Open relationship?

How to pass, fit in, eventually set an example, and ultimately lead the way.
7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@wood: Have you and your wife ever swapped directly with another couple you didn't know previously? If so, how (recommended site?) did you make these arrangements, and how did it go? Part B of my current scheme may require another couple. It's pretty clear that one of the problems that the polyamory scene shares with the S&M scene is a shortage of free-agent females. Like it's almost impossible to plan for a dinner party without ending up with at least one extra man.

Part A of my scheme, so far, went even better than I expected. The Permaculture Manager agreed to escort me to dine this evening with the Peacemaker and his wife. So, now I just need to make further arrangements to keep the Cowboy happy. We get along quite well in a sort of instant-old-married-couple way, so he could maybe be my de facto home-boy primary if he finds that he likes to play.

Of course, this complex scheme may fail completely, leaving me all alone in my decrepit garden camper with nothing but a stack of library books and a bowl of mulberries for company and comfort. Yup, pretty much win-WIN-WIN

EdithKeeler
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by EdithKeeler »

Reading this whole thread is fascinating to me. I guess I don't think about my relationship enough. We go out, eat dinner,go to the movies, have sex, go on vacation, do stuff, share a lot of interests, but not all. And we're both TALKERS. And it's just the two of us, which is good, because one thing we do have in common that much more would be exhausting for both of us. I can't imagine having to deal with more than one person. We also live in separate states, and when we're together, really don't even like to sleep in the same bed that much. We keep talking about taking the next step in our relationship of buying a duplex together, where he'd live on one side and me on the other. We were talking tonight about what loners we both are, and being loners, our "thing" works for us. It's easy. Your deal sounds way more complicated than I'd want, and I love IlliniDave's comment about clutter. Too funny!

Which is to say: I support your choices, and am glad it works for you, but it would not work for me!

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

EdithKeeler said: Your deal sounds way more complicated than I'd want, and I love IlliniDave's comment about clutter. Too funny!
Many things such as society, economic activities and markets, and cultural behavior are apparently man-made but grow on their own to reach some kind of self-organization. They may not be strictly biological, but they resemble the biological in that, in a way, they multiply and replicate- think of rumors, ideas, technologies and businesses. They are closer to the cat than to the washing machine but tend to be mistaken for washing machines. Accordingly we can generalize our distinction beyond the biological-nonbiological. More effective is the distinction between noncomplex and complex systems.
Artificial, man-made mechanical and engineering contraptions with simple responses are complicated but not "complex," as they don't have interdependencies. You push a button, say, a light switch, and get an exact response, with no possible ambiguity in the consequences, even in Russia. But with complex systems, interdependencies are severe. You need to think in terms of ecology: if you remove a specific animal you disrupt a food chain: its predators will starve and its prey will grow unchecked, causing complication and series of cascading side effects.
"Anti-Fragile"- Taleb
My current theory or argument would be that polyamory does not create complications, it simply recognizes the already existing complexity in human sexual functioning and modern intimate relationships. OTOH, it has been my recent experience that when you attempt to become fully accepting of the actual practices and desires of others, some kind of surreal stuff can happen. A simple example of recognizing the actual in this realm would be that most people in monogamous relationship still have active fantasy or masturbatory relationships with other "partners", and most mature adults are accepting of this, and not overly interested or concerned, as long as their own needs are being met within the context/contract of the relationship. A counter-example would be that the Peacemaker's wife's current stance is that it might be alright if he resumes his sexual relationship with me, as long as he no longer tells me that he loves me. I brought the Permaculture Manager to the dinner where I met the Peacemaker's wife, and he even went so far as to practically nuzzle her neck when the four of us were parting, but to no avail. His instant somewhat objective analysis of the situation was summed up in the 3 words "She hates you." Then the two of us went and had a few more drinks, and he told me that I am not polyamorous, like the Peacemaker and his wife (previously),I am just single-non-committal, like him, but now we seem to just fully be in the "buddy" zone. So, my only remaining sexual partner is the Cowboy, and we spent the weekend living together in a hotel room with a kitchenette in which he pretty much forced me to prove that I can cook. The irony of my situation at the moment is that nobody is primarily using or valuing me as a sex object. If I continue on in this fashion, I am going to end up with this giant collection of old men hanging about my garden camper and informing me that my water system is unbelievably annoyingly f*cking inefficient, I do not know how to use a shovel properly, I am going to hurt myself if I use such a dull knife to slice the onion, I will get all sweaty if I bike all the way downtown by myself, etc. etc. etc. and then solving my unf*cking believably annoying problems for me by either buying me stuff or removing tools from my hands to show me how it is supposed to be done.

