How do ERE men attract women?

[methpearice]

Do any ERE males here have trouble attracting women? I certainly do. I save up 85% of my income and live a frugal life and women seem to look down on me. My friends tell me to buy a more expensive looking car so that I can attract women and to also buy a modern apartment, but I just cannot do that because I've already committed to my 85% savings rate.

To address this deficiency in female intimacy, I've been visiting massage parlours and paying for the services because it is safe and efficient (these services here are legal and regulated).

My friends tell me that traditional dating and marriage are best for me, but I am very reluctant. I sometimes date women but I don't really progress the relationship any further because I am a commitment phobe.

I am a commitment phobe mainly because commitment decreases freedom. If you marry a female, you suddenly have an obligation, which is similar to a debt. My understanding of ERE is to avoid debt, avoid commitment, avoid obligation, and instead create passive income, which creates choice, options, and freedom.

I suppose I am just keen on hearing what you guys think. I am still reading through the ERE book and hope to find a chapter in there about efficient procurement of female intimacy.

[PulpUser]

There's an online community called "Manosphere" which is about positive masculinity. In today's society, much of what's discussed there is downright taxed as machismo and misogyny, but I found a lot of valid points.

Start with the blog "The Rational Male" (google it). I really believe that any man can have benefits from reading what these guys have to say.

[Sclass]

Just MHO. You seem to have reduced sexual relations down to the minimalist requirement.

If you go into the game looking for a simple exchange of companionship for money, then that is what you will find. There's plenty of that out there. A lot of shallow people working the singles ads and bars are only a little removed from prostitutes.

If you want a true partner you'll need to meet and befriend a lot of women. You can evaluate them as they do you. The ERE friendly teammate is rare but she's out there. I hung around dozens of ladies for several years before I actually found my match. By being friendly I was able to get exposure.

On a low level we are wired up to get a mate who will provide and help us reproduce. For primitive women, well, that means showing a lot of goats, tribal status, colored glass beads. You're probably better off letting those slip by.

My SO is the type who could see ten years out. She was the type who could look past the paint job and see what was under the hood. She also thought about the road ahead. It didn't take a lot of showboating to hook up with her. It took three years of being "just friends."

If you want to just get laid, lease a BMW. Get a few nice outfits. Get on Tinder. Tell lies about your horses at your family's summer home (I actually tried this in college and it worked). Tell stories about how you cannot meet up because your dad wants you to meet with his hedgefund's partners and discuss this quarter's results (I also tried this and it worked).

My dad had a midlife crisis and went through several girlfriends who were half his age before meeting my gold digging step mother. He got a better car, dressed up and threw money around at well planned moments. I kept wondering how he was finding these women. If he could do it, so can you. Garbage in garbage out.

[lilacorchid]

My friends tell me that traditional dating and marriage are best for me, but I am very reluctant. I sometimes date women but I don't really progress the relationship any further because I am a commitment phobe.

I am a commitment phobe mainly because commitment decreases freedom. If you marry a female, you suddenly have an obligation, which is similar to a debt. My understanding of ERE is to avoid debt, avoid commitment, avoid obligation, and instead create passive income, which creates choice, options, and freedom.

I suppose I am just keen on hearing what you guys think. I am still reading through the ERE book and hope to find a chapter in there about efficient procurement of female intimacy.

First of all, please run away from any website/book/person that is affiliated with r/theredpill or calls men alphas or betas or talked about how women use sex as a weapon to control men. Maybe some women do that, but you aren't going to date them long anyway, so it doesn't matter. Women are people, not the enemy or the controller of sex. Once you look at women as people, it's a lot easier to figure out what "they" want. As a person, how do you like to be treated? Kindness? Shared interests?

Second, taking the words from your post, you said you are a commitment-phobe. This will not get you far in a relationship as the vast majority of people date to have some sort of relationship, be it for marriage, sex, or friendship. If you going in to the date or meeting with the idea that if you "marry a female" you are getting the ol'ball and chain, you are probably not going to get that far on that date. If you are looking for someone who, for simplicity, belongs to this forum and shares ERE and FI goals, you are looking at women who could very well look at you as "an obligation, similar to debt". Maybe she is already FI or has a 90% saving rate? At any rate, if she is here, she is most likely intelligent and does not need to grab the first man who smiles at her and settle down.

