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slimicy
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by slimicy »

bigato wrote:At least one of us, most likely both of us is missing parts of the theoretical "truth"..
I disagree with your basic assumption that there is only one correct answer. There isn't one set "truth", and while I'm advocating for Paleo, and that grains are bad for a vast majority of the population, that doesn't mean that someone can't be healthy while eating them.

Re: Genetics

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/are-huma ... z2v0Zw9BnZ

Dragline
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by Dragline »

Or it could be that theory A is correct under certain conditions or assumptions, theory B is correct under another set of conditions or assumptions, and there simply is no theory C. Not everything is subject to some master explanation, as intellectually comforting as master theories may be. Most complex systems are highly dependent on initial conditions and random factors.

I find this guy, strange as he is, has great practical advice and experiences, although I don't think I would agree with his master theories. He is well-read on nutrition, though and puts a lots of current things in their proper historical perspectives, as well as taking up Ego's point that the best thing to eat for a person may change over time depending on environmental factors and goals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ4cRRrAqEM

Chad
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by Chad »

Dragline wrote:Or it could be that theory A is correct under certain conditions or assumptions, theory B is correct under another set of conditions or assumptions, and there simply is no theory C. Not everything is subject to some master explanation, as intellectually comforting as master theories may be. Most complex systems are highly dependent on initial conditions and random factors.
I think this is very true in our current understanding of a lot of complex systems. I'm currently listening to a book called "The Age of the Unthinkable." It has a lot of crossover with "Anti-Fragile." Anyway, it uses an example of how a certain wildlife/fish management theory in the 1950's was supposed to be able to predict how many we could harvest without damaging the base population. This was based on the big variables such as food, environment, etc. Unfortunately, it failed miserably, as these complex systems can change drastically even from small variables or variables inside of variables.

I do think we will eventually figure out our complex bodies and be able to determine exactly what each of us needs (probably varies from day to day based on environment and activity), but from my point of view we are just scratching the surface of this knowledge.

Basically, we know not to eat Doritos and to eat minimally processed food for certain. All the other information could be true or could be true just for some people, but the research doesn't seem definitive yet.

unknown_nobody
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by unknown_nobody »

I came across this site and found it interesting:

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional ... paleo-diet

Here is a link to the book upon which these nutritional views are based:
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html

This man (W.A. Price) conducted a comparative study of many cultures, both isolated and modernized, with regard to nutrition. I've only begun to study this, but I've come across some really interesting stories about indigenous peoples who virtually never experience tooth decay or brush their teeth. When exposed to modern "Western" foods, tooth decay rapidly sets in. Has to do with the calcium-phosphorus ratio in the bloodstream apparently.

jacob
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by jacob »

Dragline wrote:Or it could be that theory A is correct under certain conditions or assumptions, theory B is correct under another set of conditions or assumptions, and there simply is no theory C. Not everything is subject to some master explanation, as intellectually comforting as master theories may be. Most complex systems are highly dependent on initial conditions and random factors.
Nope! If your master explanation captures the key structure [of the feedback loops] of the complex system, the stability is, in fact, very robust to whatever parameters and starting conditions you use. If this wasn't the case it would be impossible to drive a car through traffic.

Example: Thermostat that measures the temperature of the radiator and controls the radiator's on/off switch.

This would be theory A.

On the other hand, if your explanation misses key parts of the complex system, it does indeed become very sensitive to the parameters and optimization becomes almost futile.

Example: Thermostat that measures ambient light in the room (instead of the temperature) and controls the radiator's on-time.

This would be theory B.

Now, you can combine these two (you can ALWAYS combine theories even if the result looks ugly) and get a more accurate theory C, but pragmatically speaking theory A would often be enough. In addition, due to human limitations it is often better to go with a simpler and less accurate theory if it's easier to understand. Machines don't have this limitation and there are standard ways to build big theories out of "sub-theories". This is how expert systems are made.

theanimal
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by theanimal »

unknown_nobody wrote:I came across this site and found it interesting:

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional ... paleo-diet

Here is a link to the book upon which these nutritional views are based:
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html

