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Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:31 pm
by 7Wannabe5
@tommytebco:

Gotcha. I think the answer is "luckier" more than "smarter" because it can happen within the experience of one individual at about the same frequency as within the general population. As a very high drive female, my experience is sort of revealing of other more often hidden market realities, because on more than one occasion I have received a good deal of financial support from a monogamous male partner with a much lower sex drive than me. So, it's like I was getting paid for tolerating less sex and more sexual rejection than I prefer. They mostly just want me for cook, cuddle-buddy, conversation, companionship or cover ??? Blech.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:08 pm
by tommytebco
and
What is BATNA an acronym for?? Someone make me feel stupid!!

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:55 pm
by 7Wannabe5
Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement

Also, legality of "in-kind swap" means it is legal to swap sex for sex. However, no contract in which one party offers "affection' is legally valid, including offer of sex swap. IOW, if you perform a sexual favor for someone with understanding that they will perform the same (or similar)sexual favor for you, the courts will not offer aid in enforcement of this contract. Modern standard marriage contract does not require performance, and you can't write an enforceable pre-nup that would include penalty on that basis. However, I think this is a moot point, since I personally know of at least 3 examples of a wife "turning back to her husband" in a culture that does promote/enforce performance. In one case, the wife was literally a 39 year old virgin, who still liked boy bands, at the time of her marriage. World is a weird place.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:07 pm
by tommytebco
Thank you. I continue to live and learn.
Batna sounded racier before I knew.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:33 pm
by Riggerjack
Once again, it falls on me to be different. When I met my wife, she had transitioned from long haul trucker to local courier, making decent, but less money than I. As is my habit, I then made this worse, by talking her into taking an entry level position where I work. The pay was so bad, she got an unscheduled raise when minimum wage went higher than she was getting paid...

So, we split the bills to match take home pay. My take home at that time was about 3x hers,so I covered a 75/25% split to start. As she got raises, we just transitioned to pooling funds, and spending as normal.

This allows all the pay from OT/call outs to go to the working partner, and no oppressive costs for the lower earner. Still not totally fair, but more fair. Now, she makes what i do, to the penny, and the funds are pooled. But when money is scarce, having it more scarce for one partner is adding stress where none needs to be.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:16 pm
by BlueNote
@riggerjack: That's the sort of micro socialism that keeps successful marriages purring along IMHO.

Marriage is communion (it's more like communism then capitalism) and a successful one requires deep commitment and compatibility. A lot of ERE people seem to really hate the idea of marriage because of the financial risks (which are real!). However to me that's like hating sex because you might get an STD, if carried out correctly you can be very confident in avoiding the risks associated with those choices. Get life partner selection right and it'll make ERE easier, get it wrong and it'll make it much more difficult.

A mate who is actively working against an early retirement would be like kryptonite to ERE. Is there anyone on this forum who has a spouse who is working against their ERE plans? Answer is probably no or the respondent is new to the forums and spouse hasn't had enough time to kill the dream yet. A committed and compatible mate should be able to grok and support ERE/FIRE given enough time and knowledge.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:24 pm
by BRUTE
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:16 am
First attention will be given to direct instructions from BRUTE with time remaining given to creative attempts to care for BRUTE better than he knows how to care for himself.
sounds like the biggest cost of this arrangement isn't financial. now brute has to live and direct the lives of two individual entities! ugh. it's hard enough to waste one life.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:38 am
by 7Wannabe5
BRUTE said: sounds like the biggest cost of this arrangement isn't financial. now brute has to live and direct the lives of two individual entities! ugh. it's hard enough to waste one life.
By Jove, I think he's got it!

The male-led relationship model achieves equilibrium through the trade of leadership (not money!!!although some men are more or less inclined to evoke money as signal of power) on the part of the male for the higher value of female sexuality on the open market. Riggerjack offered an almost textbook example above. He assumed authority and gave his wife the instruction to change jobs which caused her some expense in earnings, so he accepted the responsibility of covering the difference for the time being. She may very well have fretted a bit about following this instruction, but she chose to match the risk he took with his confidence in his decision-making with an equal and opposite (complementary) risk in trust. It's this element of risk that keeps a relationship from slowly slumping together into the center of the cozy couch in an undifferentiated comfortable equilibrium of bed-death or the alternate of armed stockade construction down the center of the living room.

The classic example is the excitement generated by a daring dip in ballroom dance. The lead must exhibit robust strength and confidence, and the follow must exhibit flexible strength and trust. The partners hold equal power and are able to move freely from separate balanced stable individual pose to complementary polar balanced yet unstable pose exhibiting the ability to withstand greater tension.