So where does that leave you? Well, you don't have to be super attractive or rich if you treat people with kindness and respect. Traditional dating, as you put it, is perfectly set up for this. There is always someone in a social group who likes to matchmake, and will invite you to events to get you out there. And because you are a guy who treats women as people and just chats instead of tries to pick up or neg or any of that other alpha/beta/redpill BS, you are already doing better than a lot of jerks that she will meet and date and never see again. Internet dating can be good too. Put up your profiles, state you are frugal and looking for another frugal woman to join you to *insert frugal date idea here* and there won't be any sort of miscommunication where you end up with a materialistic person as a partner.

Some people are going to look down on you for saving 85% of your money, women included. But you don't care about what those women think any more than you care about your friends or coworkers who think that. Your attitude is what is going to keep you from having a friendship (and possibly more) with any woman, including one who is perusing FI. No one likes to be thought of as a burden.

So in short, your attitude stinks and a good woman can smell that a mile away.The good news is you can fix that and you don't have to rely on anyone else to do it!

[Spartan_Warrior]

I used a dating site to find a woman who had similar values to me, wowed her with my amazing personality and many talents, and convinced her to live with me to combine our living expenses for even cheaper living. Looking at my spreadsheet, my annual costs have been about 25% less since I've been dating her, though that may be correlation more than causation.

There are many other threads here about dating and ERE. In this one, I posted a little guide with what worked for me in online dating: viewtopic.php?p=43183#p43183

YMMV.

[Spartan_Warrior]

I will further add: it strikes me what you find most incompatible about ERE and dating is the perceived inability to demonstrate status to potential mates. Now, some will tell you that demonstrating status and social value is not critical to the dating ritual--but I am not one of them. What I will argue is that status can be defined and achieved through other ways than "income/car/mass consumption". Instead, ERE permits other types of status and other social values: "freedom/security/time for hobbies, goals, family, etc." Emphasize those values and achievements--rather than the lack of consumer values--and look for others who share or value the same.

[workathome]

Local semi-active group. If it requires volunteers, the people participating may be on less-selfish end of the spectrum. Environmentalist, pro-life, or animal rights, or something else, etc.

I think you'd be better off going for genuine relationships than putting in the minimum effort for sexual access.

[Dragline]

I tend to agree with Sclass. If you are just looking to have sex for some "cost", you probably won't get more efficient than what you are doing. Living an upscale lifestyle to attract women just attracts women who want the lifestyle and will at least tolerate the person who provides it.

If you are looking for a long-term relationship, you probably need to look for women with similar interests to yours, which you might find by joining some club or activity that you already like doing anyway. In any event, relationships are like playing the lottery. Most tickets are losers, so you have to keep playing to find a winning one. Main difference is that for lottery tickets, the cost is money, but for relationships, the cost is time.

Here are a couple potentially useful articles I ran across recently:

http://www.businessinsider.com/wealthy- ... men-2014-7

http://www.businessinsider.com/lasting- ... ts-2014-11

Of course, the ERE approach is to maximize more than one thing at the same time. Physical fitness would help you both preserve/improve your health and attract potential partners, in addition to preserving your wealth. That's where I would start.

[slsdly]

Here is my perspective as a another single male, who dates very infrequently, but would like to meet someone.

ERE and financial independence have nothing to do with this. There are women out there who are frugal, low maintenance, and whatever your particular desires may be. I have stated quite blatantly on online dating profiles that I pursue ERE at under $20k/yr as one of the things I am doing with my life (with a link to the site, no less). That I am a homebody. That I am an introvert who lacks wanderlust. Not exactly great selling points.

Ensure that you communicate with humour, humility and/or pride (or otherwise some positive form of expression), and there *are* people who will find whatever you are into attractive. If you exude the attitude "most of you will hate me because I live like I'm poor", it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Personally I run with the idea that financial independence will let me remain idealistic and do what I believe in rather than what necessity dictates. That I might not leave North America much, but it makes the blood donor clinic happy that I spend my vacations in beautiful rural parts of Canada instead of Zimbabwe.

