akratic's ERE journal

[Ego]

Apply the ERE methodology to it. AKA, where there is a will there is a way.

I know Mexican families who live in Tijuana and have their kids attending some of the best schools in the San Diego area. Legally*. They just plan ahead.

http://www.greatschools.org/find-a-scho ... s?page=all


*more or less.

[jacob]

Consider that going to a "good school" is a constraint in that it will come with a set of expectations, a culture etc that will get ingrained.

Culture is the keyword here. Education [in the sense of learning] has very little to do with it. Rather the purpose is to get attached to a specific culture: a specific way of talking, interacting, behaving, ... thus ensuring "a good fit". As Good Will says, the education can be had at the cost of a library card and 50 cents in late fees.

More interestingly, with the way that student loans and the whole college degree thing is going... are colleges still the place for this kind of connection 20-25 years from now? Will the ROI remain high? Clearly the ROI of a college education is already negative at the bottom---the kind of degrees that are advertised on public transit. How soon before it hits the middle---the kind that's advertised during football games---or the top---the kind that doesn't need advertising?

Personally, I cringe every time I hear the "s/he went to a good school". Then again, I don't represent money ;-P

Even more interestingly, the tendency to establish pedigree via a college education is nowhere stronger than in the US. From a Euro-perspective(*) it's not like we're not buying into it. However, those with some exposure to the students of "elite" US universities tend to be disappointed that they're not the supermen that legend has. Rather, they have the exact same distribution of geniuses and bores as everybody else. This is due to the specific problem in that universities mostly selects for rather than teach intelligence and creativity. Hence, "if you're smart enough to get in, you probably don't need to go". Which gets me to my ultimate point [which has been made already by JasonR]... what's the likelihood of the kids being smart enough to get in by their talents alone? Take the average of you and your SO's IQ(**) and go halfway to 100, this will give you the expected IQ of the child. E[kid IQ]=((you+SO)/2+100)/2.Is that good enough for MIT? If not, is the hope then to buy the prospects ala cat 1 hoping that the kid will friend some monied interests? That's really playing the odds because it's hard to know the unborn. In particular in this case, the kid might object to that game. E.g. they might want to "become a writer instead of joining Starfleet".

(*) I'd be interested in the Asian perspective on elite-ed. PM me.
(**) When I say IQ I just use it as a proxy for the combined level of talents.
To reiterate. I think you're overplanning because a lot of this is really outside your control. Kids tend to become their own humans. (A major reason why I don't want kids is that I don't enjoy the company of most humans, so the odds are bad for me.) A better question would be: Suppose on the off-chance that the kid(s) is really talented and want to go to MIT, football camp, garage startup, NASA academy ... will you have the "means" to support that wish. Personally, I worry a lot more about a lack of connections than a lack of money.

[mxlr650]

It's funny, as hard as I fought to avoid the American Dream and the typical insatiable appetite for money, I seem to be getting sucked back into a fairly typical course in life. All of this is still a few years out, and who knows what could change in the meantime, but at the moment it feels kind of inevitable.

Unless you are willing to reconsider your choices (wanting kids, walking neighborhoods, public schools, top universities) I am not sure why you seem to have an ideological mind block about making good money and having a steady job that can help you build assets. What is wrong with that? How would that be anyway inferior to post-FI ERE life if you enjoy your work? Its not that you are planning to lead a typical mindless consumeristic lifestyle, but somehow it seems to me that you are seeking the forum validation. Just because a forum is good for one topic, it doesn’t mean they are good for others – especially something related to your aspirations/dreams involving kids which invariably needs a leap of faith. Even if the kid is borderline stupid, it helps for that kid to be around intelligent/hardworking kids.

If bayarea is an example, most parents who want to give good education to their kids will chose Cupertino (or Palo Alto). Obviously house prices are exorbitant there, and few of the wise ones stay in SJC or nearby for few years and when kids are ready for school, they buy houses there. Even when house prices fell 50% around here in 2008, prices hardly fell in Cupertino. So may be you can move to Boston suburb, build up assets, so you will be ready when your kids are ready for school. There is way more parental participation in good public schools compared to even the best private schools, so the usual economic argument of moving to lower home price neighborhood is not very robust one.

