Stuff --- A cluttered life

[cmonkey]

@jacob, what type of reno work are you doing?

[7Wannabe5]

jacob said: Ugh! Got me there. Ultimately, I suppose it comes down to whether one enjoys such activities.

lol. Yes and no. "Just clean it for a year." is the single best piece of advice I was ever offered and chose to ignore when I owned an extreme fixer-upper. Often stuff ends up in landfills or donation bins just because it requires the most basic maintenance. One thing I think about a lot is whether legal ownership or physical care better constitutes natural dominance or possession. IOW, to what extent can you claim something for which you do not care? You own a house. You make a home. There is only a limited amount of stuff we can afford to really invest with our time and our energy and our love. Every parent of young children has had the experience of being driven to the brink of insanity by their behavior. When that would happen to me, I would catch them and put them in the tub, dress them in clean pajamas and read them a book. Then I would be happy to have a life cluttered with kids again. I think the word I am grasping for is "alienating." It is depressing, confusing and alienating to have more stuff in your life than you can imbue with your spirit. I did a good deal of good work when I owned my fixer-upper, so sometimes I still have happy thoughts about sanding a surface smooth, building a wall, replacing a pane of glass, or even installing a toilet, but I seriously do not know if I am up to buying and renovating one of the many dilapidated foreclosures in my current neighborhood, just like I can't imagine being up to raising another family of children at my age.

[Did]

I'm over doing up our cottage. We have devoted over a year to the project on and off. That's it. It's done (almost). Next project please.

[JL13]

"Just clean it for a year." is the single best piece of advice I was ever offered and chose to ignore when I owned an extreme fixer-upper.

I can't even be bothered to clean my bicycle. I just wait for the dirt to be blown off by the wind or rinsed off by light rain. I can't imagine what it would be like to be responsible to clean an entire house.

I remember being really surprised to read how common maids are in South American. Even the maids use maids there! I wonder why it never really caught on in the US?

[7Wannabe5]

JL13 said: I remember being really surprised to read how common maids are in South American. Even the maids use maids there! I wonder why it never really caught on in the US?

I think it has varied in popularity. My father who was born in the 30s grew up in a household with a full-time maid and a stay-at-home mother. Today, most affluent women make use of a variety of services or domestic-end-products that weren't available back then. For instance, the modern equivalent of my grandmother would likely not have a full-time maid, but she would have a twice weekly cleaning service and easy ability to pick up dinner from the Whole Foods buffet on her way home from the salon or yoga studio. My mother was a terrible housekeeper, pretty much gave up on it completely when I was around 12, so I have an almost Dickensian-level sentimental attachment to the notion of the "goodness" of doing it for yourself, due to the memory of having to clean a very large, very, very messy (although impeccably furnished and decorated on one of her manic sprees) house all by myself if I wanted to invite a friend over to visit. My father couldn't even hire a maid because my mother would rage out at them. Recently, my mother who is now 75, temporarily lost some of her mobility, and started having a physical therapist and an occupational therapist come around for home visits. The occupational therapist became concerned because she clearly hadn't done her dishes for a few days. So, my sister and I had to drive over to my mother's apartment and get her caught up on her housework, even though we all knew that my mother ALWAYS lets her dishes pile up, and it had nothing to do with her current minor physical disability. Maddening.

[jacob]

@JL13 - It's my [perhaps erroneous] understanding that culturally speaking, in South American(*) countries, if you can afford it, you HAVE to hire help. It's a way of spreading the wealth. Doing some chore yourself when you have the money not to is frowned upon.

(*) That might be casting too wide a net.

[7Wannabe5]

This is definitely true in Tehran. However, most affluent, well-educated Iranian women are excellent homemakers themselves, so the fact that they also have a lot of help just serves to raise the expected standard. I really had to take my game up a notch when I started hostessing with my ex. Luckily, my Midwestern Rural Church-lady Potluck Persian Buffet Fusion Menu proved quite popular. Who doesn't like pickles and pie?