(And yes, the part does work. I have gotten plenty of attention from what I have written.)

Anyways, that's my anti "ERE makes me unattractive" rant. I give that pep talk to myself regularly .

Moving along...

I may be making some value judgements here that don't apply to you, but if you are truly seeking an emotionally grounded relationship (from which physical intimacy follows) rather than something a little more, uhhh, simple (which is fine but not what I've interpreted from your post!):

- Stop with the massage parlours. Assuming you masturbate, reduce your frequency. These things sap your motivation to actually go out and meet women (why pay for the cow when you get the milk for free...). I would also expect that similar to porn addictions, they can have an subtle impact on your expectations. Relieving yourself is healthy, natural and to be encouraged, but there isn't what you want to solely tie your reward centres in your brain to.

- Remember that you are a human being and you are not a special snowflake. There are people like you. They are here on this website. They are out there in the real world. Your values are important, they matter, and dammit, they make sense! You cannot and do not need to please everyone. While I have no doubt as to your friends good intentions, they are not giving good advice as they are projecting their values onto you or what they perceive to be society's values. We are a counterculture, embrace it and be confident that those values are just.

- Be patient. ERE doesn't happen in a day. Finding a partner is no different. The primary difference is that you have a higher probability of it happening spontaneously given it could be the next girl you meet.

- If you aren't happy, figure that out in parallel (or first). In my opinion, a partner will not solve your problems for you. As you have pointed out, you have commitment issues. An ideal partner will enrich your life, will support you in those moments when you need it most, etc. If you want to stick to the ERE analogy: you are not taking on debt, you are looking for an asset. There is a price to be paid to acquire that asset, but you want it because the benefits it confers are greater than the costs and risks of possession .

- While you didn't single out divorce, I see it gets significant attention on the board. You cannot eliminate this risk entirely; I think you need to accept that not everything in life is certain. Just like how you must come to terms with that your ERE finances are not 100% buy and forget! Personally I try to focus on people who believe in commitment, in loyalty, in compromise, in duty. That passion can, in part, spring from dedication. You and your ideal partner have to put in effort to make things work because we don't live in a fairy tale land. Somebody posted trying for round two on financial independence after getting wiped out by a divorce (among other issues); they didn't give up and I'd like to think I would be the same! That said, if you aren't willing to put in the work and don't want to assume *any* risk, stick to prostitution.

I calculate my own probability of "dying alone", as it were, to be quite high. But it has little to do with ERE.

[Gilberto de Piento]

Try a website like OKcupid. If you let readers know you are into low priced fun and read other's descriptions carefully you can find women who share your interests. I'm not saying dating is easy but women who aren't all about spending money are out there.

That said, a savings rate of 85% is hard core and I'm imagining that you are giving up a lot to achieve it. You might have to spend a little money on food, drinks and fun, especially in the beginning of the relationship. Dating doesn't have to be expensive but it is almost always going to cost more than watching tv and eating rice and beans by yourself.

[stand@desk]

Very interesting thread. One thing for INTJs is that they love freedom more than most but are still human so they need some companionship physical and emotional. Very few can go without companionship as it is a biological human need for physical and mental health. A plan for finding a partner to serve this purpose will be great for one's long term health. Saving and investing money is great but saving one's health is just as important if we want to live long (which is one of the pillars of the point of ERE). That's why I feel it's in our best interest to find a long term monogamous partner. The trade-off is worth it.

After a few years of dating a significant other, a relationship becomes one more comprised of companionship compared to one more of physical needs. If the companionship is still good but maybe the physical interest is less desirable than when you first met, one may consider ending that relationship and starting a new one to get that physical excitement again. And if that is the path one chooses at some point they will re-enter the common denominator of companionship again and why keep repeating the cycle over and over again if companionship was good with the first partner? (Ending relationships when the companionship is no longer salvagable makes sense to me because it will hurt one's long term health instead of help it.)

