I've been on the ERE path for some time now, almost 3 years I think, slowly increasing my skill in being more efficient with resources to put it short.
My main problem with adopting this lifestyle is related to the social aspect.
1. Family.
I don't deal with my family too much on a daily basis, but the main issue here is the wastefulness when it comes to birthdays and christmas. As an example most of my family have refused to A) Not give me anything for my birthday, B) Donate to charity in my name or C) Give me money. I appreciate their intentions and deal with it just fine (I try acquire useful things or donate what I get), but I feel misunderstood as a person and it causes a bit of internal anger/frustration on my part. How do you deal with this? How much energy do you spend "convincing" them? At what point do you give up and just cope with it?
2. Friends
Ok, maybe this thread belongs in the other subforum. Same thing with friends, but my path of choice has been to slowly remove the friends I associate myself with if I feel the negatives are outweighing the positives. It's hard though, because we ERE folks are so to-the-core different from many other people its sometimes even hard for me to maintain an acceptable level of admiration for potentially new friends. It almost translates to a feeling of loss of faith in humanity in a way. I internally disregard this as being irrational emotions on my part and move on with my life, but at times it feels like its bottling up somehow. The sad part is that the anger has been directed not from me towards my friends, but the other way around. I'm still the same person but I'm being treated by long time friends as if I've become a stranger. Some of them show anger or disrespect for how I live my life, others ignore me. Maybe I'm not the same person anymore? How to deal? Friendships have been a great way for me to share and express personal values throughout the years but this seems no longer possible, due to silly things like being ridiculed for making home made cider and how cheap I am. Maybe the best way to adapt would be to keep friendships at a fairly superficial level, e.g. keeping a bunch of acquintances with whom I share different interests/activities with and keep it at that? No more deep connections? Do you guys have friends? I have like 3 of them left at this point. I guess you only get to keep a few close friends throughout life, I've seen it happen with other people too.
3. Work
I guess most stories have been told here by other people. An overview of the "Overheard at work" thread over in the MMM forum would be a nice summary of my experiences. The sad thing is, I'm stuck with these people for the next 8 years or so. On the bright side, I love some of the personalities there and laugh alot everyday. But the ERE side of me is having trouble maintaining the non aggression treaty and keep my mouth shut when, for instance last week, a coworker laughed at me from seing my old Nokia phone of 10 years. I've just come to terms with being "the weird one", but the anger building inside of me can only be released during boxing practice and that's not a good sign is it? I try not to take things personally, but lets face it. It does get personal at times and the last thing I want is to come off as being rude, arrogant or in any way make unnecessary enemies. Some of my more remote coworkers even pity me at this point, thinking I must be in financial trouble. I frequently find myself having to defend why I don't have a car, kids or a new phone. Argh! (I usually manage to get heads nodding or laugh it off though). But still, argh!
I guess my question is not so much about anger management because I do manage it quite well I think, but more in terms of how to configure ones own mindset in order to minimize the anger/frustration that comes with being misunderstood, ignored, trash talked or otherwise socially mistreated. I don't feel sorry for myself, I just want to get better at dealing with this.
As a first step, I thought ranting about it in the ERE forums might help. I think it did!
Anger management :)
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IlliniDave
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Re: Anger management :)
Just accept things for what they are. Anger/frustration stems from wanting the present reality to be something that it isn't. Stop wanting that. Your primary beef seems to be with what other people think and do--something that is out of your control. So accept that others are who they are, allow them to be themselves so long as they are not causing you direct and significant harm, and even enjoy them; or go be a hermit. That sounds callous and snarky, but it's a distillation of something it took me about 20 years to work out on my own. Those people aren't out to get you, they're just being themselves. Anger is a response to hurt, and you're allowing yourself to be hurt by them not following your script for the world. That's a choice.
Re: Anger management :)
Regarding friends and work:
You could start asking yourself the following: Why do you even care?
Also, in the name of self-improvement, learn to manage your anger before it balls up into something that needs treatment.
Simple Mindfulness exercises will teach you to recognize when you get your jimmies all rustled. Acknowledge that someone insignificant thinks differently about you, than you do, and then give absolutely 0 fucks about that particular conversation. See it for what it is, and let it go. It doesn't matter 2 years down the road and so it doesn't matter now.