[Bankai]

Also, for me, minimalism is not just about not owning more stuff than I need. It's also about not taking ownership of other people's clutter (including their psychological clutter).

I've never thought about it this way (although I'm kinda practicing it anyway), thank you

[jacob]

@stoneage - http://www.amazon.com/Unstuff-Your-Life ... 1583333894 I'd recommend this one. I've been reading a bunch of minimalist/downsizing books lately and I think this one is good if the goal is to restore "normal operations". E.g. the book covers the transition from "I just bought a new hat because I forgot about the one that's been hidden under a pile of old jackets for two years now" to "If my hat not on my head, it is on the hook behind the closet door." It's also good for getting rid of "useless" collections like "I have these piles of old magazines that I'm going to get around to reading one day." The goal [of this book] is to only own what you're using and to know where to find that stuff when you need it. As such it's more of an organizational book. Here's the author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-nMDzccJwc

[BRUTE]

brute likes the general gist of that "Magic of Tidying up" book, even if it seems to be written for soccer moms. the gist being "why would brute own something he doesn't love owning". this is what brute has unconsciously doing for years, hence minimalism. there's only so much love to go around.

[FBeyer]

brute likes the general gist of that "Magic of Tidying up" book, even if it seems to be written for soccer moms. the gist being "why would brute own something he doesn't love owning". this is what brute has unconsciously doing for years, hence minimalism. there's only so much love to go around.

I've come to terms with the 'talking-with-my-socks' thing Kondo's got going.
I now realize, after reading up on Stoicism, that what she is practising a form of gratitude and negative visualization. The mysticism is nothing more than weaning yourself from hedonic adaptation. I now 'talk' to my favorite matte black coffee cup every morning...

The life-changing magic of tidying up does clash a bit with ERE in my opinion. There are things in my home that I believe take up space and irritate me on a daily basis, even though I know I might need them for one day where I need to save money not getting thing-X again(*).

I'm moving more towards William Morris's take on this:

If you want a golden rule that will fit everybody, this is it: Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful.

Also

Simplicity of life, even the barest, is not a misery, but the very foundation of refinement: a sanded floor and whitewashed walls, and the green trees, and flowery meads, and living waters outside; or a grimy palace amid the smoke with a regiment of housemaids always working to smear the dirt together so that it may be unnoticed; which, think you, is the most refined, the most fit for a gentleman of those two dwellings?

The useful stuff is mostly hidden away. I freakin' despise cleaning.

(*) The solution is to find someone I can borrow this from in the future.

[7Wannabe5]

The William Morris rule is also pretty good for choosing a SO. Of course, if you intend to be monogamous, you should probably substitute "and" for "or."

Of course, I also like Cicero's "If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need." But, if you give a mouse a garden, then she will also likely need some loppers, and then once she starts to lopping, she may also want a barrow, and once she has a barrow, she may need a shed in which to store it, and wouldn't both a hedge of American Plum and a hedge of Blueberry and a mixed patch of cabbage, bush beans and nasturtiums be beautiful and useful?...etc, etc, etc, (sigh, decisions, decisions..) I can also confirm through personal experience, the general rule of thumb that states that 5000 volumes is the maximum number of beautiful and useful books that can be stored in a moderately sized domicile without falling over the edge into "dirty hoarder" status is true. And we have as yet to give any consideration to musical instruments, balls of wool, colored pencils, the cat, the chickens and the wormery, toy box, tree house, the pitcher for the lemonade, the copper teapot, hand grinder, string of pearls, perfume decanter, ribbons...

[jennypenny]

Rich Roll's latest podcast is with Joshua Shields Millburn who has a new documentary on minimalism out. They touched on a lot of ERE-related topics. They even mentioned Fight Club, Stoics, and Thoreau.