That JKR video is like, WTF? I have nothing personal against her, but she is portraying her irresponsible adult days as “failure” instead of “mindless stupidity”; and she seems to be projecting her commercial success as something very inspirational. If someone wants to lead a cautious life, why would it be a failure Ms. JKR? Anyway, this is one danger of bringing in speakers who are known in certain accomplishments to comment on something totally different.

[C40]

I read Malcom Gladwell's latest book David and Goliath recently, and it has relevancy to this school subject. Have you read it?

He talks a lot about differences between being a big fish in a little pond and a little fish in a big pond. About how those situations can create a differences in a student's confidence and perceived chance of success.

I've attended schools that are both big ponds and little ponds, and I found some truth in what he was saying. I would guess that for you, as long as you grew up in a reasonable situation in the U.S., you would have ended up making good money (over $100k by your late 20s). Maybe you wouldn't have ended up with connections that would enable you to get a new job within very easily (I remember you mentioning your confidence you could get a (good) job within a week)

Anyways - my own experience:
- I went to a number of different schools in my youth so the quality of one specific school probably didn't have a huge impact on me. However, in high school, I went to one school for three years and a different school my junior year. The school I went to my junior year was a big school with much better teachers than the other. I wasn't used to doing much homework outside of school and I didn't increase the time I spent on it (I was working instead). I took normal to slightly high-level courses and got mediocre grades. This situation did not instill confidence in me at all. Also, I missed my old friends and wasn't very comfortable there socially.

I went back to my original high school my senior year with my old friends, comfortable area, and easy classes. I got straight As my senior year and decided to study engineering at university. If I'd have stayed at the big and challenging school, I there's a very good chance I would've studied some crap (no offense anyone) major like graphic art or business. Of course, this is N=1. Your experience is different than mine. And your income potential is higher than mine. But knowing what you know about money and happiness, how much is that bump in income potential really worth?

You could (and maybe already are) guess at the chances of income potential vs. quality of schools. Say, maybe:

Chance of your child ever making over $100k per year (in today's $)
- Normal high school: 10%
- Elite high school: 25%

Over $250,000 per year:
- Normal high school: 1%
- High-end high school: 4%

(I'm completely guessing / making these up)

It's up to you to decide how much those chances are worth to you.. and how much the school matters vs. everything else that you can control. Then - how much could you chance those numbers by being a good parent?

[akratic]

@C40: funny, my girlfriend was quoting that exact section of Gladwell's book while arguing we didn't need to/want to live in such a fancy town. (We listened to the audio version of the book on our last road trip.)

@Ego: my high school sweetheart was school choice, so I am familiar with the advantages, but living in a separate town from your friends and peers also comes with a number of downsides in terms of spontaneous interactions and connections etc.

@jacob/henrik/mxlr/everyone: you guys have given me a lot to think about, and I'm afraid I don't have a quick answer to anything else. Fortunately I've got a *lot* of time to ponder this stuff. I think you guys do have good points, but at the same time I guess I still think the best thing I could offer future children would be: 1) to let them grow up with good schools while 2) being supportive of whatever path they choose. Maybe after I think about it more I'll have a more sophisticated response. I do appreciate your comments and wish I could do them more justice.

[1taskaday]

This is a fascinating issue to read.

Annoying really when "real-life" as regards to close-ones or “potential” close-ones futures could possibly be affected by one's “ERE”philosphey.

This is when it goes from being black and white to messy or grey....

[Ego]

Apply the ERE methodology to it. AKA, where there is a will there is a way.

I know Mexican families who live in Tijuana and have their kids attending some of the best schools in the San Diego area. Legally*. They just plan ahead.

http://www.greatschools.org/find-a-scho ... s?page=all


*more or less.