If you always treat others with respect, even people who cannot do anything useful for you, you will always be in a moral position to give absolutely 0 fucks about what others think. Just don't let them know, people like to feel important.
If you family insists on giving you stuff you don't want or need, donate it and be happy that their wasteful ways will at least benefit someone less fortunate than you. Of course it takes time to get out the door and actually haul stuff, but still...
Have you told your family directly that whatever they give you will be donated away? Have you told them you don't want to dust around, maintain, move about, look at, and care for all that stuff that you didn't ask for?
\sarcasm
If you want to be really crude, you could buy some of them a ton of gravel for christmas and have it dumped in their driveway. I mean, they MIGHT need it for that new patio, that they might build in a few years. Maybe. You never know right? 'better be prepared.
\sarcasm
You could start asking yourself the following: Why do you even care?
Also, in the name of self-improvement, learn to manage your anger before it balls up into something that needs treatment.
Simple Mindfulness exercises will teach you to recognize when you get your jimmies all rustled. Acknowledge that someone insignificant thinks differently about you, than you do, and then give absolutely 0 fucks about that particular conversation. See it for what it is, and let it go. It doesn't matter 2 years down the road and so it doesn't matter now.
If you always treat others with respect, even people who cannot do anything useful for you, you will always be in a moral position to give absolutely 0 fucks about what others think. Just don't let them know, people like to feel important.
If you family insists on giving you stuff you don't want or need, donate it and be happy that their wasteful ways will at least benefit someone less fortunate than you. Of course it takes time to get out the door and actually haul stuff, but still...
Have you told your family directly that whatever they give you will be donated away? Have you told them you don't want to dust around, maintain, move about, look at, and care for all that stuff that you didn't ask for?
\sarcasm
If you want to be really crude, you could buy some of them a ton of gravel for christmas and have it dumped in their driveway. I mean, they MIGHT need it for that new patio, that they might build in a few years. Maybe. You never know right? 'better be prepared.
\sarcasm
Re: Anger management :)
Giving and receiving seems to get discussed here a lot. Family is tough one and depends very much on your circumstances and personal relationships. For most people cutting family loose is not an option like it is for annoying colleagues or friends that you've outgrown.
My family (including extended family from SOs side) are still engrossed in consumer society, and will be until external factors forces change, I don't see their wasteful (in my eyes) giving and receiving abating. I know I can't stop them from buying me gifts and even though my SO is far from consumerist (she's very frugal), her personality type means she places significant value on giving to others, whereas I am more "selfish" in many respects. In order to maintain harmony at home a degree of compromise is required. I ask relatives to buy me things that I need, rather than let them guess and buy me stuff I just end up returning/giving away. In return I give them things I think they may get significant utility out of. It's better than rocking the boat. I have no interest in upsetting my loved ones.
I don't have an issue with how my lifelong friends manage their finances, I've given up trying to convince them that ERE is the solution to the world's problems. Some of them don't even think there are any problems to solve so long as they can afford their next video game, maybe they're right and we're wrong! If people want to know about ERE, they will seek it out for themselves when they are receptive to new ideas. My friends know I gave up the car and cycle everywhere and they know I choose to save >60% of my income and we have entertaining debates about which life is better, the guy that earns 100k, works 6 11 hour days and drives an Audi TT and saves nothing (pfft!) vs the guy that lives on 8k, saves 16k but only works 6 hours a day 5 days a week. I don't think differences in attitudes towards lifestyle is all that important for certain friendships. You just need to have enough shared interests to justify the time and effort required to maintain those relationships. When it's no longer worth it, due to negativity directed at your lifestyle or lacking in mutual interests, just cut them loose and focus your time on establishing more meaningful relationships.
I think the main challenge is that living by ERE principles can be alienating if you look down on others from an ivory tower. See friends for what they are. It is possible to establish yourself a network of like minded individuals from a financial perspective, however this won't be easy given our time's cultural norms. This requires significant effort on your part, be proactive in seeking out these people.
