Best city on US East Coast for ERE accumulation phase

[NPV]

Hi everyone,

Which of the following cities on US East Coast would you pick for ERE accumulation phase? Assume same pre-tax income in each location, no COL adjustment. For a couple with two school age kids.

New York
Boston
Washington DC
New Jersey
Philadelphia
Stamford

Seems like Philadelphia would be best from tax and COL standpoint? Not sure about the school options there.

[Dragline]

New Jersey is a state. If you could live anywhere in NJ, that might be best.

Other than that, these are so similar in many ways, you would need to know exactly where you are working in each of these areas, because its the commute and the cost of housing near work that will be the key issue. NYC is probably the most difficult with kids. Cheapest jurisdiction as far as taxes are concerned is probably Northern Virginia in the DC area, so long as you don't own an expensive vehicle (due to the personal property tax).

[NPV]

Thanks Dragline!

To your question on specific location, assume most commuting is either to downtown of the respective city (Summit, NJ in case of NJ) or the airport (would want to be within 30 minute commute from both). Also preference for places where I can avoid owning a car (would rather pay a bit more in rent for more central location if that is required to avoid car ownership).

[Papers of Indenture]

Sounds like you want to live in the city proper since you do not want a car. What are your plans for schooling? Public or private? This is going to be pretty important in the mid-Atlantic triad of DC/Baltimore/Philly. Are your kids real tough bastards? Can they hold their own in a knife fight? There are some good public school in those cities but they are the exception not the norm.

NYC and Boston are going to be more expensive but they'll probably have more enclaves that meet your expectations of living the pedestrian lifestyle and raising two children.

I don't know much about how the NJ suburbs of NYC work but I would imagine life there with 2 kids and no car could get interesting.

[NPV]

Sounds like you want to live in the city proper since you do not want a car. What are your plans for schooling? Public or private? This is going to be pretty important in the mid-Atlantic triad of DC/Baltimore/Philly. Are your kids real tough bastards? Can they hold their own in a knife fight? There are some good public school in those cities but they are the exception not the norm.

NYC and Boston are going to be more expensive but they'll probably have more enclaves that meet your expectations of living the pedestrian lifestyle and raising two children.

I don't know much about how the NJ suburbs of NYC work but I would imagine life there with 2 kids and no car could get interesting.

Schooling is an open question, and an important one, thanks for pointing it out.

One of my key priorities is quality education for my kids, hence I would want them going to a school which regularly sends alumni to top colleges.

With that as a constraint, the total cost of options across these cities which I would like to compare would include the cost of education of this quality, which might range from almost 0 if (in a perfect world) all public schools are good to some COL adjustment for living in a more expensive neighborhood to private school tuition x 2 if there are no good public school options period).

Would there be any neighborhoods in Philly which have a good public school without being "not-reachable-on-foot" suburbia? If not, how much would be good private school tuition cost for two kids - probably would offset ~25-30k p.a. in saved taxes and rent from choosing Philly over NY/Boston)?

[Chris]

Going carless is doable in all those places. Of those cities, car ownership is lowest in NYC, but it's really pretty easy in any city. The real question on that is the tradeoff between higher rent if you don't have a car. The good thing about most of those cities on the list is that they have public transit.

For schools, you can check ratings on Zillow (it's one of the details they provide for properties). Aside from public schools, the northeast has significant Catholic school system. They're private, but cheaper than most other private schools (like $10k vs. $20k).

My off-hand comments on your list:

Philly is the poorest big city in the US. Part of the reason is geographical: it's very easy to live in the PA/NJ/DE suburbs and commute to the city. So you have a lot of high earners working in the City, but spending their earnings outside it. Unlike NYC, you can get a house in Philly for the same price you can get one in the suburbs. There is housing stock available and gentrification isn't going quite as fast as some other cities. Center City analogous to Manhattan with its nice high-rises and expensive living. But unlike NYC, you can find cheaper housing elsewhere in the city without being an hour away from the center. PA has a flat tax (~3%), but the city also imposes an earnings tax (~4%).

Boston is a middle-size city that has been growing quite a bit. There are a lot of commuters. Lot of brains around, with high-tech, bio-tech, and the universities. Public transit is popular but also several billion dollars behind in maintenance work. MA has a flat tax (5.1%).

