milk drinkers unite! (experiences with milk (alternatives)?)

[bryan]

Looking for others' experiences with milk or milk alternatives.

I love milk and drink about 2 gallons of whole milk per week. Most of my favourite foods are perfectly paired with a cold glass of milk (I'm not sure about the causation..). The quality (and taste) of milk available at markets seem to be in line with the cost. For now I have taken to finding a decent tasting cheap brand for all uses of milk but have always said one of my splurges will eventually be to have premium milk stuffs.

Has anyone had ill-effects of drinking too much or too little milk? What are some other milk alternatives and why would they be preferable to what comes out of a cow? Any strong opinions about milk?

I know many deplorables ( ) just use water instead of milk. Heard mention of almond, coconuts, rice being used for vegan milks..

[C40]

My personal opinion is that in most cases a person should drink no milk. The only time I drink it are SOME of the times that I'm trying hard to get excess calories very conveniently. That said, when I was drinking milk, I wanted to try to get some raw/unpasteurized milk. Supposedly it's much better for you** because of the enzymes that are otherwise destroyed in pasteurized milk. Depending heavily on where you live, finding and buying raw milk may be too much work to be worth it.



** as long as it's not contaminated with something that makes you sick, which, funny enough, happened to people in Wisconsin when they drank milk on the capital square to celebrate some law change related to selling raw milk

[Kriegsspiel]

** as long as it's not contaminated with something that makes you sick, which, funny enough, happened to people in Wisconsin when they drank milk on the capital square to celebrate some law change related to selling raw milk

Hey, West Virginia too!
http://fortune.com/2016/03/10/raw-milk-illness/

[Kriegsspiel]

Oh, but to answer the question, when I was drinking a gallon of milk a day, my poop smelled totally weird. Now I'm mostly drinking dried milk with oats and whey.

[GandK]

I know many deplorables ( ) just use water instead of milk.

This is me. I use water for everything, to include recipes that call for milk. I even put it on my rice Chex. I have also raised my sons to not need/want milk. The only time we have it in the house now is when my stepkiddos are around.

I have had almond milk. It tastes reasonably milkish. I prefer the vanilla variety to the plain, which IMO has an odd aftertaste. (Not unpleasant, just not what one expects when drinking milk.) I have no experience at all with rice milk. I would definitely not drink gallons of soy milk on a regular basis because of the estrogen effect of soy.

[BRUTE]

brute loves milk. he drank 1/4 to 1/2 gallon most days growing up. brute has very strong bones.

unfortunately, milk has too much sugar to keep doing this on brute's current diet (keto). brute has upgraded to heavy whipping cream. it's very difficult to drink even 1/2 quart of heavy whipping cream in one sitting. brute has tried it.

if bryan is doing what he's doing, he's certainly not allergic to milk like many humans are. brute has heard it's actually the exception in humans that they can tolerate a lot of cow's milk. many cut it out and feel much better. brute has never had any problems with absurd amounts of milk or other dairy, and if bryan had them, he'd know by now.

so go, more milk for bryan.

brute isn't really a milk snob - he hasn't tried goat or sheep or raw milk. he's tried almond and soy milk, and found both disgusting. that shit has nothing to do with milk, it tastes like liquid throat cancer. the same goes for that long shelf life milk that doesn't require refrigeration. disturbing.

another option is just using half & half. as opposed to heavy whipping cream, half & half can be used for anything milk can be used for, even drinking straight from the glass.

regarding sources, brute just used to get solid quality milk from a more reputable supermarket.

[Sclass]

I drink a quarter cup of whole milk in my latte (homemade) everyday.

Does dairy put you at risk for heart disease? I recall somebody bringing it up here.

[black_son_of_gray]

I grew up on 2% dairy milk (parent's prerogative), then cut that out when I left my parent's home. The only dairy I eat is cheese or yogurt, maybe one serving a week.

I have had rice, coconut, hemp, and flax milks (never had oat milk!). I routinely have either almond or soy milk, but I typically only use about a quarter to half a cup every morning in my oatmeal. Plain for everything, no added sugars or vanilla flavoring.

Just like with tofu, people go into alternative milks with a mindset that it is a substitute for dairy milk (i.e. tofu is 'fake' meat). If you can get that out of your head and just consider it for what it is, you might appreciate certain aspects more.