Strict division of finances may not always be an example of err on the side of stockade building, but it does rather give off that smell. Since my whimsical, arrogant hypothesis about the INTJ type (to the best of my knowledge, I have never actually been in relationship or bed with one, but I have definitely dated ENTJ and INFJ) is to stereotype sexuality as "locked dominant", this would be a predictable error in judgment. Also explains why the dating thread on this forum is dead as a door nail. Mutual tower of mastery admiration society with nobody likely to let down their golden hair ;)

Anyways, back to "how do you solve a problem like BRU (ooh) UTE" (and my movie musical theme for this post.) BRUTE does not believe that he has a PURPOSE. Yet, it seems to be the case that BRUTE does have some TRUTH(s) and some GOAL(s.) So, probably he does have a PURPOSE. According to Tariq Nasheed, author of "The Art of Mackin", although it is true that "p*ssy is gold", a man who comprehends how to mack will seek to find the female who will behave in alignment with best furthering his purpose. This is NOT the same as endeavoring to find a female with the same purpose, and definitely not the same as endeavoring to find a female with the same goals, but it does mean that you should try to find a partner who holds the same ultimate truth.

Some may disagree, but it does not seem to me that ERE is a purpose. That would be like saying that Calculus is a purpose. It is a METHOD that can be applied to different purposes. OTOH, for example, "Conservation of Resources" is a purpose shared by many individuals who choose to apply the method of ERE. "It is a sin to be wasteful." is getting closer to an underlying truth, but it needs to be expressed from a perspective of love. For instance, if you deeply rue the transformation of limited supplies of petroleum into plastic objects that are easily broken and very quickly thrown into a waste bin, you are simultaneously expressing value or love for something else the energy held in that petroleum could have been used or reserved to create or preserve.

So, if the partner of the woman who wrote the letter loves her and sees something of value in her character, he needs to come out from behind his stockade and make the effort to clearly express to her what he fears will be lost through her wasteful behavior. If he has a dream of fulfilling a purpose, he needs to make himself vulnerable by revealing his hopes or plans, even if he risks having them stomped, dismissed and ridiculed. Otherwise, his fear will continue to increase her fear to the extent she is opening herself to the possibilities of relationship with him.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:20 pm
by BRUTE
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:38 am
The male-led relationship model achieves equilibrium through the trade of leadership (not money!!!although some men are more or less inclined to evoke money as signal of power) on the part of the male for the higher value of female sexuality on the open market.
reminds brute of the old adage that prostitutes don't get paid for the sex, they get paid to leave. the intricate social charade that is relationships seems to brute like a virus hijacking some humans that suffer from hormonal imbalances.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:53 pm
by 7Wannabe5
Well, perhaps you should also bear in mind that...
It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.
Ta, ta... I must be off to lather and rinse this month's box of Blue Hair Matron #5.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:02 am
by Seppia
Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:33 pm
Once again, it falls on me to be different. When I met my wife, she had transitioned from long haul trucker to local courier, making decent, but less money than I. As is my habit, I then made this worse, by talking her into taking an entry level position where I work. The pay was so bad, she got an unscheduled raise when minimum wage went higher than she was getting paid...

So, we split the bills to match take home pay. My take home at that time was about 3x hers,so I covered a 75/25% split to start. As she got raises, we just transitioned to pooling funds, and spending as normal.

This allows all the pay from OT/call outs to go to the working partner, and no oppressive costs for the lower earner. Still not totally fair, but more fair. Now, she makes what i do, to the penny, and the funds are pooled. But when money is scarce, having it more scarce for one partner is adding stress where none needs to be.
This is what my wife and I were doing when we first moved to NYC from Europe.
I made a decent NYC salary, she made a decent Italian salary.
If we had split 50/50 she (very frugal person) would have been able to save very very little.
My wife offered to split 50/50, but I decided that we would pay rent (largest expense by a mile) based on income, and the rest of the bills 50/50
Now we moved back to italy, and even if there's still a difference in salary, we can both easily afford to pay most expenses 50/50 (I pay slightly more as I always pick up the bill the few times we eat out, most of the groceries etc) so that's what we do now.

My negativity about the article is that she DEMANDS/EXPECTS him to pay more, which is not the standard agreement.

To me, ithe issue is in the attidude

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:43 am
by BRUTE
does the fact that aforementioned human male hasn't paid down her debt potentially mean she is not marriage material?

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:10 am
by slsdly
In Ontario, there is no automatic property division with a common-law partner in the event of a split. But we do have something called "unjust enrichment" from which one partner can extract resources from another -- there are a few conditions you have to fulfill, but with such asymmetric earning power, I could at least 1 and possibly all conditions being met.

Thus I would consider taking the unusual position of *myself* paying the *greater* of shared expenses relative to proportional earning power, and splitting 50-50. While I pay more no matter what, it is for very non-traditional reasons: it makes it more difficult to argue I was enriched materially as a result of my partner's contributions. Minimize risk to capital wrapped in a false gentleman's cloak?

