Halfmoon's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
Farm_or
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by Farm_or »

Excellent points.

Eastern Washington, SW Idaho, and Eastern Oregon should have formed one state.

I am one of those evil cattle grazers of public land. I have an interesting point of view, or two on that subject, because I am probably the only land owner, pasture leasor that was a mountain biker. I had a few conflicts with over zealous public land renters.

To keep it short, the most obvious benefit of grazing here is the reduction of fire danger. We had a real scare in 15 from the monstrous soda ash fire! Our good neighbors helped us organize an evacuation plan, including livestock. We were relieved when the wind changed

Riggerjack
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by Riggerjack »

3. We thought it would be easy to hire people, whether for skilled work (excavation, carpentry) or general labor. In reality, the pool of workers was small, undermotivated and not particularly cheap.
True that.

But remember who you are hiring, when looking at the pool of unemployed or underemployed, or independent contractors. The unemployed are the weakest link in their trade, or unlucky (good people sometimes work for bad companies). Contractors are generally the guys who couldn't work for someone else, and have traded a regular thing for independence. It's not a bad trade, but it means looking for more pay per hour, since less time is spent working, more looking for work. They also need to develop sales skills, leaving less time and expertise for their trade.

I find what is best is to look for tradesmen looking for sidework on weekends. I expect to pay them about the same as I make, only in cash. And even so, I often need to weed out folks, but I had to do that as a foreman, too. The guys who are best at their trade, need work the least. You generally need a connection to get them.

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

Farm_or wrote:
I am one of those evil cattle grazers of public land.

To keep it short, the most obvious benefit of grazing here is the reduction of fire danger. We had a real scare in 15 from the monstrous soda ash fire! Our good neighbors helped us organize an evacuation plan, including livestock. We were relieved when the wind changed
I thought you might have grazing permits, and I forgive you. :D

Really, every kind of public land use (grazing, logging, recreation) has its good stewards and its abusers -- along with a wide range of opinion on how those extremes are defined.

I can see that trying to evacuate livestock in the face of wildfire would be extremely difficult. We never encountered that issue, but forest fires came frighteningly close to our home in Eastern Washington three times. Each time, we packed up the huge and heavy cherry corner cupboard built by my great-great grandfather for his daughter's wedding and took it down to the valley out of imminent danger. DH got understandably tired of the routine (including bringing it back, of course), but the responsibility of a family heirloom weighed on me. After the last time, DH said he would gladly burn the corner cupboard himself next time a fire comes close. :evil:

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

Riggerjack wrote:
3. We thought it would be easy to hire people, whether for skilled work (excavation, carpentry) or general labor. In reality, the pool of workers was small, undermotivated and not particularly cheap.
True that.

But remember who you are hiring, when looking at the pool of unemployed or underemployed, or independent contractors. The unemployed are the weakest link in their trade, or unlucky (good people sometimes work for bad companies).

I find what is best is to look for tradesmen looking for sidework on weekends. I expect to pay them about the same as I make, only in cash. And even so, I often need to weed out folks, but I had to do that as a foreman, too. The guys who are best at their trade, need work the least. You generally need a connection to get them.
We were far away from thinking this clearly. We had a rosy notion that rural/depressed areas are full of salt-of-the-earth, hard-working people who are just waiting for some benevolent person from the city to come and offer them cheap cash work. :roll: In reality, the motivated usually already have jobs (lots of public land and agencies with related jobs), work for their own farms/businesses, or have moved away. The remainder are often retired, on disability (a LOT of that), living the homestead hippie dream, or just sort of...relaxed.

I still have a business client in the area, and one of their greatest ongoing challenges is finding reliable workers. They pay pretty well, but it's hard and messy industrial labor. They mostly hire Hispanics.

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

THE HOMESTEAD/ACCUMULATION YEARS

CHANGING COURSE, continued

When we arrived home, I immediately called every realtor in the area to ask about property in our target area. They all had the same discouraging message. This valley and the surrounding mountains were dominated by publicly owned land: state forest, national forest, designated wilderness and state game land. Property rarely entered the market, we were told, and when it did? The locals bought it.

