks down who is responsible for payment? I work in the automobile industry. Is it my responsibility to save her money on repairs or is that her financial transaction? She drives to work and her work provides me with excellent health insurance benefits. Do I need to consider that when making my financial contribution to vehicle repair? This list can become exceeding long and tedious. I would rather write down what we spend in a notebook, track spending, trust my DW and join finances.

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