A model of marriage

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7Wannabe5
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:50 pm

I agree that open dialogue is the amiable path out of relationship gridlock. The way it works is rather analogous to the method a frugal person might use to deconstruct a specific "need" they were fulfilling or planning to fulfill in the marketplace. "I need a Ferrari." becomes "I value excitement, speed, the color red, and the ability to exert control over power." and then a variety of options for otherwise fulfilling the desire at lower expense can be brain-stormed. Thus when two individuals in a relationship deconstruct their specific needs, they may find that they have more common ground on which to reach agreement. For instance, the desire for 3 or 4 kids rather than just 1 or 2 might have to do with wanting feeling of "coziness" or "more the merrier" that could be achieved with smaller house, hobby of quilting and/or larger extended social circle.

However, I don't agree that this process will always lead to solution inclusive of maintaining the relationship, or "the relationship such as it is under current terms." The truth that may come out is that there is something(s) one or both of the partners value more than the relationship. For instance, in my marriage I was Susan and my ex was Jake (except even further apart in preferences!!-lol), and once our children had achieved a reasonable level of maturity (19 and 16), I determined that I valued my sexuality more than my marriage. I suggested option of open marriage, but my ex said he was "too American." OTOH, our sexual incompatibility was not our only issue, so it is difficult for me to say whether I would have been more flexible under conditions where all other things were ideal.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:42 pm

My point being that individuals likely have some sort of core values system that they form prior to ever entering into marriage, that will inform whether or not they would ever place the value of any marriage above other values. For instance, if you had asked me when I was 14 whether I would prefer to never have sex, never be married, or never have any children. Marriage would have definitely been #3 with no doubt whatsoever, and sex would have been deeply regretted only very slightly edged out #2. And this is still how I would order them.

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Dragline
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by Dragline » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:08 pm

Ego wrote:
ERE attracts those who value independence, which can be a very good thing. But there is such a thing as needing too much independence where capitulation (as dragline put it) is impossible.
Come to think of it, you could say I have a "capitulation" budget. And from a happy wife, happy life perspective, its well worth every penny! :lol:

Then again, it's not really that large of a budget deviance given our joint preferences.

scriptbunny
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by scriptbunny » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:44 pm

I cannot fathom an individual so neutral on having/not having kids that it does not exceed their capitulation budget. Maybe it is just because I am very strongly on the wants-kids side of the spectrum, but are there really people out there who are like, "Babies? I mean if my wife wants them I guess."

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Re: A model of marriage

Post by jacob » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:28 pm

@scriptbunny - Absolutely. There are Wheaton levels for all dimensions that concern kids, e.g. parenting, family, DNA, legacy, future environment, ... and so on. Compromise is possible as long as the relative difference isn't perceived as crazy, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWQsgTD3ifY

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Re: A model of marriage

Post by scriptbunny » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:59 pm

I guess. This is outside the context of the marriage perhaps, but the thought of a child being raised almost twenty years by a parent who slightly resents them and only had them to keep their partner marginally happier is pretty depressing. I'm sure it happens, but it would seem a better outcome for everyone if partners self-sorted according to that metric instead of trying to "make it work."

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FBeyer
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by FBeyer » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:23 am

scriptbunny wrote:... but are there really people out there who are like, "Babies? I mean if my wife wants them I guess."
Yes. Generally we call those people men.
However, men are wonderfully adaptive in a lot of ways.

Whomever is naked with us right not, is by definition the most beautiful women in our world 'cause our worlds shrink down to just two people. In the same vein, as a rule of thumb, no man is ready to have children before he gets to hold his little infant in his arms, at which point he becomes ready instantaneously. BAM! IT'S ON MOTHERFUCKER! THE FIGHT STARTS NOW!

Very few men come to resent children that they kind of sort of wanted, but most men come to resent a woman they only kind of sort of wanted in the first place.

From my personal observations anyway, I obviously cannot tell if my experiences are tinted one way or the other.

So although I'm being somewhat facetious I have to acknowledge that there ARE in fact people who are like: If my wife wants them I guess. :)

scriptbunny
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by scriptbunny » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:56 am

I find that to be such a boring and non-exculpatory stereotype. I know men who actively want children, I know men who actively don't. Either of those is fine. And not knowing one's preference is fine too, until they have children. I appreciate that biological mechanisms help to inspire parental involvement, but I still have a hard time believing that someone who was just in it for their spouse is going to stick around when times are tough, either with the kid or with the spouse.

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FBeyer
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by FBeyer » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:14 am

scriptbunny wrote:... but I still have a hard time believing that someone who was just in it for their spouse is going to stick around when times are tough, either with the kid or with the spouse.
We'll see how I fare. How many years do I have to stay with my GF and not-leave my daughter before I pass your test?

scriptbunny
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by scriptbunny » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:43 am

Clearly at least until your daughter is an adult. And ideally you'd be a continued force in her life beyond that. Not to prove to some random person on the internet, by the way, but because she deserves your full love and continued involvement as your daughter.

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FBeyer
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by FBeyer » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:26 pm

That she gets. Every single waking hour. That is kind of the point I'm trying to make.
I really, truthfully didn't know if I wanted children, but that little three year old twerp is the light of my life[1]. And every one ,with one exception, of my friends felt the same about children before and after they got them, hence my line about not being ready until you're holding the infant in your arms.

Men who don't quite know if they want children is not such a bad thing in my experience. Men who evade responsibility are. Those two things should not be confused.

[1] and a complete bitch. Three year olds are tough on the nerves :D

scriptbunny
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by scriptbunny » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:57 am

FBeyer wrote: Men who don't quite know if they want children is not such a bad thing in my experience. Men who evade responsibility are. Those two things should not be confused.
Fair enough. I personally consider it a point of responsibility to sort out those feelings before having a kid, before the decision is final and the commitment locked in. But if other people do not need that and are able to maintain strong, good relationships with their kids and be equal partners in parenting throughout their kid's childhood then clearly they should do what works for them.
FBeyer wrote: and a complete bitch. Three year olds are tough on the nerves
You probably shouldn't call your daughter a bitch, even internally and in jest. The more the association is made, the more the mental pathway is strengthened. And you don't want to actually start believing that your daughter is a bitch whenever she is frustrating you. Parenting with that mindset will be more difficult. Particularly when she is an adolescent or teenager when, if you blurt it out, she'll know what you mean.

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FBeyer
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Re: A model of marriage

Post by FBeyer » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:04 pm

scriptbunny wrote:...You probably shouldn't ...
I'll put that unsolicited lecture down to a cultural misunderstanding... :shock:

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