That was about as discouraging as waving a steak in front of a wolf. Next days off, we were back in nearby towns looking for more real estate agents. We walked into one office and struck gold. The agent was a gray-haired Indian* who was familiar with the area; in fact, he had once lived in a commune on the mountainside.

(*I would say Native American, but I talked once with a tribal museum attendant and asked whether they prefer Native American, First Nation Peoples [Canadian term] or Indian. He said these are all white-society labels, and they really didn’t care what the whites called them; they used tribal and clan designations.)

This agent had genuine insider information. He knew that a couple who owned a 40-acre inholding in the state forest were getting a divorce. The husband didn’t want to sell, but the wife did. He agreed to show us the property with the wife’s permission although it wasn’t formally listed. :D

I should take a moment to outline what we’d decided early in the search were non-negotiable requirements for a land purchase:

1. Southern exposure for solar and gardening
2. Running water and/or an existing well
3. NO easement through the property

Spoiler alert: we violated all requirements.

Farm_or
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by Farm_or »

The scarcity of good investable land has been a subject of ours recently. We are always trying to plan ahead, like the next 5-10 years and selling our home on the range and relocating is a real consideration.

It's still a long ways out, maybe, but tugs on the heart strings when you have put so much of yourself in a place. I can't explain the power of place; that connection with the land and sense of belonging?

The scariest thing is that it is a permanent deal and you can't go back. There are only so many once in a lifetime opportunities until your life runs out.

But those are part of the reasons for trying to look far ahead. Maybe time will help dissolve some emotional attachments? The good news is that our property value doubled my expectations. Sweat equity is the way to go with real estate.

You're the account, so I know that you know better than me. Finding that place that was overlooked by the majority, spit shining and improving it to the mean standard, so that now the majority notices. And that is the recipe for a great ROI.

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

Farm_or,

The things you mention are a big part of the story I'm telling. Sweat equity has always been our path, and we invest a lot of ourselves emotionally also. We still have far too much real estate, but it's hard to let go.

We have friends who live in an old farmhouse on 500 acres in Eastern Washington. They used to have animals, but they're older now and struggle to keep up with just living there: wood heat, long access road, failing septic, spring water that freezes in winter. We've urged them for years to sell and move into town, but there comes a point when the process is overwhelming.
Last edited by halfmoon on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

LucyInTheSky
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by LucyInTheSky »

Hi Halfmoon,

Love your story. Joined the forum just so I could keep up to date with the Halfmoon Saga. I'm from Eastern WA, and my parents are in the same situation as your elderly friends. My dad wouldn't dream of moving to town, and they drop hints all the time about how I could move into the other homestead on their land...which terrifies me when I consider some of the details of the property (ancient gas pumps, questionable septic systems, etc...). Plus I don't live in the area anymore and I still rely on a J O B...details! Can't wait for the next chapter.

George the original one
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by George the original one »

My in-laws are in their 80s with 40 acres and a downsized herd of cattle. Fortunately they have a heat pump rather than using their woodstove! She is not in any condition to maintain the place, so it's he who keeps it going. He made an effort to look into moving a few years ago, but ended up deciding the work to move was greater than just decaying in place, so made a few more home renovations to enable an easier passage.

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

Hi, Lucy!

I'm so glad that you joined, and I love the Halfmoon Saga title. I also joined so I could comment on another journal (@last_digit_of_pi). Warning: it's a slippery slope. I expect to see a blizzard of posts from you now on. :D

I get the parental pressure to move back home. For years, my father used to urge DH and me to move from Seattle to some depressed town in Pennsylvania. His argument was that houses could be bought very cheaply. My response: there are reasons for that.

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

George the original one wrote:My in-laws are in their 80s with 40 acres and a downsized herd of cattle. Fortunately they have a heat pump rather than using their woodstove! She is not in any condition to maintain the place, so it's he who keeps it going. He made an effort to look into moving a few years ago, but ended up deciding the work to move was greater than just decaying in place, so made a few more home renovations to enable an easier passage.
This is the scenario that keeps me up at night. I'm 21 years younger than DH (and haven't been through debilitating bouts of cancer), so I actually have more stamina. The problem: our chosen lifestyle is somewhat labor-intensive. More critically, it relies hugely on DH's mechanical expertise (lawn mowers, tractor, brush cutters, well pump, generators, solar system electrical, chainsaws, etc.). I'm pretty sure, though, that moving into town would be the first step to sitting in front of the TV all day.