This man (W.A. Price) conducted a comparative study of many cultures, both isolated and modernized, with regard to nutrition. I've only begun to study this, but I've come across some really interesting stories about indigenous peoples who virtually never experience tooth decay or brush their teeth. When exposed to modern "Western" foods, tooth decay rapidly sets in. Has to do with the calcium-phosphorus ratio in the bloodstream apparently.
The actual Weston A Price had views that are much different than the foundation's today. He did not emphasize the consumption of meat at all and considered many native groups who had vegetarian diets to be some of the most physically healthy people he had ever seen. There is quite a large disconnect.

unknown_nobody
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by unknown_nobody »

theanimal wrote:The actual Weston A Price had views that are much different than the foundation's today. He did not emphasize the consumption of meat at all and considered many native groups who had vegetarian diets to be some of the most physically healthy people he had ever seen. There is quite a large disconnect.
According to my reading so far, that is not at all the case.
Check this out:
"Out of Africa: What Dr. Price and Burkitt Discovered in their Studies of Sub-Saharan Tribes: These researchers noted the greater strength and health of the meat-eating tribes vs. the vegetarian tribes they examined" :
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional ... -of-africa

theanimal
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by theanimal »

I don't have the desire to search through the material.

Anyways I've realized, like stated above, there is no point in making claims like, "this diet is the best!" You can find countless examples for multiple diets of people who exemplify high marks of health. It all depends or nobody is completely right.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think even processed foods could be healthy IF you processed them yourself. For instance, if I want to eat a shortbread butter cookie but I have to care for the cow, milk it, churn the butter, grow the wheat, harvest the wheat, grind the wheat, tap the maple tree, cook down the sugar, mix the ingredients, gather the firewood, forge the metal for my baking sheet, etc. etc. Well, I would likely choose to just go fishing with a net (or use some of the invasive species of European earthworms that have taken over most backyards in America over the last 100 years for bait) and bake up some of the delicious giant chemically induced tetraploid mutant squash some previous human did me the favor of breeding for my calorie-acquisition needs over 100 years ago.

OTOH, if I drive my car over to the Whole Foods prepared bar and have virtually unlimited funds to spend then I have to otherwise limit my choices. (I once put myself on a diet that I had to walk the 2 miles to my local Whole Foods and could only spend $2 on prepared food. I think I lost 5 lbs. in 3 days.)

Chad
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by Chad »

Except for the fact that the cookie would still have boatloads of sugar, which is terrible for you no matter how little or how much it is processed.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Human breast milk has a much higher sugar content and lower protein content than cow's milk. I fed both my kids to 30 lbs at a year on nothing but me and generic Cheerios (I think baby food is a total rip-off scam) but occasionally I would give them a bottle of plain yogurt mixed with sugar and hot water. I'd say breast milk is about as sweet as your average latte but less sweet than your average mocha cappuccino. Pretty much the case that natural tendency towards having a sugar tooth in mammals is directly correlated to relative brain size vs. muscle mass. It has something to do with only sugar molecules being able to pass through the barrier and feed brain growth and development.OTOH, people with bi-polar disease during manic episodes often consume large quantities of sugar to fuel their hyper-high level of brain activity and obvious contributor to diabetic disease and variety of other inflammatory illnesses when used in excess and people often choose to abuse alcohol because it's happy-then-soporific effect is very much like that of breast milk (which is where the phrase "nurse a glass of alcohol" likely originated.)

Anyways, what's good for a baby human isn't necessarily good for an adult human but I would be hesitant to completely cut sugar out of my diet if I hoped to maintain some level of brain growth/maintenance into old age, especially since neurological diseases are so devastating. Of course, if you are more concerned with being as muscular as a lion rather than more clever than a monkey than maybe a meat only diet would serve.

Chad
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by Chad »

My point wasn't that we should eat zero sugar, but that the processing isn't the culprit that produces the negative effects for sugar.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Right. I guess I was making the fairly trivial point that if you actually do the work of processing your food yourself, your daily caloric intake needs would go up and, therefore, also your daily caloric "safe" intake level of sugar. But, I was also making the more important point that there's still a whole lot of unknown gray when answering the question "Is it healthy for a human to ingest?" between the emphatic "Yes!" for breast milk and the emphatic "No!" for cigarettes.

