Stuff --- A cluttered life

[FBeyer]

Thanks for the link jacob, I'll leave it open on the laptop for SO to stumble across, planting a subliminal seed of sorts...

Don't plant seeds, lead by example. I had no luck explaining the idea of decluttering to my SO. As soon as she experienced how much more space we suddenly had after 70 % of my stuff was gone, she was almost onboard as well. She still keeps memorabilia though. I'm very calloused about that, I toss it!

[Peanut]

@ego

The point I am trying to make is that if people have a choice, the vast majority will choose an abundance. And the reason more people don't live like Americans with our overflowing garages is because they can't afford to do so. Many people of the world are constrained by their lack of finances, not because they don't wish for more material items. Let's be honest about this upfront

Lots of people may not be making choices in their best interests--that's not surprising. Hyper consumerism makes people unhappy, studies have shown. Also poorer than they would be otherwise. And then of course there are the environmental costs, which should arguably matter most to those with kids.

There are also many kinds of abundance. Financial abundance and an abundance of free time are ignored by most people in favor of material abundance, mostly to their detriment.

[Peanut]

The second food clip was really interesting to me.

I forget many people only shop once a week or two, and how popular the Costco-type warehouses are. My theory on bulk buying and stockpiling is that you tend to use more of a thing and more wastefully than you would otherwise. If you have a ton of ice cream bars, they'll be eaten just because they're there. If you bought one box at a time, you'd likely eat then more slowly (saving the last couple for a while) and end up buying less over time (perhaps even reconsidering the wisdom of buying them at all after a while). That's good for your waistline and pocketbook. It's the same with supplies like toilet paper, dishwashing liquid, etc. A few people are vigilant about being efficient with every use, but many will only be that way with the last roll. With supplies Iike these you do save money buying in bulk, I admit.

Personally I just don't like a huge stash of anything in my cabinets. Mostly bare pleases me, although I'm not a <100 minimalist. Maybe <1000

[George the original one]

I've got clutter issues, but I'm still trying to imagine a life where you don't use the backyard...

[brighteye]

After watching the videos I can't wait to get home and get rid of some things, seeing cluttered spaces always has that effect on me. Mostly books I kept because I wanted to re-read before donating them. But I just realised they are a burden (both mentally and physically) and I have no desire to keep them any longer. But also some clothes, and a bunch of wine bottles that friends keep bringing when they visit us.
Being in a cluttered space, I feel I can't think or breathe, it is like my mind is weighed down.

[7Wannabe5]

Because I am an ENTP, I am rather obsessed with keeping my options open. There is a perspective where acquiring more stuff offers more options, and there is also a perspective where it offers fewer options. I am quite frugal and also quite the minimalist by Middle-aged Midwestern American Mom standards, yet I still am able to fulfill most of the functions traditionally assigned to that role very well. I don't think that frugality or conservation of resources/reducing footprint should limit anybody's ability to do what they want to do. It should just alter their practice of how they do it. So, I tend to think in terms of having a modular rather than minimalist lifestyle.

For instance, 4 things I might want to do this year could be "redecorate the bathroom", "hostess a large Thanksgiving gathering", " attend several musical theater performances" and "see the ancient apple groves of Russia." I don't think "Bah, Humbug. Enjoying a lovelier home, social hostessing, cultural events and interesting travel adventures are just for non-frugal people." I just try to think very hard about about how I can use what I already have, items and options that are available on the market for free or barter, and more time/skills/cleverness than money in coming up with a solution. Therefore, I would say that the minimal package of what I want to own would be the "tools" I find myself using time and time again in coming up with frugal solutions to doing whatever I want to do. Probably the most important practice is to match stuff/tools and desired activities with actual blocks of time on your calendar. For instance, I see right beside me several skeins of Honolulu Pink yarn with which I intended to knit myself some mittens, and it is now the beginning of February. These skeins of yarn represent either a failure of my ability to accurately predict "What I Want to Do" OR (this is the important part) just as likely, they represent an incidence of poor stuff-to-time management. It's not fair or rational for me to tell myself "You didn't really want to knit those mittens, and you will never do it, so you need to get rid of that yarn." because I wouldn't be accounting for the inertia in starting or re-starting or getting through the tough spots in any activity. So, instead of reflexively de-clutter-ing the yarn in alignment with the rules of clutter control, I will move the basket of yarn to the table by the television, and also make a note on my calendar. Going through the activity of matching your stuff up with the time on your calendar you intend to devote to using or maintaining it will naturally lead to the greatest level of utility/stuff for you. For instance, it might even be the case that in the moment of adding "change furnace filters" as bi-yearly pop-up on your calendar, you will discover that you no longer wish to be a home-owner.