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

THE HOMESTEAD/ACCUMULATION YEARS

CHANGING COURSE, continued:

I forgot to list one huge item in our non-negotiable requirements for land purchase: the property could not be recently logged. Timber rights and logged-over land are the Hydra of the western US. Some properties don’t come with timber rights, which can be a shock for purchasers when a second party comes in and cuts the trees. Some come with timber rights, but the owners have logged the land shortly before selling. This might be a careful calculation of timber revenue combined with residual land value when the decision has been already made to sell. Other times, I think it’s more subjective: a loss of love for the land when the trees have been cut.

Back to looking at the land for sale.

As we followed the real estate agent up a steep mountain road into state forest, I became increasingly excited. It’s hard to describe how the land gripped my imagination. Pine, fir and larch thickly dominated the ground with an occasional gap over precipitous cliffs revealing the valley below. It was a dream realized.

The agent pulled off onto a dirt track, and we walked into the 40-acre parcel. Rude awakening.

1. Northern exposure very challenged for solar and useless for gardening.
2. No running water or existing well.
3. State forest road running through the property.
4. Recently logged and not cleaned up, so timber slash lay across the land like Pick-up sticks.
5. Bonus: old toilets, broken glass, abandoned vehicles and a Visqueen-wrapped outbuilding referred to as the “Plastic Palace”.

Sensing our lack of enthusiasm, the agent said we should look at a nearby parcel that might be available.

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

We looked at the other parcel next. It was 17 acres with a south-facing slope on a nice creek. Access involved driving through the creek at a wide, shallow spot (still not cool). It came with the requisite abandoned vehicles and a tiny 3-sided outdoor shelter made of unpeeled logs. We loved it, of course. ;)

We wanted to make an offer immediately, but it wasn’t so simple. The owner was hard to reach and hadn’t actually indicated a desire to sell, let alone listing the property. The agent said he would write him a letter with our offer. We okayed the offer and returned home. Then we began to think….

Chances of buying the 17 south-facing acres were dicey. We didn’t like the 40-acre property on many levels, but it was certainly more available. We absolutely loved the area in general, and it was clear that opportunities to buy there were limited. How should we choose?

After some discussion, we decided to make an additional offer on the 40 acres while leaving the offer on the 17 acres standing. Asking price on the 40 acres was only $20,000, so buying both wasn’t inconceivable. Being us, we offered $18,000 on the 40 acres.

Despite my previous negative points, the 40 acres did have its positive features:

1. A seasonal creek ran along one side. It wasn’t like the creek on the other parcel, but still.
2. The land had some natural wet spots (per geography and vegetation) that suggested the possibility of a well or spring.
3. Not all of the large trees had been logged. The owners had dreamed of building a log home, so they’d saved some nice fir and larch to harvest later. They also left the big old ponderosa pines and aspen because they (thankfully) didn’t have much market value at the time. Finally, there was a "real estate cut" along the road. This means logging very lightly and leaving the larger trees so it looks good at first glance.
4. The building site we’d identified had a nice view of mountains on the other side of the narrow valley.
5. Most importantly: location. The parcel was surrounded on 3 sides by state forest and was on the very edge of private land ownership for the next 100 miles or so. This meant that state forest, national forest, designated wilderness and national park were our back yard.

The divorcing couple accepted our offer. We bought 40 acres in our version of paradise for $450/acre. Now began the real work.

enigmaT120
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by enigmaT120 »

I remember reading somewhere that northern exposure is good for fruit orchards. Helps keep them from blooming too early (and getting caught by a late frost) or something like that.