Jersey has great schools (and taxes to go with them). Northern NJ has a lot of bedroom communities for NYC workers. As a whole, NJ is kind of like a giant suburb, spotted with not-so-appearling cities (Newark, Trenton, Camden). That's why population clusters towards NYC or Philly. NJ does have a lot of pharma though in the suburban area. The NJ government ditched their reciprocal tax agreement with PA last year, so living in less-expensive PA and commuting to a higher-paying job in NJ is probably no longer an option.

NYC is big, busy, and the center of the world. In my personal opinion, don't think it would be that fun with kids, unless they're used to apartment living. Depending on your line of work, it's probably possible to find a similar paying job elsewhere, with out the expense of the "NYC experience." NY has a progressive income tax, as well as the city (up to ~4%).

[GardenDee]

I would say for Boston, if you work in the city, look at renting in Brookline or Watertown. Brookline has a fantastic public school and parks system and most locations are walkable or commutable. Many families can be quite transient if mom or dad are in the medical field and just here for 2 years for a fellowship at one of the major hospitals or universities. Brookline is pretty expensive, but there are bargains to be found.
Watertown is another area just on the outskirts of Boston city that has a small-town feel, but it's very commutable to Boston. Nice little public school system also and lots of activities for the kids.
Bear in mind, the tippy top public schools in Boston City (the exam schools, AKA Boston Latin) are extremely difficult/ competitive to get into, with many kids being prepped for 1-2 years beforehand.

[IlliniDave]

I don't know what your constraints are but you seem to have limited your self to only half the east coast. Depending on your line of work there may be cities in the southeast that could compete favorably (lower COL and taxation relative to income) if you have the geographic flexibility. I lived a few years in the Boston area and it felt like I was barely treading water. Moving to the Southeast (albeit not a coastal area) was like having a dam burst. Unfortunately I was initially young and subconsciously a bit of a YOLO-er, then soon after had a young family to support, so it took a while before I fully exploited it. But it was the best financial move (both senses of the word) of my life.

I still know and keep up with many people up in the Boston area. The more frugal-minded reside in New Hampshire and commute to work inside the 95/128 beltway. The commute isn't cheap, but they feel the lower cost of living/housing justifies it. They are also folks who intend to put down roots and be lifelong residents of the area. If it's just a place to work for a while the calculus would possibly differ.

[Dragline]

Schooling is an open question, and an important one, thanks for pointing it out.

One of my key priorities is quality education for my kids, hence I would want them going to a school which regularly sends alumni to top colleges.

With that as a constraint, the total cost of options across these cities which I would like to compare would include the cost of education of this quality, which might range from almost 0 if (in a perfect world) all public schools are good to some COL adjustment for living in a more expensive neighborhood to private school tuition x 2 if there are no good public school options period).

Would there be any neighborhoods in Philly which have a good public school without being "not-reachable-on-foot" suburbia? If not, how much would be good private school tuition cost for two kids - probably would offset ~25-30k p.a. in saved taxes and rent from choosing Philly over NY/Boston)?

You know what's funny is that it has become easier for a high performing student from a poorer or out of the way place to get into top schools than someone who attends high school in one of the education meccas and does well, but maybe not quite as well as their high-performing classmates. This is because top colleges also look for geographic diversity and don't want to take too many kids from the same area or schools. Your best bet to get your kid into an Ivy League school is actually to move to a place like Arkansas and have them kick ass, believe it or not. But probably not ideal for other reasons (like high-paying employment for you and highly motivated peers for junior).

There are many good public schools in the DC and MD counties around DC (and plenty of bad ones too). Thomas Jefferson HIgh School in Fairfax county is routinely rated as the top 1,2 or 3 in the country. But its harder to get into than a top 20 college. Not so much great public schools in DC itself, but there are a few. Before high school, they really just need to stay out of trouble. One of the best things about Virginia, though, is in-state tuition at the University of Virginia (if kid can get in), which is about 40% of the cost of comparable private schools. UVA is usually ranked second after Cal-Berkeley for public universities in the US.