@Ego: my high school sweetheart was school choice, so I am familiar with the advantages, but living in a separate town from your friends and peers also comes with a number of downsides in terms of spontaneous interactions and connections etc.

How much are you willing to pay to eliminate that downside? Might there also be benefits to being an outsider?

[theanimal]

Setting them up for a great life by giving them the best of all possible worlds is a noble sentiment but what if your crap-factory of a child wants to grow up and be like theanimal and poop in the woods for a living? You've done hypothetical kid a great disservice by forcing it to live under your constraints. It's tough to plan your kid's life when it doesn't exist.

I think this is a powerful statement. Although personally I was late to the game in that I didn't realize I wanted to pursue this lifestyle until age 19. Before that I followed the traditional educational model and received a relatively high education. With that said, once I realized what I wanted, I didn't want anything to do with school or the traditional system at all. Luckily I found a way to graduate early.

Along with the others, I think you may be doing yourself a disservice by planning so far in advance. There are so many alternatives to the standard lifestyle in today's environment and you have a big chunk of time still ahead of you before you actually have to make a decision. I'm surprised nobody has brought up homeschooling. Anyways, I tend to think skills are (or at least can be) more valuable than connections.

[5to9]

I think that living near family while raising little ones can be a big benefit. But keep in mind that you have a few years after they arrive before worrying about school districts. This is an important point not just In the sense of deferring the choice, but because it wouldn't be surprising to find you have a very different set of criteria at that point. I know it changed me very significantly.

[jacob]

WRT educational "opportunities" ...
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5486

[Barlotti]

It seems to me like you miss Boston and that perhaps you miss MIT. Putting aside the hypothetical kids, maybe that's good enough reason to move here. But should you wish to continue your footloose and fancy free lifestyle and feel like your kids have a reasonable chance of getting into MIT, you may find the following interesting.

I grew up in a po dunk town in a mountain state, went to a party school eight miles from home, and got into MIT, which I loved and love to this day (so I understand why you might want your kids to go there). I think it was easier for me to get into MIT because I was a big fish in the small pond that said party school was. Let's also consider the experience of a graduate school friend who went to a state university in the town where her dad (who was, ahem, a *little* angry) worked the assembly line in an auto factory. That friend is now a Harvard professor. And then there's the graduate school friend, first in his family to complete college, who grew up in rural poverty, which frankly seems pretty damn bleak, who is now a professor. Or how about the graduate school friend who grew up in a Florida trailer park in trailer park poverty, which also seems pretty damn bleak, who is now a professor at Cambridge University, UK. And then there's that MIT graduate student in aerospace engineering who was so thrilled about his research project with NASA. His parents were migrant farm workers in California's central valley.

In my experience, MIT was and is filled with people who didn't have many advantages, but got into MIT on account of their resilience, adaptability, charisma, and intelligence. What I loved and still love about MIT is that MIT teaches by example, you can bend the rules and change the world if you use your smarts. Doesn't matter "who you are" (or aren't) or where you come from...

[Legthorn Brownboat]

It’s been helpful to see your journey. I’ve just read your entire journal from front to back (it’s a doozy), and I found so many nuggets of gold that I want to thank you for sharing.

Your post and linked material on authentic happiness (pleasure vs flow vs meaning) gave me a lot to think about. I think I might explore this a lot further, thanks for the tip! Did you ever read or investigate further than the TED talk? I think the speaker has a book on the subject.

You mentioned carrying out a wine tasting experiment to see if your friends could tell the difference between cheap and expensive wines. What was the outcome?

I played your Unity game. I seem to recall there being a minotaur instead of a robot… How are the games coming along?

I enjoyed your 3 paragraph treatise on playing video games. They are mastery in easy-mode, thus you get the high assuredness but struggle with the pointlessness of it all more. I guess other masteries could be considered pointless in other reasons, but they’re a little harder to shoot down. If you have any more insights in this area, due to your extra time to play and philosophize, please by all means share them!