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

@enigma,

I think that's true. Some orchardists wrap their tree trunks in white material (or paint them white) to keep them from absorbing early spring solar heat. The property we bought and moved to, however, was at 3500 feet elevation and not very suitable for growing things that didn't naturally occur there. We were tired of gardening, planting trees and working our tails off at that point, and we swore that retirement would be an end to excessive labor and cultivation. Oh, how we humans love to kid ourselves... :lol:

Farm_or
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by Farm_or »

We have a nice orchard of 30 trees. A lot of extra work! Some of ours are painted because we occasionally get a sheep that loves the bark. But most of the time, we only put weiner lambs in there since they have never harm the trees

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

OUTTAKE

WILDLIFE ENCOUNTERS:

@enigmaT120 and @Farm_or have detoured my thoughts from the primary story to orchards...and from there to wildlife. I blame them completely. :P

We used to have an orchard, and we have one now. It's undergone some changes, though. When we moved to our first place in the homesteading phase, we promptly planted about 20 fruit trees: 2 cherries, 1 pear and the remainder a variety of apples. There was an existing Italian plum thicket near the house, and we pruned that down to 2 shoots. We firmly believe in the adage that the best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago.

The trees grew well despite our benign neglect and eventually began to produce. Then began the Fruit Wars. The first line of assault consisted of steller's jays (DH calls them flying pigs) eating the cherries and pecking at the apples. Then came the raccoons, who climbed the cherry and plum trees to harvest fruit and store it in our pond outlet pipe (automatic food washer?). Coyotes and deer picked up the fallen apples, but all assault paled in the face of the major artillery: bears.

I love bears. They look like huge, furry dogs with big butts, and their antics can appear comical. They're all business, though, when it comes to food. They climbed some of the bigger trees, breaking branches and digging deep claw marks into the trunks. Our Asian pear was skinny but covered with fruit, so one bear climbed almost to the top and then slid back down, breaking every branch as he went. The tree was left with a little pouf of leaves at the top like a poodle's haircut.

The trees that were too small to climb were pushed over to facilitate apple harvest. The smallest apple trees are along the forest edge, and these became over the years a lurching line of fallen soldiers still stubbornly producing fruit for their abusers.

We have a conflicted relationship with wildlife. After the Chicken Wars, we decided never to kill predators again (including fruit predators :D ). Our final solution was to cede the old orchard to the wildlife and plant a new one surrounded by serious fencing. Defeat With Honor. We called the fenced area The Compound (also known as the fruit tree prison), and we planted apple, peach, plum, cherry and pear trees. The Compound also houses 18 blueberry bushes, gooseberries, currants, 2 rows of raspberries and 3 garden beds. We ran electric wire around it and have a charger hooked up, but we've never needed to turn it on. Yet.

Now we enjoy seeing wildlife in the old orchard and even have a game camera mounted there. A couple of photos (grainy and blurry, as game cameras are):

Image

Image

I mentioned in another post that we saw a cougar swagger through our property about 18 months ago. I wish we'd taken a photo, but we were just dazzled by the sight and couldn't think. We also see bobcats, owls and pileated woodpeckers on a regular basis. It's a privilege.

One last story. DH may have given up the old orchard, but the plum trees by the house were sacred. The bears eventually discovered those, and they eventually became brave enough to initiate nighttime raids. DH was furious; he loves plums.

One night, we were returning home late after being gone for a few days. DH was convinced that bears were stealing all the plums in our absence. He raced up the driveway and came to a stop with the high beams lit, intent on spotting a larcenous bear or two. We didn't see anything under the trees in our headlight beam, but once out of the car, we heard a low growl in the darkness. We froze. Another growl, more insistent...but our flashlight's small beam didn't reveal any huge, hairy beast under the trees. I scrambled frantically into the house for our big spotlight, dropping the door keys just like those ditzy people in horror movies and imagining a bear charging on DH. I finally found the spotlight and ran back outside with it. Nothing to be seen. Then another growl sounded, and we finally realized it was coming from up in one of the trees. We raised the light. There were 3 baby raccoons and a furiously growling mother.
Last edited by halfmoon on Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OTCW
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by OTCW »

halfmoon wrote:
George the original one wrote:My in-laws are in their 80s with 40 acres and a downsized herd of cattle. Fortunately they have a heat pump rather than using their woodstove! She is not in any condition to maintain the place, so it's he who keeps it going. He made an effort to look into moving a few years ago, but ended up deciding the work to move was greater than just decaying in place, so made a few more home renovations to enable an easier passage.
This is the scenario that keeps me up at night. I'm 21 years younger than DH (and haven't been through debilitating bouts of cancer), so I actually have more stamina. The problem: our chosen lifestyle is somewhat labor-intensive. More critically, it relies hugely on DH's mechanical expertise (lawn mowers, tractor, brush cutters, well pump, generators, solar system electrical, chainsaws, etc.). I'm pretty sure, though, that moving into town would be the first step to sitting in front of the TV all day.
My grandfather was a farmer. When he moved to town late in life, he kept a huge vegetable garden and greenhouse. Did fine with that transition until his late 80s. Couldnt handle the garden anymore, and went downhill fast.