[jacob]

For instance, it might even be the case that in the moment of adding "change furnace filters" as bi-yearly pop-up on your calendar, you will discover that you no longer wish to be a home-owner.

Ugh! Got me there. Ultimately, I suppose it comes down to whether one enjoys such activities. For example, I loathe the weekly summer reminder to mow the lawn (so I'm slowly replacing the lawn with vegetables), as well as the winter reminder the shovel the sidewalks. I even find myself entertaining sacrilegious thoughts like "maybe we should buy a condo instead" . Then there's the issue of "shit breaking all the time" which adds to it.

I don't have a calendar. I have a to-do list. It's currently 39 entries long. All but five entries are about stuff that either needs to be fixed, built, cleaned up, or cleaned out. None of them are technically critical meaning we've done just fine not doing them up until now. They're all on the "should"-level, e.g. "I should really add some trim to the dining room window because it doesn't have any" but they all clutter up mind-space, like physical stuff can clutter a room, if one notices it.

What I'm getting to is the famous Zuckerberg quote:

"Young people are just smarter," he said, with a straight face, according to VentureBeat. "Why are most chess masters under 30?" he asked. "I don't know...Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family."

I'm pretty sure that older people are generally smarter than their younger selves (unless they stagnated). I think the key factor in young performance is the simpler lives that results in near 100% focus. Whereas my focus is currently something like 5/39 or 13%.

And I mainly blame "stuff" for this.

[cmonkey]

"I should really add some trim to the dining room window because it doesn't have any."

I still haven't finished the trim in the kitchen from 5 years ago. Baseboard trim on the cabinets. Doing it by hand is a completely pain in the ass so I just never did it. Maybe now that I have more ...stuff (brad nailer)... it'll get done.

[JL13]

I even find myself entertaining sacrilegious thoughts like "maybe we should buy a condo instead"

Alright so out of
1.) old apartment
2.) RV
3.) Extreme fixer upper

Which way are you leaning now? Is there no peace to be had?

[jacob]

Cabin? Studio? Out of the three, I probably prefer the RV (except when it rains).

The fixer upper is not even that extreme. The main issue is that this is my first rodeo so to speak.

[cmonkey]

@jacob, what type of reno work are you doing?

[7Wannabe5]

jacob said: Ugh! Got me there. Ultimately, I suppose it comes down to whether one enjoys such activities.

lol. Yes and no. "Just clean it for a year." is the single best piece of advice I was ever offered and chose to ignore when I owned an extreme fixer-upper. Often stuff ends up in landfills or donation bins just because it requires the most basic maintenance. One thing I think about a lot is whether legal ownership or physical care better constitutes natural dominance or possession. IOW, to what extent can you claim something for which you do not care? You own a house. You make a home. There is only a limited amount of stuff we can afford to really invest with our time and our energy and our love. Every parent of young children has had the experience of being driven to the brink of insanity by their behavior. When that would happen to me, I would catch them and put them in the tub, dress them in clean pajamas and read them a book. Then I would be happy to have a life cluttered with kids again. I think the word I am grasping for is "alienating." It is depressing, confusing and alienating to have more stuff in your life than you can imbue with your spirit. I did a good deal of good work when I owned my fixer-upper, so sometimes I still have happy thoughts about sanding a surface smooth, building a wall, replacing a pane of glass, or even installing a toilet, but I seriously do not know if I am up to buying and renovating one of the many dilapidated foreclosures in my current neighborhood, just like I can't imagine being up to raising another family of children at my age.

