ERE and Pets

Simple living, extreme early retirement, being wealthy, ...
Hottentot
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Hottentot » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:33 am

Spartan_Warrior wrote:I can see why she feels somewhat betrayed though. She evidently had the same impression as you. To a long-deliberating INTJ like me bringing up an idea and agreeing to move forward with it are two separate things...
Yes, you need to be clear about that with her. Most people will have the same impression.

Seneca
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Seneca » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:28 pm

A JRT is a difficult breed, not only hyper but destructive. They were bred to chase, dig out and kill rodents.

Like Jacob said, dogs are a big lifestyle commitment. They're a bigger impediment to travel than even children, for example. If they are that negative to you and she's that positive, I consider that a serious relationship issue.

Definitely something you must work out.

lilacorchid
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by lilacorchid » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:18 pm

I wouldn't ask her to sell her animals and get a new animal (this would be a pet TOGETHER, no matter how you guys decide to care for it) unless things are really serious.

These are good things to find out now, even if it seems terrible. You will either work it out and be happy or you will not and find someone better for each of you. It is better now then when you living together.

JasonR
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by JasonR » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:09 pm

I have no right to offer advice or gossip about your private life. And yet I shall. How are you not concerned that she's so eager, ecstatic I think you said, to get rid of her old herd of presumably loved reptiles? Just like that. Mention a puppy and she's already got a table selling small dinosaurs to strangers.

She'll drop her lizards like a sack of dirt once a better opportunity shows up...who does that to a pet? Hopefully you don't have any friends better looking than you. I've removed my gravatar picture for the safety of your relationship.

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bigato
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by bigato » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:26 pm

JasonR wrote:I've removed my gravatar picture for the safety of your relationship.

LOL, This is the best quote in ages. Should turn it into a signature! :)

SkaraBrae
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by SkaraBrae » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:49 pm

Spartan_Warrior wrote: I never would've expected a (hypothetical) dog could undo a relationship. Sigh.
Better a hypothetical dog now than a real one down the road, or something even more life-impacting.

I second JasonR's questioning of her eagerness to sell her existing reptiles, although I suspect she is wrapped up in the honeymoon stage hormones of "twoo wuv" at the thought of moving in with you. Bear in mind, one couple I know is in the process of reluctantly rehoming her very difficult cat to her parents because it won't tolerate her fiance. They are 15,000% in love, as most engaged couples are, but this is still really, really hard for her. As in, she still is going around telling everyone it's "just visiting Mom and Dad for a little while", when it's obvious to everyone it's not and cannot come back. (They're planning on kids in the future.)

Before getting too far into the planning to move in together stage with your belle, I'd probe deeply about her expectations of what life living together will be like, what kind of lifestyle you will share, how much you will travel together (or apart), what kinds of vacations you'll take, how much time you will spend together, what kinds of things you will do, who handles what kinds of household tasks once you share a space, how much she expects each of you to work, etc. Listen closely to the answers and feelings you hear being expressed in response. Contemplate (although NTs don't need to be told to mull things over and forecast probable future outcomes!) and come to your own conclusion.

I suspect you will find some unrealistic fantasies when you do this, if you can get her to be actually honest. Most people have them -- the point is that we talk about them with our partner and realize them for what they are. And if it turns out you're not right for each other, yes, it's better to find out sooner than later. I know your relationship isn't near this stage yet, but I'm always amazed at the number of people who never discussed kids, careers, gender roles, or finances before getting married. Recipe for disaster. Though neither my husband nor I are religious, I made sure we attended a marriage education/preparation program put out by a local church before we tied the knot. He will still tell you it is one of the best things we've ever done together. It is well worth the money to attend such a program.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:19 am

Well, after a very rocky start to the weekend, I think we've smoothed things over, insofar as we're no longer fighting or talking about breaking up. (For the record, this was our first such major fight since we became official in December 2012.) On the other hand, she has not budged an inch in terms of her desire for a JRT puppy, she still seems to be avoiding any hint of compromise or even talking about the problem (which is what I find childish), and the only real decision we reached is that we won't be moving in together any time soon.

Although JasonR's comment did make me laugh my ass off (and curious to see said gravatar pic!), I tend to agree with SkaraBrae in terms of her eagerness to sell the reptiles. I think the whole pet situation has been, not the only, but one of the major sticking points for moving in together and I think she was excited at the thought of having that resolved--especially in her favor.

