What do YOU want?

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OldPro
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by OldPro »

7w5, why did your comment, "or maybe the pleasure of my company over dinner", come as no surprise to me. Do you really need to include the fact that you are willing to trade yourself for some benefit, in every discussion?

C40, how do you know, "The worst that will happen to people 'fail' at ER/FI is that they go back to work. That's it. They aren't going to spend their last cent and become homelss. For most people here, even if they did spend all their money, they could get almost any job and cover their expenses. ERE'ers are possibly the least to end up homeless compared to any other group of people."

On what evidence/personal experience or knowledge do you base that statement? How many people have you met who failed at ER? I've met a dozen or so. Consider age alone. Suppose someone ERs at 30 and finds themselves in trouble at 70. What work is it you expect them to be able to go back to? I know that the chances of my being able to go back into the workforce at the kind of work I used to do are as close to zero as you could get. I suppose I might get a job as a Walmart greeter but I hear competition is stiff for those jobs with all the retirees who can't make ends meet. Sometimes I think that people posting here only think in the short term. Sure if you ER at 30 and need to go back to work at 35, it's quite likely you will be able to do so. Try it at 70. Sure if someone lives frugally they can get by on $6k per year, try earning it when you are no longer physically able to work though. What then? You will HOPEFULLY get older C40.

All I am saying is that if you plan to have more income than you need, you have a better chance of long term success. I have seen first hand what can happen to people who do not. That's real evidence even if anecdotal, not wishful thinking that, 'the wost that will happen is they go back to work.' A few years ago there was a post on a travel forum I frequent where a guy posted that after many years of travel and living in foreign countries, he found himself in a country broke and having to steal vegetables from farmer's fields to eat. He didn't plan on that happening but it did. He had no way to get the money to even return to his home country and go on welfare there. Did you know your Embassy will NOT pay to send you home in a case like that?

I can only guess that what really annoys yourself and others is the idea that if you need to plan for more income, it means you need to wait longer to ER and that thought isn't pleasant to contemplate. I understand ER better than most I would say C40. I've lived it for 26 years. I am pretty frugal and do not live beyond my means at all but I can envision very easily circumstances under which I could go broke quite quickly and be UNABLE to go back to work. I think my warning is quite realistic. I'm not saying you can guarantee 100% success but I am saying you can improve your odds by having more income than you need.

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C40
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by C40 »

I only made it through reading a couple sentences of your post. Since you're taking the all too common troll tactic of demanding evidence for the obvious, I'll ask you this: of all the people you know who retired early, what % of them ended up homeless?

Did
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by Did »

All sounds rather heated. I agree with OldPro that more is better. Of course it is. ERE (not ER) is just a tool, to me. It allows for an early exit and freedom, if you are skilled enough and that is what you want.

Many are not, or have other goals.

It also provides an intellectual framework and, through these forums, a support structure that helps you take big decisions about your time, career and assets that might otherwise seem impossible. At least for me they did.

OldPro may have had the opportunity, brains and times to sock away 3 times as much as he needed. I did not as it turns out. I was done. I may well have less cash than I need to live off the returns in every possible situation.

Luckily for me though, doing this has freed my time up and reduced my stress levels to the point where I would be happy to earn a bob or two in a way that suits.

As for being broke at 70, well I will cross that bridge when I come to it. And to be honest I think 70 year olds are better at needing little than 40 year olds, as they tend to be happy sitting in the one place. So an inability to earn at that stage should work out fine.

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C40
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by C40 »

Ok, I made it through your entire post.. The thing is, you're talking to people here like you think they are idiots.

Everyone here already understands that having a wider safety margin between income and spending means a higher success rate.

And, be nice to 7wanabe5 please. We like having her around here and I like hearing about her relationships and sexual adventures.

OldPro
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by OldPro »

A reasoned response Did and a more appropriate second response C40.

I would comment though Did that your expectations of what a 70 year old does or does not want to do or is capable of doing is not necessarily so. I need as much or more at 70 as I did at 40 and am not happy sitting in one place to any real appreciable degree greater than I was at 40. I would say that I am more intolerant of things like air travel though. ie. I now hate the thought of the airport hassle and having to sit in a plane to get somewhere. At 40 I was more tolerant about things like that. In fact, it's a good example of why a 70 year old may not need less money. Where at 40 I was willing to take some indirect route or sit through a couple of stopovers, I no longer am. I want A to B, direct, non-stop and am willing to pay more to get it. That same principle applies to other things as well.