[Did]

I'm over doing up our cottage. We have devoted over a year to the project on and off. That's it. It's done (almost). Next project please.

[JL13]

"Just clean it for a year." is the single best piece of advice I was ever offered and chose to ignore when I owned an extreme fixer-upper.

I can't even be bothered to clean my bicycle. I just wait for the dirt to be blown off by the wind or rinsed off by light rain. I can't imagine what it would be like to be responsible to clean an entire house.

I remember being really surprised to read how common maids are in South American. Even the maids use maids there! I wonder why it never really caught on in the US?

[7Wannabe5]

JL13 said: I remember being really surprised to read how common maids are in South American. Even the maids use maids there! I wonder why it never really caught on in the US?

I think it has varied in popularity. My father who was born in the 30s grew up in a household with a full-time maid and a stay-at-home mother. Today, most affluent women make use of a variety of services or domestic-end-products that weren't available back then. For instance, the modern equivalent of my grandmother would likely not have a full-time maid, but she would have a twice weekly cleaning service and easy ability to pick up dinner from the Whole Foods buffet on her way home from the salon or yoga studio. My mother was a terrible housekeeper, pretty much gave up on it completely when I was around 12, so I have an almost Dickensian-level sentimental attachment to the notion of the "goodness" of doing it for yourself, due to the memory of having to clean a very large, very, very messy (although impeccably furnished and decorated on one of her manic sprees) house all by myself if I wanted to invite a friend over to visit. My father couldn't even hire a maid because my mother would rage out at them. Recently, my mother who is now 75, temporarily lost some of her mobility, and started having a physical therapist and an occupational therapist come around for home visits. The occupational therapist became concerned because she clearly hadn't done her dishes for a few days. So, my sister and I had to drive over to my mother's apartment and get her caught up on her housework, even though we all knew that my mother ALWAYS lets her dishes pile up, and it had nothing to do with her current minor physical disability. Maddening.

[jacob]

@JL13 - It's my [perhaps erroneous] understanding that culturally speaking, in South American(*) countries, if you can afford it, you HAVE to hire help. It's a way of spreading the wealth. Doing some chore yourself when you have the money not to is frowned upon.

(*) That might be casting too wide a net.

[7Wannabe5]

This is definitely true in Tehran. However, most affluent, well-educated Iranian women are excellent homemakers themselves, so the fact that they also have a lot of help just serves to raise the expected standard. I really had to take my game up a notch when I started hostessing with my ex. Luckily, my Midwestern Rural Church-lady Potluck Persian Buffet Fusion Menu proved quite popular. Who doesn't like pickles and pie?

[Bankai]

Also, for me, minimalism is not just about not owning more stuff than I need. It's also about not taking ownership of other people's clutter (including their psychological clutter).

I've never thought about it this way (although I'm kinda practicing it anyway), thank you

[jacob]

@stoneage - http://www.amazon.com/Unstuff-Your-Life ... 1583333894 I'd recommend this one. I've been reading a bunch of minimalist/downsizing books lately and I think this one is good if the goal is to restore "normal operations". E.g. the book covers the transition from "I just bought a new hat because I forgot about the one that's been hidden under a pile of old jackets for two years now" to "If my hat not on my head, it is on the hook behind the closet door." It's also good for getting rid of "useless" collections like "I have these piles of old magazines that I'm going to get around to reading one day." The goal [of this book] is to only own what you're using and to know where to find that stuff when you need it. As such it's more of an organizational book. Here's the author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-nMDzccJwc

[BRUTE]

brute likes the general gist of that "Magic of Tidying up" book, even if it seems to be written for soccer moms. the gist being "why would brute own something he doesn't love owning". this is what brute has unconsciously doing for years, hence minimalism. there's only so much love to go around.