As for colleagues, I try to avoid discussing my personal life and financial plans. I learned quickly that preaching at work was getting me no where and obviously negatively effected working relationships. There's only so many times you can hear the common excuses and objections to reaching financial independence before it gets old. Even before I had the paradigm shift from consumer to ERE principles, my working relationships were superficial, now I just spend less time talking about my sweet iphone upgrade and try to steer conversations towards remaining shared interests only, or I just keep quiet.
TL;DR version:
It just sounds you need to find your renaissance man counterparts. Until then, you have the ERE/MMM forums
.
My family (including extended family from SOs side) are still engrossed in consumer society, and will be until external factors forces change, I don't see their wasteful (in my eyes) giving and receiving abating. I know I can't stop them from buying me gifts and even though my SO is far from consumerist (she's very frugal), her personality type means she places significant value on giving to others, whereas I am more "selfish" in many respects. In order to maintain harmony at home a degree of compromise is required. I ask relatives to buy me things that I need, rather than let them guess and buy me stuff I just end up returning/giving away. In return I give them things I think they may get significant utility out of. It's better than rocking the boat. I have no interest in upsetting my loved ones.
I don't have an issue with how my lifelong friends manage their finances, I've given up trying to convince them that ERE is the solution to the world's problems. Some of them don't even think there are any problems to solve so long as they can afford their next video game, maybe they're right and we're wrong! If people want to know about ERE, they will seek it out for themselves when they are receptive to new ideas. My friends know I gave up the car and cycle everywhere and they know I choose to save >60% of my income and we have entertaining debates about which life is better, the guy that earns 100k, works 6 11 hour days and drives an Audi TT and saves nothing (pfft!) vs the guy that lives on 8k, saves 16k but only works 6 hours a day 5 days a week. I don't think differences in attitudes towards lifestyle is all that important for certain friendships. You just need to have enough shared interests to justify the time and effort required to maintain those relationships. When it's no longer worth it, due to negativity directed at your lifestyle or lacking in mutual interests, just cut them loose and focus your time on establishing more meaningful relationships.
I think the main challenge is that living by ERE principles can be alienating if you look down on others from an ivory tower. See friends for what they are. It is possible to establish yourself a network of like minded individuals from a financial perspective, however this won't be easy given our time's cultural norms. This requires significant effort on your part, be proactive in seeking out these people.
As for colleagues, I try to avoid discussing my personal life and financial plans. I learned quickly that preaching at work was getting me no where and obviously negatively effected working relationships. There's only so many times you can hear the common excuses and objections to reaching financial independence before it gets old. Even before I had the paradigm shift from consumer to ERE principles, my working relationships were superficial, now I just spend less time talking about my sweet iphone upgrade and try to steer conversations towards remaining shared interests only, or I just keep quiet.
TL;DR version:
It just sounds you need to find your renaissance man counterparts. Until then, you have the ERE/MMM forums
.
Re: Anger management :)
This is THE issue (other than family medical problems) that has caused me the most stress since becoming a minimalist and pursuing early retirement.
Realizations that led to coping in a healthy manner, in order:
-------------------------------------------
I care deeply what the people in my life think of me.
I can't "decide not to care" and still be true to who I am. (Some people can.)
The more I love or admire a person, the more hurt I am by their negative judgments.
I cannot control their reactions to any of my choices.
Even through copious amounts of well-thought-out spin, I can't control their reactions! (Yes, this sucks.)
I can control my response to their negativity, though, and manage my emotions that way.
Wow! It turns out that this is the best life strategy for most stressful situations: focusing on what I can and cannot control.
Applying my analytical skills to what really makes people happy - others and myself - is the best way to find said happiness.
People do not give me gifts because they're consumerists. People give me gifts because they love me, and they want gifts from me in return because they want to know that I love them back.
If I'm pissed about getting gifts, I have an acceptance problem. I should work on gratitude and on accepting people's demonstrations of love for what they are instead of becoming irritated that they didn't say "I love you" in my preferred way.
If I'm pissed about giving gifts, I have a communication problem. No one should ever need a present to know that I love them. I should provide handmade gifts when necessary, and communicate my love more clearly and more often.