Your horror story about 401k conversion to Roth IRA conversion is beneficial to hear, and helps me if I am ever in the situation. I think I’ll trade a little extra paperwork to avoid excessive taxes. I figure that if, post-FI, I ever have low-income years, then I’ll have the opportunity to roll over more. If I never have low-income years, then I’m doing pretty well for myself!

Your story of the 3 rich people for whom money hurt their lives, and the 1 for whom it enhanced theirs is interesting. The quote “If you are more fortunate than others, it's better to build a longer table than a taller fence” is inspiring. Thank you for sharing that, I feel like you’ve distilled a portion of your revelation to provide benefit to myself. I also enjoyed reading about your house-sitting and your thoughts on the American dream and family. You’re a few years ahead of me in life, and I’m benefiting from the discoveries and lessons you learned.

I resonate with your struggles with the inner-drive, which is responsible for success but also continual dissatisfaction. For you it seems to be a goal-focused hedonic adaptation, where each achievement must be more satisfying/impressive/lasting than the last. For me it’s a torment as I always know that I could/should of done more, and that no matter the extent to which I attain mastery, there's always a higher level that I stopped short of. I’m also looking forward to fatherhood as maybe a way to bump up the meaning portion of the pleasure-flow-meaning trichotomy.

In regards to you re-entering the cave in order to afford Boston. If you did, I wouldn’t think that you’ve somehow failed FI, or that you must slave away to reach the same relative level of FI as you are now. You’d have confidence that no matter what, you could find *some* way to make ends meet. A part-time job that barely makes ends meet, while not depleting your FI stash, could be perfectly acceptable. Who knows, maybe Boston isn’t a deal breaker. I’d re-iterate what others said about questioning the need for the best. Life at a top 1% school (as opposed to a top 0.1% school) offers more chances to rise above your peers, while still full of opportunities. The likewise extends to top 10% etc, but always with tradeoffs. Having a tiny bit of a journey to acquire the knowledge you want can be instill wisdom alongside the knowledge itself. By wisdom I mean “character” or even the skill of seeking out knowledge that isn’t readily handed to you. I remember the thrill of knowing something (e.g. computers) that your peers or even the adults around you didn't know to nearly the same depth.

Sorry to hijack, back to you, good luck on (and please continue to chronicle) your journey through your 30s!

[akratic]

Wow, quite the comment Legthorn Brownboat!

I haven't read more on pleasure vs flow vs meaning, but I do regularly consider all three categories in my decision making.

For the wine tasting, here was the group blind preference in order of most-liked to least-liked: $20 bottle, tie between box and $100 bottle, $10 bottle, $40 bottle, $3 bottle. I'll probably do the experiment again when we eventually move to Boston and become intentional about rebuilding our friend network.

I stalled out on creating a game when I realized I didn't have a particularly good idea. I'm also a little discouraged by the predominant way to make money from gaming these days (micro-transactions) being so unfriendly to users (see the South Park s18e06 : Freemium isn't Free).

I like how you paraphrased gaming as mastery in easy-mode with high assuredness but pointlessness. My thinking hasn't evolved too much. Recently I'm struggling with the following: if it's something I enjoy, and isn't hurting anyone else... why not? The main counter arguments I've seen are either
1) do things better for yourself in the long term, such as taking up training for a triathlon, etc
2) do things that help others
So I've seen people propose better uses of time, but I haven't seen a compelling argument that something you enjoy that doesn't hurt anyone is actually a bad use of time.

I think I answered most of your questions, and I wanted to let you know that I appreciated your comments, and other people's comments, as well, even if I don't find time to comment on all aspects of them. It's connecting with people like yourself that brings me back to the ERE forums.

[akratic]

After house sitting in France, we were tourists in Spain for a couple of weeks, then spent Thanksgiving with my family in Massachusetts and Christmas with my girlfriend's family in New York. Between the holidays we spent two weeks with my smart, frugal, and introverted Aunt up in Maine -- she's become quite lonely after losing her life partner two years ago.