When she told me she was going to sell the reptiles, she noted that she had already been getting burned out on them even before I mentioned anything. Also, the reptiles are more of a hobby than real pets, even for her. She breeds and sells them at reptile shows (and has tried to convince me that I should like them because she is able to cover her expenses and even cut a profit this way--which is a decent point, and more than can be said for a dog).

Finally, it's worth noting that she recently (as in a few months ago) lost her childhood Jack Russell Terrier. She lives with her parents and presumably they won't let her get another one while living there. So I think that whole "replace the deceased pet" urge is playing a role as well.

(Not gonna lie, I also think the fact that she lives with her parents is playing a role in contributing to a certain level of immaturity--not only in this pet situation, but in other ways I've noticed. Another reason I wanted her to move in with me, or at least out of there.)

We attended the reptile show Saturday and she was able to sell some--but not all--of her geckos. Afterward she said this reinvigorated her interest in breeding them somewhat. For my part, it made me (a little) more comfortable with the reptiles. I'm now thinking the small dinosaurs might be the better alternative after all. (Though, I have not made up my mind!!)

One result of all this is that we are talking a little more about the kind of stuff @SkaraBrae mentioned, in terms of our future lifestyles and stuff like that. We're still not on the same page, but I think we're both talking about the same book at least. I think a large part of her resistance is still based on skepticism that I'll be able to retire early, leading her to believe we'll be "waiting" for something that never comes. Like I said, she doesn't understand that "failure" for my ERE plan would mean a delay of one or two years.

Anyway, sorry, it seems I've turned this into a journal thread instead of the original topic...

SkaraBrae
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by SkaraBrae » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:43 pm

Honestly, in terms of impact on your lifestyle, my bet is the reptiles would be less invasive than, well, any dog or almost any other pet except maybe fish. And if she is able to make them mostly self-sustaining, so much the better. My husband's Magic: the Gathering card hobby is like this, so while I would rather that the money he spends on them goes elsewhere, I realize he's getting very good value out of what he does spend and that large parts of it are self sustaining. (f/ex: go to tournament -> win prize of store credit -> use store credit for next tournament/more cards. Take cards you won -> trade them for better cards -> go to tournament -> rinse and repeat.)

The part about her losing her dog recently sheds a LOT of light on her stubbornness about a JRT in particular. The only advice I can offer on this is to wait this out longer and see if she still feels the same a few months down the road.

You mentioned she lives with her parents. Has she ever lived on her own or with roommates? If not...be prepared for some massive upheaval if you do move in together. She's not just learning and growing in your relationship, she's also learning how to be a self-reliant adult. I went straight from my parents' home to moving in with my boyfriend (we rented an apartment together), and the first four months were BRUTAL. We survived and are now happily married, but we're also both radically different now than we were then. We grew together instead of apart -- not everyone is so lucky to have that basic compatibility and share that kind of commitment. And not everyone wants to patiently wait for their partner to grow up in certain areas. (Also, if she's never been on her own, be prepared for her lifestyle discussions/plans to change once she hits "the real world" and has some more experience under her belt.)

Forgive me for the unsolicited and possibly irrelevant relationship advice. Please feel free to ignore if it's unwarranted. I am glad you are getting a clearer picture of what's actually going on with her, though, and hope everything works out for the ultimate best for you both.

dragoncar
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by dragoncar » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:00 pm

workathome wrote:Women like little dogs as surrogates for children.
Me too... much cheaper than children. Considering a dog once I retire (no time for one now so I'd feel terrible leaving it cooped up all day).

Or maybe just a small-scale dog walking business!

Anyways, I jumped the gun and haven't read all the posts here. Hoping the answer is that they are well within my budget. Not to sound cold hearted but I'm pretty sure I could handle putting a pet down rather than incur large medical expenses near end of life.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:33 am

@dragoncar: I derailed my own thread. I think the general conclusion was that pets are a relatively small, scalable expense financially, but can have big impacts in terms of lifestyle, depending on the pet, its needs and lifespan. My personal conclusion was that I'm not ready for a pet because I want to travel after I retire. The rest of the thread is just me venting about my troubles reaching a compromise with my girlfriend, who wants a Jack Russell Terrier puppy.