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:24 am
by batbatmanne
It is not mentioned what sort of lifestyle the frugal boyfriend in the story lives, or what her lifestyle is. This is an extremely important factor imo. There is something to be said for the opportunity cost of the relationship that is nicely highlighted by 7W5's suggestion that her partner move into her camper and by Riggerjack's unequal expenses after his partner took a pay cut in order to move for the sake of their relationship. The idea of equality is all well and good, but if the partner with greater resources expects to go 50/50 on lifestyle costs that are inflated compared to what the partner with less would otherwise spend then it seems fair to expect some kind of subsidy on their part (if this difference in personal values is at all reconcilable with money). Actually, I'm not even positive that who has the greater assets is much of a determining factor in this regard above and beyond financial stability. In the case of the article, though, one partner has a nice little nest egg and a fairly established lifestyle while the other is in debt and has no savings whatsoever, and it's still not clear who has the higher lifestyle expenses/expectations and by how much. It's not hard to imagine that a partner who wishes to drive a slightly nicer car, live in a slightly nicer place, go to restaurants more frequently and/or take an annual trip might pay for some or all of the added expenses this would incur on the less interested or less well off partner. A lifestyle subsidy of this sort seems like it can work quite well. A relationship between a boglehead and a van dwelling EREer seems like a less amicable one unless the boglehead is willing to pay for everything with no expectations of financial reciprocation.

If the situation described in the article is reconcilable at all, they should sit down and work out a budget and life plan for her so that she can get out of debt and build up some emergency savings, and also so that she can establish a baseline lifestyle that they could use to work out a reasonable sum for her contribution to the shared living space. Rather than thinking about a ratio of expense sharing, it's probably better to think about how much she would pay for a similar arrangement (roommate in a similar size/place), should such an arrangement be a reasonable alternative for her. If she would live in an altogether different arrangement left to her own devices then perhaps he should sweeten the deal for her both as a lifestyle subsidy and as a gesture of good will.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:27 pm
by 7Wannabe5
batbatmane wrote:A relationship between a boglehead and a van dwelling EREer seems like a less amicable one unless the boglehead is willing to pay for everything with no expectations of financial reciprocation.
You might be surprised. I agree with you, but IME, having been in relationship with quite a few men who have much more money, and also higher lifestyle expenses/expectations than me, the boglehead will be willing to pay for everything. Of course, this is in part due to the fact that although I value frugal lifestyle, I also have been largely choosing to follow male-led relationship model in the 10 years since the dissolution of my sex-dead egalitarian marriage. So, the sort of thing that happens would be typified by the occasion on which a waitress became incensed with my BF on my behalf, because he requested only one menu, and ordered for both of us without even seeming to give my preferences a bit of consideration.

I never pursue men beyond the level of mild flirtation. I never offer them terms, and then try to negotiate a deal. So, they are always motivated to make offer of contract at level they believe to be fair and likely to find acceptance. Keeps their focus on the real competition (other men) and renders my relationships quite amicable and mutually beneficial. So, if I was the female being offered the 50/50 deal as above, I would only take it if it was less than or equal to other opportunities available in my current expense matrix, or I would attempt to fully recognize why I was willing to pay more just for the privilege of living with some grumpy old man. If I determined that I was motivated to pay for the privilege of having sex with some grumpy old man, then I would likely resign myself to gracious exit from the field entirely, and make do with sex life based on looping videos featuring close-ups on biceps of 1970s guitarists. MMV

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:34 pm
by slowtraveler
I tend to split expenses 70-30 but 50-50 would make sense in many situations.

It's all about what they agreed upon but she is in debt so maybe it's a red flag.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:10 pm
by Tyler9000
Felipe wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:34 pm
It's all about what they agreed upon but she is in debt so maybe it's a red flag.
Note that there's nothing agreed upon. An alternative headline to the exact same letter could easily be "I can't afford my current lifestyle and asked someone to bankroll me. He declined. How unfair!"

If anything, there seems to be some indication that she's pushing the issue of moving in and he's not really on board with the idea. Again, we're only getting one side of the story.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:26 pm
by slowtraveler
With nothing agreed upon, 50-50 is the default. She could, like many people, be trying to get a sponsor. Plenty of quality independent women these days so no need to put up with that. We don't know the whole story though.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:35 pm
by Riggerjack
We're getting one side of the story, sure. But what threw out alarm bells for me was the story. When she didn't get the resolution she wanted from her BF, she wrote to a newspaper, telling her story, looking for the the support of anonymous strangers to back her up. I can already hear: "anon 2212 thinks you're being selfish! And kimberlylittle424 says ..."

Money woes can be worked out. But if that is her idea of conflict resolution, she will be single often, but not often enough.this is supposed to be a relationship, not an election of class treasurer.

Or maybe that's just my issue.

Re: My partner earns far more than me but wants me to pay a half share

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:44 pm
by Riggerjack
make do with sex life based on looping videos featuring close-ups on biceps of 1970s guitarists.
sometimes your imagery makes me laugh, and sometimes I'm just confused. This one left me confused. So i googled 70s guitarist, got pics of Frampton, Bowie, Satriani. All guys that look like addicts.

I feel like there is a joke here that I am missing...