I thought there was so much that was worthwhile I listened to it twice. Maybe it was just a case of the right message at the right time. It helped uncover some hidden issues of mine.

[CS]

For instance, it might even be the case that in the moment of adding "change furnace filters" as bi-yearly pop-up on your calendar, you will discover that you no longer wish to be a home-owner.

Ugh! Got me there. Ultimately, I suppose it comes down to whether one enjoys such activities. For example, I loathe the weekly summer reminder to mow the lawn (so I'm slowly replacing the lawn with vegetables), as well as the winter reminder the shovel the sidewalks. I even find myself entertaining sacrilegious thoughts like "maybe we should buy a condo instead" . Then there's the issue of "shit breaking all the time" which adds to it.

THAT is why I don't own a house. (I've had two in the past)

brute likes the general gist of that "Magic of Tidying up" book, even if it seems to be written for soccer moms. the gist being "why would brute own something he doesn't love owning". this is what brute has unconsciously doing for years, hence minimalism. there's only so much love to go around.

I've come to terms with the 'talking-with-my-socks' thing Kondo's got going.
I now realize, after reading up on Stoicism, that what she is practising a form of gratitude and negative visualization. The mysticism is nothing more than weaning yourself from hedonic adaptation. I now 'talk' to my favorite matte black coffee cup every morning...

Good to know. I treasure that book. It has given me permission to let a lot of stuff go. Nothing fries my brain faster than the thought of having to BUY something because I can't find it's current counterpart in some pile.

I'm also finding that I'm getting a lot more done. Treating the cutting board and utensils? Done, in less than five minutes. Less stuff is just less drain on the brain... that includes items, chores, commitments, everything.

Rich Roll's latest podcast is with Joshua Shields Millburn who has a new documentary on minimalism out. They touched on a lot of ERE-related topics. They even mentioned Fight Club, Stoics, and Thoreau.

I thought there was so much that was worthwhile I listened to it twice. Maybe it was just a case of the right message at the right time. It helped uncover some hidden issues of mine.

Wish they would do more writing than podcasts... I can sneak reading in at work. Podcasts not so much.

[TopHatFox]

I really like the ultra-light backpacking community and van dwellers on minimalism; they really know/learn how to get the most bang for the buck in what to own and what not to own.

[FBeyer]

Wouldn't ocean going sail boating be the epitome of minimalism? You HAVE to have everything you need right there, because there are no shops around to refill your stock, you also cannot have more than you need because there simply isn't room for it.

[wood]

I really like the ultra-light backpacking community and van dwellers on minimalism; they really know/learn how to get the most bang for the buck in what to own and what not to own.

Would you like to share a summary?

[jennypenny]

So far, 3 of you have told me the podcast is boring. You people are so jaded.

so listen to it at your own risk

[Ego]

So far, 3 of you have told me the podcast is boring. You people are so jaded.

so listen to it at your own risk

I thought it was good. We had a similar experiences while going through my parents house after they died. Those moments can make you look around and rethink why you are doing what you are doing. I think that question they ask at the end is at the heart of what is going on here .... What if everything you ever wanted isn't what you actually want? It is so easy to get caught up in just doing it because everyone is doing it that you assume it is what you want. It takes someone like jacob or sclass, or 7wanna, or c40 or olaz to show us that we can dismantle the way things are usually done and reconfigure and repurpose them in unusual ways that work for us.

[BRUTE]

I really like the ultra-light backpacking community and van dwellers on minimalism; they really know/learn how to get the most bang for the buck in what to own and what not to own.

brute finds that ultra backpackers have such different use cases that their tips/products are usually not very applicable to anything outside of hiking (i.e. living day to day).

van dwellers, on the other hand, are very focused on the day to day, to the point of making decisions that seem ludicrous at first, but then make sense considering they use their space very differently than most humans use those same spaces. more focused on routine, like making a cup of coffee in the morning, or packing things conveniently instead of efficiently.