I should note that I mostly just find the behavior of high-strung, grouchy people kind of funny. They are comical to me like Yosemite Sam. However, they need to learn that they are not allowed to yell at me just because the inadequacy of some tool at hand causes their masculine energy to feel frustrated in its core quest for freedom through competence. The way that they learn is I don't give them any attention whatsoever until they apologize.

wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood »

7Wannabe5 wrote:@wood: Have you and your wife ever swapped directly with another couple you didn't know previously? If so, how (recommended site?) did you make these arrangements, and how did it go? Part B of my current scheme may require another couple. It's pretty clear that one of the problems that the polyamory scene shares with the S&M scene is a shortage of free-agent females. Like it's almost impossible to plan for a dinner party without ending up with at least one extra man.
We have not yet tried the swingers scene, but we play with the idea from time to time. Our main issue is finding a trustworthy and suitable site/place to go to and so far we have 2 recommendations gathered from friends that we might try out in the future. Both places are basically clubs (not brothels) in European countries and everything happens in one day/night. I don't know of any site apart from a couple of local dating sites/forums and we are yet to strike lucky on those. We live in Scandinavia and will most likely have to travel abroad to find a pool of people around the same age as ours that we both find attractive.

I totally get the extra man problem. I might be biased, but I have reason to believe this problem might stick around for a while.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Last night the Cowboy and I attended a singles night hosted by the dating site we met on. Seriously slim pickings. We tried to pretend like we were each there on our own, but determined that it was pointless after about 15 minutes. Anyways, I can now cross "walk into a bar by myself with semi-obvious intent" off my bucket list of things I've always been marginally too chicken to do. One interesting thing I have noticed is that the effect of this outing with Cowboy, and another recent adventure involving 3rd party with the Peacemaker, was that I actually felt closer to the man with whom I planned the adventure because that's where I was looking for back.

wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood »

Well, to give you an update on my life, I'm currently having an online "fling" with a woman who lives abroad in one of the countries that are on my "to be forever frequently visited" bucket list. She is jealous of the fact I have a primary partner, and we deal with it by me not mentioning my primary partner to her. My future retirement plan involves being located in some 3 different countries throughout the year and ideally I'd want to have one or several women in each location.

I'm also starting to notice that I refer to my wife as "primary partner" more often than before. I think this is partially influenced by you. And partially from the fact we got married primarily for legal reasons. It was the easiest way for us to live in the same country. We are planning to get married in front of friends and family in her home country in 2018.

3 weeks from now we are getting a visit from a common female friend who will stay for some days, then leave, then come back for a few days again. It's the one we threesomed at new year's 6 months ago. She is really nice to hang out with, surprisingly intelligent for a 22 year old but also incredibly hot. The age difference is not too obvious. My wife, lets just call her Megpie, is feeling summer hornyness and is hungry for female sexual interaction. Everything should be primed for some days of extraordinary sex, although I try keep my expectations low.

Apart from that, business as usual, but I did get the "omg but you're married!" reaction last week when attempting to up the game with someone who's been flirting with me. Women... :p It seems very few people deal with this polyamoury thing effortlessly without some form of jealousy/scepticism, and I think it's more common in women than in men.

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GandK
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by GandK »

wood wrote:... and I think it's more common in women than in men.
Not my experience with jealousy. I think with men we tend to call it possessiveness, which sounds slightly more acceptable, but I think men and women are equally likely to be uncomfortable with the idea of their partner being intimate with someone else. I think you're probably finding more jealous women because you're not in situations yet that would lead to jealous men.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

wood: I'm also starting to notice that I refer to my wife as "primary partner" more often than before. I think this is partially influenced by you.
Words are very important, but I only hope to occasionally amuse with my random babble ;)

