Ego wrote: " Seeing a human being as an animal requires a cognitive leap that doesn't happen naturally except in psychopaths."
Are you sure you're not anthromorphizing people? Humans have long considered other (man-made) categories of people as being less than human, or at least as not deserving the same consideration they give real humans like their family, friends, or race. Empathy isn't a good description for how humans apparently feel for one another, based on how they treat each other.
ERE and Pets
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enigmaT120
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Re: ERE and Pets
That's true. Maybe I am expecting better of humanity than we have.enigmaT120 wrote:Are you sure you're not anthromorphizing people? Humans have long considered other (man-made) categories of people as being less than human, or at least as not deserving the same consideration they give real humans like their family, friends, or race. Empathy isn't a good description for how humans apparently feel for one another, based on how they treat each other.
I guess my main point, which I didn't express very well, is to look at pet ownership through the eyes of Bernays.
Re: ERE and Pets
Ah... pets... expensive little buggers!
Shortly before I discovered ERE, I found a lot of time on my hands. We'd just bought our first home, weren't really bothering with much DIY as it was in ok condition bar decor and I pretty much went to work and played computer games in my spare time.
I allowed myself to foster an interest in tropical fish and quickly got caught up in the collector/consumer aspect of it, subscribing to a magazine in which all the shiny new shit in the world of fishkeeping was paraded on a monthly basis. Fast forward 6 months or so and I'd spent £1,300? on a bright red aquarium and a bunch of hi tech light fittings and filters to create a complex life support system for 20-30 attractive but silent lifeforms that then proceeded to waste my money for 3+ years.
Over this period I spent money on replacement parts, electricity, plants, chemicals to nurture the plants, fish, fish food, dechlorinator, medicine, piping and buckets. I also spent hundreds of hours and for what? Basically the occasional look in the tank to make sure that nothing was dead! Ok, maybe a little pessimistic, it did teach me a bit about biology and chemistry and made me think a lot more about the environment.
After a mass wipeout at the start of 2016, I bit the bullet and admitted to myself that the hobby was no better than a habit and got rid of the aquarium, rehoming the last few fish.
If I had a time machine, I would go back and punch myself in the face at the point where I decided to buy the aquarium.
No longer having a pet is liberating!
Shortly before I discovered ERE, I found a lot of time on my hands. We'd just bought our first home, weren't really bothering with much DIY as it was in ok condition bar decor and I pretty much went to work and played computer games in my spare time.
I allowed myself to foster an interest in tropical fish and quickly got caught up in the collector/consumer aspect of it, subscribing to a magazine in which all the shiny new shit in the world of fishkeeping was paraded on a monthly basis. Fast forward 6 months or so and I'd spent £1,300? on a bright red aquarium and a bunch of hi tech light fittings and filters to create a complex life support system for 20-30 attractive but silent lifeforms that then proceeded to waste my money for 3+ years.
Over this period I spent money on replacement parts, electricity, plants, chemicals to nurture the plants, fish, fish food, dechlorinator, medicine, piping and buckets. I also spent hundreds of hours and for what? Basically the occasional look in the tank to make sure that nothing was dead! Ok, maybe a little pessimistic, it did teach me a bit about biology and chemistry and made me think a lot more about the environment.
After a mass wipeout at the start of 2016, I bit the bullet and admitted to myself that the hobby was no better than a habit and got rid of the aquarium, rehoming the last few fish.
If I had a time machine, I would go back and punch myself in the face at the point where I decided to buy the aquarium.
No longer having a pet is liberating!
Re: ERE and Pets
I try my best to avoid pets at all costs. Sadly one of my roommates decided it'd be a great idea to leave their cat behind for two months and ask for me to take care of it after they had already departed.
I value my time and freedom more than I do purchasing, owning paperwork for, feeding, providing water to, cleaning crap, and treating illnesses of other animals. I further value human connection more than using other animals as a surrogate for human connection. Finally, purchasing and owning other animals for what seems to be human entertainment seems just as unethical as human slavery was. I mean, even if the cat or dog is otherwise happy, it still cannot leave it's 4 walls without the owner's permission in any suburban or urban space.
I value my time and freedom more than I do purchasing, owning paperwork for, feeding, providing water to, cleaning crap, and treating illnesses of other animals. I further value human connection more than using other animals as a surrogate for human connection. Finally, purchasing and owning other animals for what seems to be human entertainment seems just as unethical as human slavery was. I mean, even if the cat or dog is otherwise happy, it still cannot leave it's 4 walls without the owner's permission in any suburban or urban space.