IlliniDave
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by IlliniDave »

I use a similar nutrition regimen, but not quite so restrictive as paleo. I encountered a lot of paleo enthusiasts in the Crossfit community. I basically follow something close to the Zone diet with some sensitivity to paleo principles I guess is the way to say it.

I am not 100% strict in this, but I try to stick to it 80-90%

I avoid refined/processed carbohydrates. I try to get 2/3 or more of my carbohydrates from colorful and/or leafy green vegetables, and one third from select fruit (grapefruit, berries, apples, occasional oranges, etc.). Relatively little from legumes or starchy vegetables. I go out of my way to consume "healthy" fats (nuts, olive oil, fish oil, avocados, etc.), and I go for moderately lean animal protein (although with the way the cost has spiked lately, this is a shrinking facet of my diet, and I'm relying more on turkey and eggs). I don't avoid dairy, but I wouldn't call it a staple either. So it winds up being similar in marco- and micro-nutrients to paleo. I'm not real precise with quantities but it's probably pretty close to an even split between calories from protein, carbs, and fat, but the carb calories are probably lower than the others.

I've been doing this for 4 years. It allowed me to get off statins, lose/maintain weight, cured acid reflux, and greatly reduced the effects of seasonal allergies.

Every now and again I still break down and get a pizza or a cheesecake or a blueberry pie. :)
Last edited by IlliniDave on Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dragline
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by Dragline »

On this topic, just read this recently: http://www.amazon.com/Wahls-Protocol-Pr ... s+protocol

It's really directed primarily at MS sufferers, but there's also a lot of other interesting information for the casual eater trying to reduce inflammation, and she talks about some studies that are being done. Worth borrowing, not buying, unless you have MS.

I also agree that the average person's goal is probably "live a long time in very good health and then die quickly" -- and that that's extremely difficult to test in anything that resembles a controlled manner. And may have little to do with short-term absolute performance or appearance metrics.

J_
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by J_ »

I consider myself as a guinea pig. My 15 year period of disciplined eating of simple, plant based food has worked out fine for me. Together with enough sleep and plenty of sports my body is in very good condition.

In this world of manipulating industries, and controversial reports the most simple way is to figure out yourself what is good of your health. Therefore my consideration being my own guinea-pig.
I know bigato has done that, who else is doing the same?

Felix
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by Felix »

Dragline wrote:On this topic, just read this recently: http://www.amazon.com/Wahls-Protocol-Pr ... s+protocol

It's really directed primarily at MS sufferers, but there's also a lot of other interesting information for the casual eater trying to reduce inflammation, and she talks about some studies that are being done. Worth borrowing, not buying, unless you have MS.
On MS there is also the Swank diet which seems to have a great success rate.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/treatin ... k-ms-diet/

Matt_Adventuror
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by Matt_Adventuror »

This is a cool discussion.

One of my big concerns with lowering my expenses is being healthy and eating well doing so. One of my biggest expenses right now is food. I'd call myself strict paleo most of the time, not because I want to lose weight or follow a diet, but because it gives me energy and makes me feel good.

I really love living in the USA and it has many advantages over living in Australia, especially the cost of living, but the food here is often very questionable. The farming practices in the US, along with GMOs, HFCS, etc, mean that much of the stuff called food here shouldn't really deserve that label. I struggle to eat out without feeling very sick afterwards. I find myself unable to eat about 99% of the food for sale.

I know I can eat the diet I do now but much cheaper by buying whole grass-fed cows, vegetables straight from the farmer, freezing more food and generally buying in bulk, so this might be my strategy moving forward. Dropping into Wholefoods every day is a real budget killer for me...

I'm also a major Crossfit nut, and that is another couple of $1000 a year, and then there is my supplements, occasional yoga, recovery stuff like massage/chiro, and so on. I do spend a lot of money on my health. To be healthy to the level of health I'm accustomed while lowering my cost of living is one of my major challenges.

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jennypenny
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

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BRUTE
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Re: Paleo diet: No carb/ legumes/ nuts?

Post by BRUTE »

brute is categorically against frankenfoods/ingredients that technically fit this or that dietary restriction. it feels like "making smoking healthy".

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