@GandK "I would definitely not drink gallons of soy milk on a regular basis because of the estrogen effect of soy."
Granted, who would drink gallons a day(?), but what is the estrogenic effect of soy? And how is that different from the estrogen present in dairy milk or meat? I would think that mammalian estrogen in animal foods would be more effective at binding to human estrogen receptors than plant phytoestrogens...

[Ego]

I would think that mammalian estrogen in animal foods would be more effective at binding to human estrogen receptors than plant phytoestrogens...

Yep.....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19496976

RESULTS: After the intake of cow milk, serum estrone (E1) and progesterone concentrations significantly increased, and serum luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone and testosterone significantly decreased in men. Urine concentrations of E1, estradiol, estriol and pregnanediol significantly increased in all adults and children. In four out of five women, ovulation occurred during the milk intake, and the timing of ovulation was similar among the three menstrual cycles.

CONCLUSIONS: The present data on men and children indicate that estrogens in milk were absorbed, and gonadotropin secretion was suppressed, followed by a decrease in testosterone secretion. Sexual maturation of prepubertal children could be affected by the ordinary intake of cow milk.

[BRUTE]

Does dairy put you at risk for heart disease?

no

[vexed87]

I have toyed with plant based diet but became a lot less strict lately, I started primarily for environmental reasons but later for health, so switched from milk to soy milk and 5 months on I have experienced no ill effects, I haven't gone back to milk. Naturally alternatives taste different, but I actually grew to prefer soy milk. We really never have cows milk in the house anymore except when DW brings home her office's surplus, I'll then use it in baking but don't drink it. I've served soy milk to family in coffee, and they were none the wiser, DW cant taste the difference either.

I also like almond milk which I make at home if I run out of shop bought soy milk (which I use because its fortified). I recommend you try a few different brands to find a milk alternative that you like, because they all taste differently, even just within the varieties of soy milks. Don't give up after just trying one brand.

I've successfully replaced milk with soy milk in baking things like brioche and cakes, you'd think it changes the taste, but there's no discernible difference, I could therefore vouch that switching to water in recipes makes little difference.

[GandK]

Granted, who would drink gallons a day(?)

The OP says he drinks gallons of milk per day and is looking for a substitute.

Edit: 2 gallons per week, LOL

And how is that different from the estrogen present in dairy milk or meat? I would think that mammalian estrogen in animal foods would be more effective at binding to human estrogen receptors than plant phytoestrogens...

The problem with soy (at least among vegetarians and vegans) is that people go overboard with it. You have people who transition to a plant based diet but still want to eat as much "dairy" and "meat" and convenience foods as they're used to, and supplement with protein powder etc. to compensate for the lower protein content in a vegetable based diet. Those foods and supplements are almost always soy based. You end up with people for whom soy is half their diet, and they start having hormone problems that they didn't have on an animal protein diet. Simply because of the amount. I know 2 different people who have had to cut way back on soy because it messed with their hormone levels.

Now, the OP doesn't say why he's looking for a milk substitute. And he may not be consuming any soy. But he may be going plant-based, which might create a problem if he isn't careful. Hence my comment.

[ThisDinosaur]

I have been averaging a gallon of milk a day since I was a teenager. Its basically a pre-mixed fast and slow protein shake. Its as close to a complete food as there is in nature. And its consistently one of the cheapest sources of protein. But its not perfect. No food is. Most humans are lactose intolerant, some are allergic, and quite a few are trying to lose weight. Milk is contraindicated for those groups.

Ego is right that the actual estrogen in milk is more bioactive than the estrogen-like compounds in soy. So if that's a concern for you, I'd ditch both of them. More concerning than the estrogen, though, is that its absorbable peptides include IGF (Insulin-like Growth Factor). Meaning, it encourages tissue growth. That's awesome if you are a newborn, bulking bodybuilder, or wannabe linebacker. But there is anecdotal evidence that it can encourage cancer growth. Like I said, no food's perfect!

"Processed food" is a big target these days for ubiquitous health and weight problems. Its hard to imagine anything being more processed than liquid rice and legumes.

[Ego]

The problem with soy (at least among vegetarians and vegans) is that people go overboard with it. You have people who transition to a plant based diet but still want to eat as much "dairy" and "meat" and convenience foods as they're used to, and supplement with protein powder etc. to compensate for the lower protein content in a vegetable based diet. Those foods and supplements are almost always soy based. You end up with people for whom soy is half their diet, and they start having hormone problems that they didn't have on an animal protein diet. Simply because of the amount. I know 2 different people who have had to cut way back on soy because it messed with their hormone levels.