I do agree we should all cross our bridges when we come to them and not before, but that does not mean we cannot try to plan to not have to cross certain bridges. I can assure you that the idea of going broke at 70 is far scarier to a 70 year old than it is to a 40 year old who sees that as the far distant future. You 'can't see there from here', as the saying goes, I can.

C40, I suppose I am showing my personal disgust with 7w5's personal preferences. I don't like hearing about how she sells sex for benefits. We can agree to disagree on that one. My mind just goes immediately to 'gold digger', no doubt influenced by previous personal experience during my earlier ER years. But to be fair, 7w5 may not be a gold digger at all. She may as she says enter in to mutually understood arrangements between adults. That of course just leaves me feeling pity for the men who need to enter into such arrangements to get sex. They justify themselves by saying the only difference between a wife who gets a diamond bracelet and a mistress, is the second is more honest about it.

7w5, stop hanging out with losers like that.

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Ego
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by Ego »

OldPro wrote:At 40 I was more tolerant about things like that. In fact, it's a good example of why a 70 year old may not need less money. Where at 40 I was willing to take some indirect route or sit through a couple of stopovers, I no longer am. I want A to B, direct, non-stop and am willing to pay more to get it. That same principle applies to other things as well.
Is it possible that the opposite might be true for other people? That is, while you've become more fragile as you age, might others use their years to exercise a wide variety of "muscles" that allow them to continually decrease their need for comfort and increase their tolerance of discomfort?

And if so, is it possible you became more fragile because you could? In other words, have you been spending your financial independence buying insulation from the very hardships and challenges that would have created the callouses and strengths needed to endure a less-insulated life? The example you gave above seems to indicate this is true, but I could be wrong.

Some look at aging and believe this is the inevitable result....
https://vimeo.com/142997373

I think not. And since the title of this thread is "What do YOU want?", I want not. I have some experience dealing with old people and my experiences backs up my beliefs. That is but one possible result. Not inevitable.

But, again, I could be wrong.

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C40
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by C40 »

@oldpro - I think I can speak for 7wb when I say that she is not trading sex for things. It sounds like she enjoys the sex every bit as much as they do. It also sounds like she only spends time with men who are fun for her to be around (mentally stimulating, good looking, in good shape, etc.). She's not spending time and having sex with men that she doesn't already want to. I agree with you that it is strange that so many men will "spend" so much money "on" women. I think doing that creates a strange dynamic where it seems like (and actually be true that) sex is something being traded for.

If the tables were turned - if there were a lot of women who wanted to have sex with me and buy me a bunch of things without expecting me to buy things for them, I would let it happen too.

(The forum has had actual sex workers as regular members, and has been 100% accepting of them)

Toska2
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by Toska2 »

I would rather risk intermittent work or return work in my 60's than become bitter in my 40's or institutionalized in my 50's. At the very least, right now I'd have 20+ years of healthy retirement. Heck, I would commit suicide if life became a burden as I would have lived a full and rich life.

YOU can plan for "forever", I'll plan for 70ish.

jacob
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by jacob »

Ultimately this may fit better in the privilege thread, but once we've collected our stash in such a typically conservative way that we're going to have more than we would ever want to spend, it comes to down to what we want that money can't buy.

This could be such things as love, passion, happiness, lack of physical discomfort, etc. but ultimately, this thread has made me realize that I'd rather aim the guarantee/preserve something more fundamental. Especially as I get older, I want to get ever closer to the following goals and not further away from them.

* I want to be able to quickly recognize when I'm surrounded by people smarter than me. This way I won't make a fool out of myself by continuing to act like a know-it-all.

* I want to have the empathy with people who are nicer than me even if I disagree with their behavior or values---especially when such have no relevance to my own life. This way I won't be acting like a jerk.

* I want to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it---I don't want to feel compelled to reject or ignore every concept I don't understand and obstinately insist on replacing them with my own. This way I might learn something new.

Dragline
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by Dragline »

jacob wrote: Especially as I get older, I want to get ever closer to the following goals and not further away from them.

* I want to be able to quickly recognize when I'm surrounded by people smarter than me. This way I won't make a fool out of myself by continuing to act like a know-it-all.

* I want to have the empathy with people who are nicer than me even if I disagree with their behavior or values---especially when such have no relevance to my own life. This way I won't be acting like a jerk.

* I want to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it---I don't want to feel compelled to reject or ignore every concept I don't understand and obstinately insist on replacing them with my own. This way I might learn something new.
Oooh, that's going straight into my journal as today's wisdom. Thanks.

cmonkey
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by cmonkey »

I agree, that is a nice list. Second ERE must be giving you time to reflect.