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

OTCW wrote:My grandfather was a farmer. When he moved to town late in life, he kept a huge vegetable garden and greenhouse. Did fine with that transition until his late 80s. Couldnt handle the garden anymore, and went downhill fast.
My grandfather was an urban farmer. He kept a huge vegetable garden (no greenhouse), and my grandmother canned all the excess. Every year, he chose something that supposedly wouldn't grow in Pennsylvania and planted it. Two things that stand out in my mind are cotton and peanuts. It was a revelation to me that there was a plant producing cotton balls and that peanuts grew undergound. When my grandfather pulled peanuts out of the dirt, I was astonished. I had imagined in the back of my mind that peanuts grew on trees and the shells were some sort of packaging. :oops:

When my grandfather turned 89, he went to his doctor and complained that it was getting hard to turn over his 1/2-acre garden by hand in the spring. He died a year after.

halfmoon
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Re: Halfmoon's journal

Post by halfmoon »

I've been consumed with year-end accounting and meetings, so I dropped this for awhile. I hope there's still some interest in my tale. :(

THE HOMESTEAD/ACCUMULATION YEARS

We signed papers on the land in December, then drove up through deep snow to our new place to celebrate Christmas. We stayed there in the van for a couple of days, building a big rock-piled outdoor fireplace, stomping around in the snow (didn’t have snowshoes or skis yet), dreaming of the house we’d build and generally freezing our butts off. The only time we were actually warm was when we visited the people who lived in a log cabin on the parcel below ours. They had moved away by the time we moved in (therein lies a tale), but that Christmas their lantern-lit home was a lovely pool of warmth.

When we returned to the van on Christmas night, the thermometer read minus 20 Fahrenheit. We went to bed clothed in down and wool, propane heater running full out, but we just couldn’t get warm. DH was feeling sick due to the elevation, and our Weimaraner was shaking despite multiple blankets. We finally decided to drive down the mountain in the dark and seek warmer pastures. DH crawled across the dogs to the front of the van, turned the key…and the engine refused to fire. Everything, from battery to oil pan, was just too cold. This is the moment in the tragic couple-freezes-to-death movie when things look bad. :shock:

Ah, but our hero (DH) had installed a second battery in the van to power our lights, and he had a button on the dashboard that connected the auxiliary battery to the primary one when pressed. With the power boost, the engine caught and held. Happy ending.

All this drama didn’t take the edge off our enthusiasm, though. DH and I shared a weird desire to push ourselves, so battling the elements was just rocket fuel. Back home, we sat down and ran through some estimates of what it would cost us in time and money to fence the land, build a livable house, set up a solar/battery system and figure out what to do about water. There was one inescapable conclusion: we needed to work for another year before we could move.

DH was hesitant to dive off the no-more-income cliff anyway, so he took the news well. His loving wife? Not so much. Every part of me wanted to leave that hellish, stressful restaurant job and move to the mountains immediately. My in-home accounting business was going fine, but it also provided plenty of stress. It didn’t help that Seattle was in the middle of its 9-month rainy season, traffic on our hour-long commute was getting worse, our neighbors started a legal dispute over the easement road, DH’s son kept calling us to bail him out of trouble….I just wanted it all to magically go away.

I cried every day for a month. Not all day, but at least once a day. I began buying lottery tickets, which in my normally rational mind is worse than throwing dollar bills into a fire (at least the burning money will keep you warm for a moment). I finally snapped out of it. Feeling sorry for myself because I had to wait until age 34 to retire seemed kind of ridiculous. Besides, we had a house to build.

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