Realizing this, repeating the cycle over and over again might be good for short term physical experiences and one's ego (what most do when they are young), but it will not provide stability, confidence, grounding and respect from family/society in general (what becomes more desirable when one gets older). I realized this and decided marriage was acceptable to me when previously I may have preferred to live (at least in my mind I would have) in the "freedom" lifestyle.

[Egg]

85% is pretty serious. I do around 70% but I date a lot. I'm sure I spend more per lay than you, but at the same time I love at some level every woman I sleep with and it's more satisfying that way imo. My best advice is don't listen to what women say they want esp. shit telling you to be the typical niceguy. Look around you and observe instead what they go for. You don't have to be a prick but you've got to excite them.

Also, looks matter. Not so much what you've beem given genetically, although I do suspect male models play the Game on easy mode. But rather, go to the gym, be generally healthy looking and dress in clothes that fit (note I'm not suggesting designer labels help at all) and you're golden.

[steveo73]

I'm married however I think good women aren't really interested in how much bling you have. They are interested in a man being financially responsible.

[Noedig]

Here's seconding for SpartanWarrior and Sisdly.

My tip: volunteer.

[billc]

Only warning I would have (for men or women) is if you find a partner who is sympathetic/semi-accepting of your lifestyle but isn't as gung-ho about it, it may lead to issue down the road (people seem to generally expect some level of lifestyle inflation, which is hard to resist for many) (e.g. my wife, who is less frugal than I am, has been running a ~$3k credit card balance w/o telling me about it - she still doesn't know I know).

As for commitment/debts/freedom. Getting married was somewhat a reduction of freedom (but worth the trade off for me) - having a child was a massive reduction of freedom. MASSIVE.

[SilverElephant]

With all due respect to lilacorchid, I'm going to recommend you read The Rational Male. Rollo is actually quite restrained on the whole men/women topic when you compare him to a few others out there who are on the same topic. That said, do not take everything he says at face value, treat his posts like you would treat a philosophical essay on a new topic from an unknown author; i.e. open-minded but do not straight out believe things you read without thinking about them.

The whole buzz surrounding the manosphere/red pill community/line of thought is almost identical to the one surrounding ERE/MMM/etc. Please consider;

- a topic on which there is massive distortion of reality and actual possibilities by the media (men-women-relationships, dating...)
- something seemingly complicated, a "you can't win" game (I don't get women, nobody understands them, ...)
- a few players seem to do extremely well for no discernible reason ("players", but, sometimes, totally average guys reap everything)
- a few people (in this case, mostly men) sit down and think about things, advancing "frameworks" (not explanations) and tips
- a few (even less people) go beyond the tips and go philosophical, down to "principles" that are not governing laws but mindsets that you can freely take and mold to your needs or wants (actual moderate "manosphere" guys)

Think of each of these points as in:
- savings, income, investments
- "rat race", middle-class lifestyle, you have to earn x to live well...
- entrepreneurs, but, sometimes, average-income guys get ahead
- basic tips about savings, investments, finance and retirement (think William Bernstein)
- Jacob or MMM with a mindset

The manosphere is full of guys who are (sometimes rightfully, sometimes not so) frustrated or even angry with women. Don't listen to them. There is a lot of alpha/beta male talk that feels like fluff in one's head until you realize all the more down-to-earth guys are trying to say is:

- it's far better to not be in a relationship than in one that makes you unhappy
- you can only find someone who'll take you as you are if you are like you are, i.e., beyond prostitutes, massage-parlors and flings, it's really about finding a best friend which you can only do if you are who you are
- don't bend over backwards for a girl (just like she shouldn't for you)

The reason most red pill bloggers sound so extreme is because most guys are in need of absolutely brutal methods to get them anywhere with women. Just like most middle-class consumers are in need of absolutely brutal methods to get them out of their habits.

Notice that most methods needed by middle-class consumers appear basically normal to us here on this forum. Likewise, most "methods" recommended in the manosphere sound perfectly normal to me, e.g. the three points above, or the fact that I will leave a date if the girl is more than ten minutes late without an explanation.