I probably have the opposite problem for number one, I generally don't speak up at all or downplay my own knowledge for fear of looking the fool. I have learned to just be content with thinking I know better as opposed to making my case. Giving off that silent, mysterious vibe that makes folks nervous. :P

BRUTE
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by BRUTE »

OldPro wrote:I suppose I am showing my personal disgust with 7w5's personal preferences. I don't like hearing about how she sells sex for benefits.
brute does not understand. humans barter their manual labor for food supplies and shelter all the time. what disgusts oldpro?
Last edited by BRUTE on Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Did
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by Did »

@oldPro I would like to have more passive income at 70. Of course some 70 year olds are fitter and more active than me now. I hope to be like them. Good thing for me though is I'm 41 so have several decades to work something out. And thanks to the ERE mind set I've structured my affairs so I'm free to do this in an adventurous, fun way, as my basic costs are covered.

As for lifestyle judgement, with respect as I often enjoy your perspective, if nothing else people here celebrate differences and lives lived in nonconventional ways, and it is only decent to be kind and not offensive to the individuals who choose to hang out here.

There are plenty of places on the net where you can go to have shreds torn off you. I for one would like to keep this place safe and not drive away the eclectic, considered bunch we have participating.

(it's the only forum I read or participate in for example)

Having said that, I do often enjoy your experience based perspective so please keep contributing.

7Wannabe5
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

OldPro said: Do you really need to include the fact that you are willing to trade yourself for some benefit, in every discussion?
I belong to a couple of other forums besides this one. One that I've participated in for over 10 years consists of a group of very intelligent, well-meaning individuals, much like the members of this forum, who are primarily concerned with the challenges or problems of sexuality and relationships, just like this forum is primarily concerned with the challenges of financial independence, finances and frugality. The two most read, recommended and debated texts on that forum would be "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch and "The Way of the Superior Man" by Deida. I often write off the top of my head after drinking too much coffee, so sometimes I write here as if everyone here has read these texts and understands the shorthand for their models, and vice-versa. People are acculturated to not talk openly about their finances, and they are also acculturated to not talk openly about their sex lives. So, when somebody (bad provocative ENTP me!) chooses to think and write openly about the intersection between these two topics, she risks offending sensibilities all over the internet- lol.

One thing you might bear in mind is that I am 50 years old ( add reading glasses, fret lines, squishy triceps and Mrs. Santa Claus hairdo to whatever picture you may have previously formed), and I was an early bloomer, so I've been on the dating market off-and-on for over 36 years now!! After my last major serious relationship break-up this past spring, I was almost convinced that I was ready to retire from the game completely. I was just hanging out in my garden in my droopy overalls trying to mind my own business, but the boys kept coming by, and called me back out for a couple more innings. Actually, that's not completely true, I've always had a very high sex drive and little ability to repress it. I tell myself "Don't go into the donut store, if you don't want to eat a donut.", but that doesn't work very well when the damnable donuts have their own motive force. One of my current lovers said "So how long did you last with your mid-life celibacy plan? I'm guessing maybe 3 weeks?" to which I responded "Ha,ha,ha. Very funny." and initiated another round by attempting to kick his ass out of bed. A real gold-digger would have to have such a very different personality type and sexual personae than mine, it is amusing for me to play-pretend-joke that I could be one. The notion is also laughable due to the fact that I only interact with intelligent, self-aware, dominant men who traded in their knickers for long pants, many, many moons ago.


So, I've never really directly traded my sexual favors for financial payment or even in overt barter, but I know a very intelligent, generous-spirited young woman, like forum member Riparian, who did make her living as a GFE (girlfriend experience escort), and one thing she told me was that men don't pay for the sex, they pay for the "pretty." Another friend of mine who is a man who was a very successful "player", told me that men don't pay for the sex, they pay for the woman to go away without fuss after the sex. I have also observed or experienced that there are a wide variety of other reasons why a man might choose to provide a woman with financial support beyond straight-forward sexual access. For instance, a man might have a very stressful job, so he appreciates coming home to somebody who doesn't have a stressful job herself, and is therefore able to provide him with "cool feminine" energy. Even within the limited scope of my current relationships, I am "used" and "appreciated" for providing this calm energy as well as sharing my store of "hot feminine" energy. I could go on and on in this vein on this topic, but I suggest that you read the two books I referenced above if you wish to engage in any intelligent conversation on the topic with me (or anyone.) I would also recommend "Talk Dirty to Me" by Sallie Tisdale, and "A Round-Heeled Woman" by Juska.