No matter how happy I am about the path I'm on, I was not put on earth to convince other people of the rightness of it.
In fact... I really ought to shut up about retiring early and the joys of owning less.
Acting like it's my job (or even my joy) to teach people this stuff does not go over very well.
It makes me come across as a smug, self-righteous bore rather than an educated woman who found a good way to live life.
And it pushes people away, which is the exact opposite of what I wanted to begin with: to connect. (And maybe admiration?)
Besides, how would I feel if someone treated me like their ignorant padawan without my having asked for any help? Wow... yeah.
From now on, I'm just going to do my thing and live the best and happiest life I know how.
And if anyone asks me questions about how I got that way, I will answer them gently and humbly.
It never goes well when I don't.
Plus, I'm still far more ignorant than not.
Realizations that led to coping in a healthy manner, in order:
-------------------------------------------
I care deeply what the people in my life think of me.
I can't "decide not to care" and still be true to who I am. (Some people can.)
The more I love or admire a person, the more hurt I am by their negative judgments.
I cannot control their reactions to any of my choices.
Even through copious amounts of well-thought-out spin, I can't control their reactions! (Yes, this sucks.)
I can control my response to their negativity, though, and manage my emotions that way.
Wow! It turns out that this is the best life strategy for most stressful situations: focusing on what I can and cannot control.
Applying my analytical skills to what really makes people happy - others and myself - is the best way to find said happiness.
People do not give me gifts because they're consumerists. People give me gifts because they love me, and they want gifts from me in return because they want to know that I love them back.
If I'm pissed about getting gifts, I have an acceptance problem. I should work on gratitude and on accepting people's demonstrations of love for what they are instead of becoming irritated that they didn't say "I love you" in my preferred way.
If I'm pissed about giving gifts, I have a communication problem. No one should ever need a present to know that I love them. I should provide handmade gifts when necessary, and communicate my love more clearly and more often.
No matter how happy I am about the path I'm on, I was not put on earth to convince other people of the rightness of it.
In fact... I really ought to shut up about retiring early and the joys of owning less.
Acting like it's my job (or even my joy) to teach people this stuff does not go over very well.
It makes me come across as a smug, self-righteous bore rather than an educated woman who found a good way to live life.
And it pushes people away, which is the exact opposite of what I wanted to begin with: to connect. (And maybe admiration?)
Besides, how would I feel if someone treated me like their ignorant padawan without my having asked for any help? Wow... yeah.
From now on, I'm just going to do my thing and live the best and happiest life I know how.
And if anyone asks me questions about how I got that way, I will answer them gently and humbly.
It never goes well when I don't.
Plus, I'm still far more ignorant than not.
Re: Anger management :)
@IlliniDave's answer above is perfect.
Print it out and put it in your wallet for future reference. I'm going to do the same. I've known it for a long time but I seem to forget it at critical moments.
Print it out and put it in your wallet for future reference. I'm going to do the same. I've known it for a long time but I seem to forget it at critical moments.
Re: Anger management :)
Agree with IlliniDave's answer completely. I have gotten pretty good at being the weird/odd one that rides the bus to work, has a cheap/small phone, brings his lunch to work. Most of my examples would stem from work since I don't do much other than work/home/work/home, etc.. The in-laws have completely accepted how odd the DW and I are. 
I try to take things completely objectively when someone might make a snide remark or start taking about something I find completely ridiculous (say the pres debate last night). I mentally step back and just think to myself "this is an interesting interaction" and leave it at that.
I try to take things completely objectively when someone might make a snide remark or start taking about something I find completely ridiculous (say the pres debate last night). I mentally step back and just think to myself "this is an interesting interaction" and leave it at that.
Re: Anger management :)
+1IlliniDave wrote:Just accept things for what they are. Anger/frustration stems from wanting the present reality to be something that it isn't. Stop wanting that. Your primary beef seems to be with what other people think and do--something that is out of your control. So accept that others are who they are, allow them to be themselves so long as they are not causing you direct and significant harm, and even enjoy them.