My wife, lets just call her Megpie, is feeling summer hornyness and is hungry for female sexual interaction.
I'm already coming down from my peak. It's the sunlight, not the heat, that influences my tendency towards hyper-sexuality. I'm only bi-sexual at the very outskirts of my sexuality, but in spite of my extremely short ring finger which is indicative of low exposure to testosterone in the womb, I have a lot of juvenile masculine energy. I sometimes describe myself as being like a highly excitable gay boy bottom with a tendency towards pre-mature ejaculation trapped in an overtly mature female body. OTOH, my feminine functioning is much more mature than my masculine functioning, so I can also be very relaxed, calm, oldest sister or maternal in my energy. My youngest sister is very bi-sexual and used to style herself like a little punk and she thought it was the hugest compliment in the world when gay men would accidentally hit on her. Now, she totally styles herself femme-brainy (let her hair and her hips grow out a bit), and she has an older, very straight, Cuban boyfriend who looks like Antonio Banderas and she calls him Abuela.
It seems very few people deal with this polyamoury thing effortlessly without some form of jealousy/scepticism, and I think it's more common in women than in men.
GandK said: I think with men we tend to call it possessiveness
I agree with both of you. I think there is a level on which men are more accepting of polyamoury because, unlike many women, they are unable to deny their physiological desire to have sex with more than one person, BUT that does not mean they are accepting of females engaging in polyamorous behavior. There are, at least, three situations in which a man might be more accepting, or less possessive. The first would be in any situation in which they do not want to take on the responsibility or authority that would correspond with level of relationship that "possession" would require. The second situation would be one in which they wished to "possess", but also to "share." The third situation would be one in which they are self-aware that the manifestation of "freedom" by a female is what they find attractive or arousing.

sharansingh
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by sharansingh »

Cheating is not a way to make a good relationship. you should be open with your partner what you did and what you have.

wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood »

We had a great weekend. Miss Singapore spent some days and the 3 of us were in holiday mode and just hung out together mostly in the park. On Saturday we drunk and went out. Wife and Miss S dressed up and looked so sexy I wouldn't mind if we just stayed indoors. Upon entering the bar, I have never gotten so many looks from strangers before. I live in a country where people keep their comments/insults to themselves, and this was a night I appreciated that aspect of our culture. We were shameless. We mostly sat down and chatted, danced occasionally and had a drink. I was in paradise. I look right, there's a beautiful woman who wants to make out. I look left and theres another beautiful woman who also wants to make out. I was being smothered all evening, happily so. The bartender, who also happened to be gorgeous, winked and smiled at me. I don't think that has ever happened to me before. Did I just send out some serious alpha signals with my behaviour?

There is a nice dynamic between us 3. My wife gets more dominant than usual. Miss S has a dominant facade but is naturally very submissive. I enjoy being a bit of both and we seem to work smoothly together in all situations we've encountered. This fits well with my wife being "primary" and Miss S being number 2. I won't deny it, in a dream world I'd be married to both of them and play family all day long. But Miss S is young, single, smart and beautiful and this is likely just a fase in her life.

My colleague said something smart. Marriage is about eating and going to bed together. I wouldn't mind having two women for that.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

There's a word for you, and that word is S-P-O-I-L-E-D ;)

I am feeling a bit confused, like I have painted myself into a three-dimensional corner, with my practice of poly-amory at the moment. I am amusing myself with the notion that I am going to be like a modern-day female version of Travis McGee. I want to leave all my partners in objectively better shape when I leave them than they were in when I found them. Like when you go hiking in a public park and you pick up some garbage somebody else left behind, or if you donate some books to the library when you return the ones you borrowed, or if you help with a minor repair and send a bread and butter note when you are a house guest. However, if they feel like they are subjectively worse off because they no longer have as much of my time or attention as they desire then that is their problem. I do not belong to anybody except myself.

I think I am going to have to make the cut based on a ratio of (quality of sex)/(time I am bored in company because I am stuck in a room with a baseball game on etc. etc.) + (services/resources provided in support of my primary perma-culture mission.) And, I have to stop letting or de facto encouraging any of them to provide me with treats. I have to practice frowning rather than smiling when I hear the words "ice cream."

enigmaT120
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by enigmaT120 »

Mmmm, ice cream.

wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood »

As long as you don't have the mindset that you need to "fix" your partners, you should be fine.