The only significant changes to my finances are as follows:
- I got my first smart phone: the $100 upfront then $10/mo offering from Republic Wireless.
- I finally went through the trouble of moving my US address from Illinois (where I last had a job/apt) to Massachusetts (where my parents live). As a result of the move, my healthcare costs dropped to $0/mo, because at my income level the tax credit is more than the monthly cost of insurance. I feel a bit guilty getting healthcare for free, subsidized by other people paying more than their fair share. I guess I didn't make the rules though, and I've spent plenty of time on the other side of the deal.

We had been thinking about going to Colombia for January to March, but we hatched a new plan a few days ago: ski bums. A pass for unlimited skiing on weekdays for the rest of the winter is $529, so now we just need to acquire skis, boots, poles, and most importantly, housing near a ski mountain for a reasonable cost. The gear should be easy enough to find used on craigslist, but we're struggling to find a good deal on housing.

[akratic]

Operation ski bum is underway. We moved to Maine last week and have gone skiing three days so far. My legs are so sore that I can barely walk.

Here are the numbers for reference:
- $600/mo (each) for furnished 3br/1ba house + all utilities including internet, 10 minute drive from ski lodge
- $529 unlimited midweek season lift pass (monday-friday, no weekends or holidays)
- $364 for gear, detailed below:
------------------
- $100 used skis
- $65 used boots
- $20 used poles
- $50 new long underwear (heavy duty)
- $20 new wool ski socks
- $109 new ski helmet

The house and used stuff was from craigslist, the skis were from a friend, and the socks, long underwear and helmet I paid full retail price for. Across the 10 weeks, the pass and gear amortize to $357/mo, combine that $600/mo rent and say $240/mo food + gas + misc, and the last minute ski adventure should cost me about $1.2k/mo.

Having the resources to hatch an idea like this and then be doing it a couple of weeks later is pretty neat.

[theanimal]

That sure sounds like fun. Your legs are going to be in great shape for the AT!

[C40]

Awesome. Totally awesome

[mmoyborgen]

Wow - that's so cool. I remember living in New England as an AmeriCorps member and feeling sad I wasn't able to take up skiing/snowboarding/snowshoeing or some other winter sport.

Enjoy!

[akratic]

No matter how much we shake things up, routine seems to find us pretty quickly.

This routine involves skiing four days a week, avoiding crowded weekends as well as the seemingly weekly blizzard. My quads are often sore and have been growing. We are just recently venturing onto black advanced trails, having spent most of our time on blue intermediate trails.

Outside of skiing, we have been cooking often. I cook granola (oats, honey, vegetable oil, brown sugar, vanilla) for breakfast every day. My girlfriend cooks snacks, both healthy cookies (oats, bananas, chopped walnuts) and granola bars (oats, peanut butter, honey, almonds, craisins, chocolate chips). My girlfriend has also developed a fascination with the crockpot in our rental house, cooking pulled pork, shredded chicken, chili, and various soups for dinner. We have spent zero dollars at the ski lodge, and been to zero restaurants and zero bars, which makes us quite unusual ski bums. Our skill at creating food geared to our tastes is reaching a level where to eat at a restaurant would be nothing short of a sacrifice.

Other than that we watch about 1.5 hours of Netflix together a day and spend inordinate amounts of time on our laptops. Sometimes my laptop time is vaguely productive, such as time spent learning about tiny houses (I liked the hOMe and then the Minim) and then learning the free 3D modeling program called Sketchup. Another somewhat productive thing I did is finalize my AT 2015 gear list and order the tent, quilt, and backpack. Often times, however, the laptop time is entirely wasted. I think I had it in my head that I would relax "for a while" and then be on to great things, but it seems my capacity for relaxation is infinite, and that the great things may never come.

[anomie]

Heya Akratic -

We watched Wild(2014) recently. Good flick about hiking the Pacific Crest Trail. Could be inspiration for your AT trip. Good luck!