Alcohol moderation

[MZMpac]

It's funny because correlational studies are what most frequently make the media and go viral in people's quotes. Even big, vaunted journals like NEJM publish pure correlation and it somehow gets translated as 'x does y'.

[Did]

Thanks. Looks like the first article, from 2009, says we should look closer. The second, which is recent, quotes 87 studies that support moderate drinking, and even says in its first sentence that the science falls this way. It then goes on to question whether these 87 studies (some of many) have been properly conducted. At the least, there is evidence both ways.

Certainly nobody is being foolish on the current evidence for having a glass of wine regularly. It may even be helping. The question is whether or not you actually drink like that or are kidding yourself. I regularly don't, if I am honest, hence this thread.

[chicago81]

I used to drink far more than I do now. In my younger years, I went through a period of time where I probably drank a little too much. Now I will have one drink in an evening maybe once or twice per week.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have drank less. It would have allowed me to save even more money. I have no idea how much money I wasted on it. Probably wasn't too great for my health either.

[enigmaT120]

I understand alcohol does cause cancer but in all but the most obscene levels of consumption overall morality is reduced due to the cardiovascular protective effect. To not drink at all is to increase risk of death generally speaking.

Sweet typo.

[jacob]

[enigmaT120]

wow, amazing news: correlation doesn't equal causation.

in brute's opinion, any study that merely detects correlation should be immediately disqualified from "x does y". it's an interesting sign if 90% of humans who drink wine beat their wives, but unless there's been a mechanism clearly demonstrated, nothing can be claimed.

C'mon, it's only correlation that tells me I need sex 5 or more days per week to reduce my risk of prostate cancer. It could just as easily mean that men who manage to do that have healthy prostates to begin with.

And what is with the strange love of smoking that so many lung cancer-prone people have?

[CECTPA]

In the research related to lifestyle nothing else is possible in terms of design except for correlation inferences. Take smoking, it was never a causation, that smoking causes cancer in humans. But the volume and the depth of the research digested into numerous meta-analyses created the evidence of the highest level. You either accept these rules of the game or just don't talk about lifestyle research at all.

[steveo73]

In the research related to lifestyle nothing else is possible in terms of design except for correlation inferences. Take smoking, it was never a causation, that smoking causes cancer in humans. But the volume and the depth of the research digested into numerous meta-analyses created the evidence of the highest level. You either accept these rules of the game or just don't talk about lifestyle research at all.

I agree with you. It's all we can go on. Past a certain point it's also pretty accurate or at least accurate enough to guide your decisions.

[Did]

My father in law is one of those types who should probably have been a decade ago. He is an expat from Dublin, and his greatest pleasure in life is telling stories over a few drinks. He has confided that he would prefer to be dead in 5 years after 5 years of good living, than removing some of his pleasures and perhaps (but not necessarily) living into his dotage. He's about 65.

I don't think he's necessarily wrong, given his priorities. At least he's thinking about it.

[CECTPA]

Hopefully those in favor of "I'll enjoy my super-unhealthy lifestyle because life is so short" sign a "Do not resuscitate" order and and a living will. Our Long Term Care unit is full of those who didn't. Is being a vegetable for 10+ years a part of the plan?

[Did]

@CECTPA No I don't think that is part of the plan. He was very ill a few years back, and some would have pulled the plug, but he got through and has had years of high quality life since. So one does need to be careful.

[Ego]

..... his greatest pleasure in life is telling stories over a few drinks. He has confided that he would prefer to be dead in 5 years after 5 years of good living, than removing some of his pleasures and perhaps (but not necessarily) living into his dotage. He's about 65.

I don't think he's necessarily wrong, given his priorities. At least he's thinking about it.

'

That's exactly why I keep pushing this. Pleasures like alcohol are entirely learned behaviors. We have a choice. He learned very early in life to find joy in drinking with his buddies and telling stories. He could have just as easily learned to find pleasure in more healthy activities. He could meet friends over tea or coffee rather than alcohol. At my library there is a group of Hindu Indian guys who meet each morning to discuss Indian politics and argue over who gets to read which section of the newspaper first.

In youth we must be careful which things we choose to find pleasurable. As we age, they tend to grow.

[7Wannabe5]

Ego said: In youth we must be careful which things we choose to find pleasurable. As we age, they tend to grow.

True. That's why I'm glad I lost my virginity at 15.

[BRUTE]

He has confided that he would prefer to be dead in 5 years after 5 years of good living, than removing some of his pleasures and perhaps (but not necessarily) living into his dotage.

unfortunately, the dichotomy of living well OR living long is usually false. the biggest killers (at least in the west) are heart disease, lung problems, diabetes, and stroke. they usually lead to very dramatic decreases in quality of life before they kill. sometimes decades before they kill. same is likely true for alcoholism.

[heyhey]

I had a hard-living, hard-drinking uncle who greatly enjoyed his life and I'm sure would have agreed "he would prefer to be dead in 5 years after 5 years of good living, than removing some of his pleasures and perhaps (but not necessarily) living into his dotage".

He suffered a stroke and was bedridden for 10 years before he died, during which time he had both legs amputated, was unable to speak coherently, and could do nothing except listen to audio books if somebody was kind enough to play them for him.

I agree with Brute, "the dichotomy of living well OR living long is usually false".

[steveo73]

..... his greatest pleasure in life is telling stories over a few drinks. He has confided that he would prefer to be dead in 5 years after 5 years of good living, than removing some of his pleasures and perhaps (but not necessarily) living into his dotage. He's about 65.

I don't think he's necessarily wrong, given his priorities. At least he's thinking about it.

'

That's exactly why I keep pushing this. Pleasures like alcohol are entirely learned behaviors. We have a choice. He learned very early in life to find joy in drinking with his buddies and telling stories. He could have just as easily learned to find pleasure in more healthy activities. He could meet friends over tea or coffee rather than alcohol. At my library there is a group of Hindu Indian guys who meet each morning to discuss Indian politics and argue over who gets to read which section of the newspaper first.

In youth we must be careful which things we choose to find pleasurable. As we age, they tend to grow.

This is a typical scenario and it's also typical that the vice turns into something that is what is important to living a good life. I think that you have to look for meaning in doing stuff that is good for you.

[Did]

I hope someone plays me audiobooks.

Actually I would prefer harder drugs and hookers. I'm serious. Why do retirement villages have 70s concerts?

[BRUTE]

yea, constipation over cirrhosis of the liver any day!

[Did]

@brute I meant in a post disaster/end of life situation. So I guess I will have both.

[denise]

I never could get into drinking. I tried it in undergrad and grad school, but never took to it. Once, in college, my sensei asked me what I did to unwind. I said martial arts. He told me to try drinking a beer a day. I tried drinking a hard apple cider a day. It was relaxing, but I still didn't take to it.

Now I just drink cocktails socially. Unless I'm on a cruise, then I drink cocktails/frozen drinks throughout the day, if I catch a free drink package. If not, then I don't drink.