This thread would also apply: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6533
Last edited by Tyler9000 on Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cerberusss
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:38 pm
Re: Anger management :)
Wat helpt me, is acknowledging that they're somewhere on their path. Perhaps they're on your path, but not as far along. You were there as well
Re: Anger management :)
@GandK,
Thanks, that was very well put, I need to think on how to apply your advice in my life.
Thanks, that was very well put, I need to think on how to apply your advice in my life.
Re: Anger management :)
I've been through a lot of this. Envy drives a lot of this alienating behavior. ,also fear of what isn't understood or recognized.
You need to chill out and stay on track.
None of these people are your friends. You'll find that out if you stay on your path another twenty years.
Don't get mad. Do you want to be like them so you can be happy and popular?
After I have walked away from socializing with my friends, siblings, cousins etc., I realize they were all a sorry bunch and I'd rather not listen to their whining about not being able to retire. Or worse, be the object of their envy.
Edit- my linked in page has dozens of connections like this. I get profile views regularly from the biggest detractors of the SClass movement. I'm sure they're disappointed.
You need to chill out and stay on track.
None of these people are your friends. You'll find that out if you stay on your path another twenty years.
Don't get mad. Do you want to be like them so you can be happy and popular?
After I have walked away from socializing with my friends, siblings, cousins etc., I realize they were all a sorry bunch and I'd rather not listen to their whining about not being able to retire. Or worse, be the object of their envy.
Edit- my linked in page has dozens of connections like this. I get profile views regularly from the biggest detractors of the SClass movement. I'm sure they're disappointed.
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jacob
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Re: Anger management :)
It could very well be that this is just a transitory problem. Once you become known as "the weird one" or F&F finally grok that you don't really care about gifts, etc. this should become less of an issue.
IOW, you suddenly changed. They didn't. The disparity hasn't been resolved yet. Once it is, it'll be back to normal. If not, you'll find new F&F. As will they.
Not saying that this happens automatically. It may require a few strategic jabs.
IOW, you suddenly changed. They didn't. The disparity hasn't been resolved yet. Once it is, it'll be back to normal. If not, you'll find new F&F. As will they.
Not saying that this happens automatically. It may require a few strategic jabs.
Re: Anger management :)
Thank ya'll for some good and supportive pointers. Looking back 2 years I'm starting to realize my values have changed quite a bit. Maybe I just need some time to get comfortable with the new me as well.jacob wrote: Not saying that this happens automatically. It may require a few strategic jabs.
jacob, could you give an example of what would be a "strategic jab"? For example, I've messaged a long time friend of mine a couple times the past weeks as an invite to spend time together, but he couldn't find time and hasn't gotten back to me. Traditionally I would keep sending him invites every now and then and we would end up spending time together and keeping the friendship alive. He would invite me too and we do have a lot of fun when together. Now this is one of the guys that might not really fit into my future network of friends because of reasons previously mentioned (he shows a lack of respect) AND because I'm seing a tendency of him not really getting back to me as much as he used to. So in order to avoid getting the blame for not keeping up the friendship, I've invited him. At this point I will just stay quiet for now. Maybe he'll get over whatever issue he might be having with me and get back to me, maybe not. I don't really care any more. Was this what you meant by the "strategic jab" term? The old me would have tried resolving this "invisible" conflict but in this case it might end the friendship in a bad way.
Re: Anger management :)
Best way to get cash for gifts is to not be in the same geographical location as your family.
An example of a strategic jab that I've done is just ask my coworkers if they're saving up much or not overspending. I don't actually ask actual numbers but I'll act concerned "Oh, wow, you bought that? I hope you're doing okay with your savings & investments!" Puts them a little on the defensive maybe, so they question my choices less. But I'm pretty subtle about it and it's fine if they think I'm a bit weird anyways, so I don't sweat it much.
An example of a strategic jab that I've done is just ask my coworkers if they're saving up much or not overspending. I don't actually ask actual numbers but I'll act concerned "Oh, wow, you bought that? I hope you're doing okay with your savings & investments!" Puts them a little on the defensive maybe, so they question my choices less. But I'm pretty subtle about it and it's fine if they think I'm a bit weird anyways, so I don't sweat it much.