I'm very spoiled, and had the best Sunday morning ever :) Woke up in between the two, with birds chattering outside and the sun shining on me through the bedroom window. We stayed there for a couple of hours before stumbling our way to the park to sunbathe. I'm not yet convinced that this day actually happened. I will use this thread as part of my diary. Miss S is coming back on Aug 7th and stay for a few days.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

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wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood »

How do you respond to them when they express interest in living together with you? In my situation, I'm married and living together with my partner, which I think makes things more complicated. Not complicated for us, but maybe for our partners. For example, Miss S is happily welcomed by both of us. But because we live together, it would feel weird for her to have a lasting/committing relationship with anyone of us. Had I or Megpie lived separately, she could have had some relationship with both of us.

An interesting side note is that Miss S has an older, rich manfriend in Singapore who happens to have paid for her travels and is happy that she is out there exploring the world. Apparently its not about sex for him, so I wonder what his deeper motive is. Company? Receiving care when he gets old? He's 45 now. Miss S loves him but can't see a lasting future together. This makes me want to suggest that she could keep him as a partner, but not restrict herself to him only. Yet she is convinced she either needs to choose him, or dump him and choose someone else.

What do you mean when you say your third partner probably wants to have sex with you "on primal level"? As opposed to what?

About standards, maybe you could ask yourself if you are justifying your caregiving behaviour by the fact that despite it all your standards are in sum being met, or is it the other way around? And, if this guys' sexual functioning is not meeting your standards and you start losing faith in him improving, there must clearly some other reasons apart from sex that you appreciate. Could you skip the sex and still keep the relationship intact and to your liking?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

wood said: How do you respond to them when they express interest in living together with you?
Well, since one currently lives with his wife and the other has not yet purchased a house post-divorce, these suggestions, although quite overt, remain in the realm of tentative. However, I have made it clear to both of them that my perma-culture project is my primary objective until 2022, and I greatly value my current level of independence.

An interesting side note is that Miss S has an older, rich manfriend in Singapore who happens to have paid for her travels and is happy that she is out there exploring the world. Apparently its not about sex for him, so I wonder what his deeper motive is. Company? Receiving care when he gets old? He's 45 now. Miss S loves him but can't see a lasting future together. This makes me want to suggest that she could keep him as a partner, but not restrict herself to him only. Yet she is convinced she either needs to choose him, or dump him and choose someone else.
This is coherent with my experience with both older men and men who are older. It's likely more along the lines that what he wants primarily is a certain form of companionship which is kind of like having a pet more than it is like having a partner. It is very common for older men to have two women in their lives, one vaguely in the role of "big sister" and the other in the role of "little sister.", but usually only one of these relationships is sexual, and the other is filled by a female relative or a friend. My family-of-origin-sibling-position-training makes me more suited for the "big sister" role, but my permanently child-like ENTP personality type makes me more suited for the "little sister" role, so I can flip-flop. Kind of depends on to what extent I would prefer to be respected vs. adored. For instance, when I was in a relationship with an older wealthy man who was still best friends and co-trust administer with his ex-wife/mother-of-his-3-adult-sons, there was an occasion over dinner when he said to me "I was discussing matters with ex-wife, and we agreed that maybe I ought to buy you a car.", and he didn't understand why I almost stabbed him with my fork. OTOH, in my opinion and experience, being stuck in a non-sexualized "big sister" role in relationship to a man you love sucks rocks even harder.
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fiby41
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by fiby41 »

To me, an open relationship means people close to me know that I am in a relationship.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Most people I know, including everybody from the ladies in my water aerobics class, and my adult children, and my ex-mother-in-law are aware of the fact that I am currently practicing polyamory and/or dating 3 men at the same time. My DS28 was born in the wrong century, so he has informed me that he would be happy to make the acquaintance of any of my gentlemen friends upon the occasion of my nuptials, but not prior. The ladies in water aerobics told me "You go girl. Represent!" Some of my partners are more circumspect in various ways, but that's their problem. I am sex positive and think everybody should bring their practice, whatever it is, out of the closet. One truism I've heard is "Everybody has a sex life, but not necessarily one you would like to share." Many people do not have nearly as vibrant of a sex life as they could have if they didn't keep it such a big secret.

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