@C40 and others: Thanks for your kind support. You guys rock! BTW, I was just using the term "wrecking ball sex" to mean the kind of muscular, free-form wrestling-match-I-can't-even-hope-to-win-please-don't-pop-my-legs-out-of-their-sockets kind of encounter that renders me "wrecked." Both of my lovers are totally jacked for their age ;)

Carlos
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by Carlos »

C40 wrote:Ok, I made it through your entire post.. The thing is, you're talking to people here like you think they are idiots.

Everyone here already understands that having a wider safety margin between income and spending means a higher success rate.

.
This comment sums up much of my feelings regarding the warning and the original post. ER types tend to be compulsive planners and optimizers. We obsess over optimizing our cash flow and expenses (sometimes to the extreme :lol: ). Most save in excess of 50% of their income and over the course of many years demonstrate strong dedication to FI and self-reliance. For the past 8 years I've saved in excess of 50% of my income with my savings rate peaking at 89% last year.

This isn't to say that ER types are immune from the normal bad outcomes that come with life. I believe however that the ER personality is more adaptable and capable of overcoming adversity such that a warning of homelessness or becoming a bum is uncalled for. If Jacob lost his savings I have no doubt that he could figure out a way to feed and house himself and maintain his happiness.

After monitoring my expenses and cash flow for 10 years and demonstrating financial acumen and discipline would anyone believe that I would for example spend more than my income in an unplanned fashion such that I would find myself expectantly penniless at 70? Black swan events are a bigger worry for me.

I plan to spend down my capital because I do not have children and have no obligation to leave an inheritance. That's the plan at least but it's hard to switch from saving to spending. I will buy long term care insurance and probably an annuity to give myself some guaranteed income as a mortality hedge. Knowing my personality and reluctance to be extravagant with money I will probably start gifting my surplus to my nephews for college if they show themselves to be dedicated and responsible.
Last edited by Carlos on Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ego
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by Ego »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
OldPro said: Do you really need to include the fact that you are willing to trade yourself for some benefit, in every discussion?
I belong to a couple of other forums besides this one. One that I've participated in for over 10 years consists of a group of very intelligent, well-meaning individuals, much like the members of this forum, who are primarily concerned with the challenges or problems of sexuality and relationships, just like this forum is primarily concerned with the challenges of financial independence, finances and frugality....
I believe this is what is known as a teachable moment. Well done.

1taskaday
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by 1taskaday »

As I stated before 7Wannabe5 your lifestyle sounds blissful...
Oh to be that free and full of energy.

Just keep avoiding getting entrapped by the boring,aged "grumpy ol men",they really do require a lot of patience and care in their elder years.
You are living the dream...

(No offence meant to any members/readers of this forum who are naturally not boring).

George the original one
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by George the original one »

OldPro wrote:Sure if you ER at 30 and need to go back to work at 35, it's quite likely you will be able to do so. Try it at 70. Sure if someone lives frugally they can get by on $6k per year, try earning it when you are no longer physically able to work though. What then?
Even in the USA, social security will easily cover $6k/yr expenses. I'm pretty certain most of the "developed" nations have a minimum safety net of similar value for old folk.

"Oh, but social security will go away because not enough taxes to cover it." Projections suggest that even if USA social security isn't fixed, it will still pay 75% of current predictions. Assume 50% and we've got a comfort margin.

RealPerson
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by RealPerson »

George the original one wrote:
OldPro wrote:Sure if you ER at 30 and need to go back to work at 35, it's quite likely you will be able to do so. Try it at 70. Sure if someone lives frugally they can get by on $6k per year, try earning it when you are no longer physically able to work though. What then?
Even in the USA, social security will easily cover $6k/yr expenses. I'm pretty certain most of the "developed" nations have a minimum safety net of similar value for old folk.

"Oh, but social security will go away because not enough taxes to cover it." Projections suggest that even if USA social security isn't fixed, it will still pay 75% of current predictions. Assume 50% and we've got a comfort margin.
Also, since the biggest risk is the sequence risk, someone who retired at 30 will be aware of a sequence related problem at age 35 or 40. Plenty of time to make a course correction. This is not a surprise problem that pops up at age 69.5.

jacob
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Re: What do YOU want?

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote:I believe this is what is known as a teachable moment. Well done.
Indeed!

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