The best way to find a woman is to be out there to a degree that's OK for you (varies depending on personality) and to have occupations that you'd rather engage in than puzzle over some girl's "games". The idea here is to up the number of potential encounters but have a very robust filtering method.

[frihet]

Do this 21 day challenge. You will radiate sexual presence when you stay sexually active, (can be done with yourself). But don't come for many days.

Women will feel it. Trust me I've experienced it. I also like Eggs advice follow them as well and you will be magnetic and like mentioned go for more alternative/volunteering women. The gold digging barbie type will be almost impossible without inflating your lifestyle.

The challenge cost you nothing. Although the retreats with this kinky looking neotantra teacher costs a lot ha ha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_ndudCHbmg

[JohnnyH]

It's not going to be easy, 90%+ of people are obsessed with money on some level. Women looking for children (most) it's much higher than 90%, in my experience... Even if you get lucky and find one that isn't a consumer at heart and isn't status obsessed, most cannot solve problems without money and would therefore be terrified of life without a constant flow (earned in the way of their parents, aka a job). Look for a female with experience in agriculture, building, engineering (not easy).

I've attempted to convert females to ERE and I thought I sold them in the same way Spartan_Warrior apparently did. In retrospect they were just saying what I wanted to hear to please me and 4/4 proved they had contempt for ERE (and me) by: maxing out credit cards, buying SUVs, not tracking spending, $500/mo eating out, driving as little as 0.5 miles and as much as 40 miles to work 5 days a week, so on and so on. I imagine every one of them wouldn't have even pretended if I wasn't earning with FT job. All apparently thought they could change me somehow... Multiply the difficulties if she has close family, the family will almost certainly despise you for not slaving in misery for their princess to live in thoughtless, wasteful "comfort."

At this point, I refuse to "take her word" for it. I will not commit to marriage or kids until I am retired and they know that I'm committed to ERE and that they have nothing to gain by divorcing me.

Yikes, that's enough on ERE relationships for me today.
*The above applies to some extent to men too, please don't derail with rhetoric.

[Spartan_Warrior]

I've attempted to convert females to ERE and I thought I sold them in the same way Spartan_Warrior apparently did.

Nah, that's just it--I didn't have to sell or convert. My GF already lived frugally. She had paid off her student loans before we met, drove a used car (late model compared to mine from last century, but still), and to this day has no debt save that car loan. She doesn't even own a credit card despite my urging her to get some credit to her name!

She's low maintenance, basically. Takes joy in simple things like nature, animals, gardening, and painting, and shares interests of mine that I would've been spending on anyway, like video games, movies, etc, so the net added expense is minimal. She also brings tangible skills to the table like (excellent) cooking and lends an extra hand in a lot of ways. As someone else put it, she is absolutely an asset, not a liability.

And she didn't need any convincing. (Well... not to live this way, at least. It took a little convincing that I should be a partner in it.)

It's true, those girls you dated thought they could change your dastardly ERE ways, but by the same token, you thought you could change their mainstream consumer ways! A doomed proposition.

My advice is to find one that doesn't need changing. How to do that? I've outlined what I think works. I sort of agree with (some of) SilverElephant's post, particularly the part about increasing the number of encounters and enforcing a strong filter. For me, as a lazy introvert, online dating helped up the encounters, and being totally upfront and honest about my lifestyle and what I want--celebrating who I am with pride, not hiding it or faking--served as the filter.

Multiply the difficulties if she has close family, the family will almost certainly despise you for not slaving in misery for their princess to live in thoughtless, wasteful "comfort."

This part, though, I've found very true. I personally shrug it off, but it's stressful to my GF that her parents don't like pretty much anything about me. I think it's a common issue, though, not limited to ERErs. I mean, they made a Ben Stiller movie series out of the idea. Sometimes you gotta pick your battles.

[IlliniDave]

Seems to me you're thinking about it in a way that is not conducive to attracting women. Not many women I've met want to be selected on the basis of being an efficiently procured source of female intimacy. Be yourself, be patient, and don't prejudge. Be open to possibilities. Having a partner is not the same thing as having a debt. If you select intelligently, what you gain from the relationship will far outweigh the "cost" of your obligations.