In Philly, I have some relatives who started there in a row house near the Art Museum and the Eastern State Penitentiary (relax, its a museum now). It was a fun city neighborhood and they had their first couple kids there. When their kids got a little older (eldest now 9 or 10), they moved to the Narberth area which is on the Main LIne for commuter trains and is very convenient. They are happy with the public schools there and actually moved from private to public. I have another friend in that area who has her daughter at Lower Merion High School and that is working out well, too.

[Papers of Indenture]

NPV,
I'm pretty familar with private schools in the DC metro region. I'm sure Philly is similar. Here's a sample of a wide range of private high schools in the Washington DC mega region that i'm familiar with along with their location, affiliation, and yearly tuition....just so you get an idea:

Georgetown Prep (DC) (Jesuit) $50k
Gonzaga College (DC) (Jesuit) $21k
DeMatha Catholic (DC suburb) (Trinitarian) $17k
St. John's College (DC) (LaSallian) $19k
Calvert Hall College (Baltimore suburb) (LaSallian) $16k
Loyola Blakefield (Baltimore suburb) (Jesuit) $20k
St. Alban's School (DC) (Episcopal) $35k
St. Paul's School (Baltimore suburb) (Episcopal) $29k
Sidwell Friends School (DC) (Quaker) $34k
Archbishop Carroll (DC) (Diocesan) $9k
Potomac School (N.VA) (Secular) $39k
Archbishop Curley (Baltimore) (Franciscan) $11k
Gilman School (Baltimore) (Secular) $29k
Our Lady of Good Counsel (DC suburb) (Xaverian) $22k
Landon School (DC suburb) (Secular) $38k
Archbishop Spalding (Baltimore suburb) (Diocesan) $15k
Bishop McNamara (DC suburb) (Holy Cross) $14k
Bishop O'Connell (N. VA) (Diocesan) $16k
Mount Saint Joseph (Baltimore) (Xaverian) $15k
Concordia Prep (Baltimore suburb) (Lutheran) $12k
Bullis School (DC suburb) (Secular) $32k
Riverdale Baptist (DC suburb) (Baptist) $12k
Boys Latin School (Baltimore) (Secular) $22k
Bishop Ireton (N. VA) (Diocesan) $16k
McDonogh School (Baltimore suburb) (Secular) $29k
Friends School (Baltimore) (Quaker) $30k

If you want a high powered pipeline to the Ivy League or similar....you're talking spending a literal fortune at Georgetown Prep, Gilman, McDonogh, Landon, and Sidwell Friends.

Generally your Diocesan schools operated directly by the Catholic Church or ones run by a monastic order will be cheapest...but also not particularly great. The better Catholic schools are the ones operated by the Jesuits or one of the Brotherhoods like the LaSallians and Xaverians.

You're not going to get a secular private education in this region without a total investment of at least $100,000. There's always financial aid though.

You would be best served by the public schools in Montgomery and Howard Counties (or alternatively Northern Virginia). These are generally considered two of the best public school systems in the U.S. Churchill, Wootton, Poolesville, Walter Johnson, Richard Montgomery, Marriotts Ridge, River Hill....these are all very highly esteemed public school in those districts.

[Dragline]

My plug for Gonzaga if you are thinking of going that route: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... 01e2f2809a

[NPV]

Thanks everyone, these perspectives are very helpful.

My take-aways so far are:
1. A pedestrian-friendly suburb on train line with decent public schools would make most sense regardless of which city in particular (as private schools are either religious or expensive enough to outweigh any potential savings from COL and tax maneuvering, and good public schools are next to non-existent in urban areas)
2. Out of the cities I listed, such suburbs exist in Boston (Brookline, Watertown), New York, Philadelphia (Narberth, Merion)
3. From FI accumulation perspective, seems like a tie between Boston and Philly. Boston wins a few grand a year on taxes and loses less than I expected on rent (I expected rent to be at least 1.5 times higher in Boston over Philly, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on this quick comparison):
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_rent/N ... ect/14_zm/
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_rent/B ... ect/12_zm/

[James_0011]

I would suggest looking at this site: numbeo.com

You can sort by purchasing power (cost of living relative to salary):

12 Jersey City, NJ, United States
58 Philadelphia, PA, United States
63 Boston, MA, United States
93 Queens, NY, United States
99 Washington, DC, United States
116 New York, NY, United States
123 Brooklyn, NY, United States

All else equal, it looks like jersey is the way to go.

[JasonR]

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