The milk industry has been good at disinformation with regard to soy. Soy estrogen binds to beta-receptors in humans. Some soy is protective to humans but, as you say, too much is not good. How much is too much? More than 5 servings.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-muc ... -too-much/

The hops in beer, on the other hand, has a strong phyto-estrogen that binds to alpha-receptors. Beer can be as hormone disrupting as the horse-urine derived drug Premarin doctors used to prescribe to post-menopausal women. Premarin also binds to alpha-receptors. Doctors stopped prescribing Premarin to women when they realized it promoted hormone fed breast cancer.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-ar ... n-in-beer/

Bottom line. Evidence shows:

-Less than five servings a day of soy is very healthy (extremely low cancer rates in Japan).
-Milk is unhealthy.
-Beer.... well... drink up if you're a boob man.

http://i.imgur.com/LaXddhs.jpg

(I save this stuff for the weekend. )

[Dragline]

Five servings of beer a day, you say? When do I get started!

[black_son_of_gray]

@GandK - Ok, fair points. Thanks for clarifying.

[cmonkey]

Dairy, in particular ice cream makes both of us bloat and so we limit it to a treat once in a while. We went through a phase last year where we ate a lot of ice cream. We noticed that whenever we stopped eating it, both of us fit into our clothes again and were just generally more comfortable. This suggests both of us are mildly lactose intolerant and that we are not doing ourselves any favors by ingesting it.

So, now we eat a small amount every few months, usually when the in-laws are here (they love dairy).

We have tried almond milk and I prefer it to all other 'milk options', but ethical issues surround almond growing (water use, trucking in the bees) stopped that. Rice milk is ok....a bit watered down.

I just go with water and coffee (way too much ) for daily drinking.

[Solvent]

My totally anecdotal story:
A few years back I was drinking lots of milk because I was lifting weights and wanted to put on more muscle. I wasn't quite doing GOMAD but probably wasn't too far off it. Then I went to Vietnam for a month. Milk's not a bit thing there. I did drink some while I was away, but not every day and not a lot.

When I came back, and got back into the dairy-heavy diet, my guts felt pretty bad for a couple of weeks. Now, this isn't exactly a double-blind study and it could've been a lot of things. But milk is what I suspect was the culprit. I guess there's something to do with the gut bacteria - after a while not having to digest lactose, the particular organisms responsible for that job lowered in population relative to others, and took a while to build back up.

I continue to drink milk, but not as much. I'm not convinced it's particularly healthy, but the list of 'things I should consume less of' is long and I don't pay too much attention to it. I digest it pretty well and it's a cheap source of fat and protein.

[BRUTE]

Its as close to a complete food as there is in nature.

maybe eggs, but yea. unless a human is intolerant (which many are!), milk is probably one of the least bad offenders. it's bad for fat loss. it's great for gains (fat or muscle mass).

regarding the soy/estrogen thing: brute has both heard that it's a conspiracy by anti-soy groups, and knows people who consume a lot of soy and get their hormones tested without any negative effect. but apparently there's a few who did get affected. might be individual, too.

apparently in japan, most soy is consumed in a fermented state, which is said not to have any of the negative effects that non-fermented soy does. they also eat way less than a franken-vegan who eats a pound of soy per day. it's not used as a meat replacement there like it is by some western vegans. it's used fermented to flavor miso soup and stuff like that.

[Ego]

apparently in japan, most soy is consumed in a fermented state, which is said not to have any of the negative effects that non-fermented soy does. they also eat way less than a franken-vegan who eats a pound of soy per day. it's not used as a meat replacement there like it is by some western vegans. it's used fermented to flavor miso soup and stuff like that.

I found a few articles that say the Japanese consume about 50% fermented soy (Natto, tempeh, miso) and 50% unfermented (soy milk, tofu). They list this study as source...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16965235

Interestingly, the fermentation process makes the isoflavonoid phytoestrogen MORE bio-available. If you are afraid of soy then you should really be afraid of fermented soy.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/68/6/1492S.short

The first study also found....

The total soy food intake of Japanese adults aged 60–69 years is 91.7 g/day, approximately 50% higher than the mean intake of the overall Japanese population. On average, Americans eat 5g/day of soy food.