Re: ERE and Pets
The poor writer is being crucified in the comments...Ego wrote: Think about the arc of Bernays style social control. How might pets fit into that arc. Socially atomized. Commoditized love provided by bought, controllable companions.
http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/10/pets-ar ... -that.html
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jacob
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Re: ERE and Pets
@Ego - Of course, the idea that there's something called "childhood" and that it deserves to be elevated to something special is also a rather new idea. Less than 100 years ago, children (over age 7) were still thought of as small and fully responsible adults albeit somewhat incompetent/inexperienced instead of ... controllable companions, i.e. "kids". Turning pet ownership into some kind of "special" glorified experience along with parenting seems like just another progression in #firstworld #luxury #livinginabubble experiences.
Re: ERE and Pets
I mostly agree with the author, but I would add that I also find it somewhat baffling when adult humans treat other adult humans like babies. Almost everybody, except BRUTE, has some level of need to be inner spoon, outer spoon, or both. Who or what do you take care of? Who or what takes care of you? Might be my cat and Jesus. Might be my Teddy Bear and my Mommy. Might be my crew and my Commander. Might be my significant other and my significant other. Etc. etc. etc.
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jennypenny
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Re: ERE and Pets
Just for you, Ego ... People who talk to pets, plants, and cars are actually totally normal, according to science
" ... there’s a scientific explanation for why we anthropomorphize as adults—and it’s rooted in intelligence, not ignorance."
and ... “For centuries, our willingness to recognize minds in nonhumans has been seen as a kind of stupidity, a childlike tendency toward anthropomorphism and superstition that educated and clear-thinking adults have outgrown,” writes Epley. “I think this view is both mistaken and unfortunate. Recognizing the mind of another human being involves the same psychological processes as recognizing a mind in other animals, a god, or even a gadget. It is a reflection of our brain’s greatest ability rather than a sign of our stupidity.”
" ... there’s a scientific explanation for why we anthropomorphize as adults—and it’s rooted in intelligence, not ignorance."
and ... “For centuries, our willingness to recognize minds in nonhumans has been seen as a kind of stupidity, a childlike tendency toward anthropomorphism and superstition that educated and clear-thinking adults have outgrown,” writes Epley. “I think this view is both mistaken and unfortunate. Recognizing the mind of another human being involves the same psychological processes as recognizing a mind in other animals, a god, or even a gadget. It is a reflection of our brain’s greatest ability rather than a sign of our stupidity.”
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enigmaT120
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Re: ERE and Pets
Actually JP that quote just made me realize that I only fool myself into thinking that I recognize a mind in another human being. It's still just my imagination, just like it is with my old Triumph Bonneville or trusty Fargo.
Re: ERE and Pets
Funny, a few days ago I was reading Derek Sivers Tiny Summary of that book and reserved it at the library.
https://sivers.org/book/Mindwise
In the summary he mentioned....
Your brain’s greatest skill is its ability to think about the minds of others in order to understand them better.
More time together did not make couples any more accurate; it just gave them the illusion that they were more accurate.
Hah!
I certainly believe that the ability to see the world through other peoples' eyes is an important skill. I doubt it is equally importance to see the world through the eyes of a car or a house or a cat. As I mentioned above, this type of anthropomorphism is at the center of consumerism, where you are buying something that you can have a relationship with rather than... a thing.
https://sivers.org/book/Mindwise
In the summary he mentioned....
Your brain’s greatest skill is its ability to think about the minds of others in order to understand them better.
More time together did not make couples any more accurate; it just gave them the illusion that they were more accurate.
Hah!
I certainly believe that the ability to see the world through other peoples' eyes is an important skill. I doubt it is equally importance to see the world through the eyes of a car or a house or a cat. As I mentioned above, this type of anthropomorphism is at the center of consumerism, where you are buying something that you can have a relationship with rather than... a thing.
Re: ERE and Pets
It might be important to see the world through the eyes of a woodchuck or a streptococci.
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enigmaT120
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Re: ERE and Pets
Frank Herbert discussed this in The Dosadi Experiment. The people on the experimental planet survived by building accurate working models of other people, in their own heads. Teams could somehow use tech to fine tune a working model of somebody outside the group, usually an enemy. That book helped me realize that 1) I suck at that. and 2) even when I can do it, I still can't see through anybody else' eyes. I can just better predict that person's reactions to what I might do. Hey, it was high school.