@SkaraBrae: We both lived on our own, with roommates, throughout college, and then moved back in with parents afterwards (surprise, we are both 2008 graduates). She's been there since. I saved up and bought a house where I've lived alone the last two years. Neither of us has ever lived with a significant other. We're both aware that there will be what we call an "acclimation period" after such a significant lifestyle change. That was yet another of my points, actually--that we needed time getting used to each other before even thinking about introducing an animal.

I'm with you at this point--she seems content to let the issue lie for now, so I'm going to do the same. Maybe after a few more months, the whole "must replace my JRT" urge will have subsided enough to maybe reach some reasonable compromises.

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Ego
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Ego » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:06 pm

SW, I'm glad you posted this because I've long been curious about my tenants obsessions with their pets. It prompted me to look into it further.

PDF http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/nichola ... al2008.pdf

Why do people have pets?

1) As a surrogate for human contact, interaction, and companionship.
2) As protection.
3) As an impetus to go out and interact with other humans or walk.

It won't be long before robots will be assuming these functions without needing to be fed, groomed, quieted or cleaned up after.

Surrogate for contact. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNw4oicWmWU
Protection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZPRsrwumQ
Go for a Walk: Combine the two videos above. Now imagine it in human doll form.

We attribute human characteristics to non-human animals or things (anthropomorphize) for two reasons.

1) Societal needs: To make up for inadequate connection with other humans
2) Effectance needs: To understand, control and predict our environment.

Those who anthropomorphize not only believe their object (pets) have human characteristics, they believe they have moral agency. Consciousness, intention, desire and regret are all characteristics people project onto their pets.

So why should I care? If someone seems to overly anthropomorphize or have a great need for a pet, it may indicate a problem I should be aware of. If I am curious as to why they're doing it, I may be able to help.

Seneca
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Seneca » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:43 pm

Boston Dynamics has done some amazing stuff.

My DW is pet crazy, and I tell you, there is no way a robot would supplant it for her. An example- motorcycles are arguably the "robot" equivalent of horses. She loves horses, I love motorcycles.

Spartan- take note, there is a good chance she's repressing.

Hottentot
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Hottentot » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:05 am

There are people who love dogs/cats and people who love animals.
I love both LOL

But seriously. I know crazy people who think their dogs are people, they even let the dog sit in the front seat of the car while they seat on the back!!@$%

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Ego
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Ego » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:33 pm

At risk of beating a dead cat....

Start at about 46 min :30 sec

http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/

EnglishSaver
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by EnglishSaver » Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:45 pm

Pets are a big responsibility so I think people should think before they buy one (or in a perfect world look for a rescue dog) as you need to think about their food, care, training classes and vet's bills/ insurance.

I have a rescue JRT and she was a pain when she was a puppy so maybe adopting a slightly older JRT dog of about 2 years old might be easier as they may have been toilet trained, able to walk on a lead etc...

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Ego
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Ego » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:59 pm

Cat bites linked to depression....
If you are a woman who's been bitten by a cat, there's nearly a 50 percent chance that you will be diagnosed with depression at some point, the study suggests.
http://www.popsci.com/article/science/c ... depression

lazyboy
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by lazyboy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:56 pm

@Ego
1) As a surrogate for human contact, interaction, and companionship.
2) As protection.
3) As an impetus to go out and interact with other humans or walk.
1) Societal needs: To make up for inadequate connection with other humans
2) Effectance needs: To understand, control and predict our environment.
sorry but I don´t get your points. To me this looks like you say everyone with animals has to compansate for something.

1. there may be some poor humans but most people with animals have more social contacts than people without.
2. you missed the point that some just like natur and animals. Just as others like to travel or read books.
3. what about just beeing used to beeing around animals. We had animals as long as I could remember. Rabbits (yes we ate them), fish, dogs and so on.
4. last but not least, what about people that just take responsibility? Like the neighbor who found the cats in a trash bin? Buy the way that´s how I got my dog because someone told me this poor creature is going to the dog pound.

Maybe I´m doing you wrong but to me your points sound the same way as someone without children telling someone else why he got some.

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Ego
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Ego » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:19 pm

I see what you mean.....

Those who anthropomorphize their pets are compensating for something. Not everyone who has a pet talks to it like it is the reincarnation of grandma.

Everywhere we look we see encouragements to get pets. Animal lovers claim amazing benefits to owning a pet, many of which I am sure are true. It is very rare to hear a dissenting voice. People get really upset when one is raised so most media outlets prefer not to publish about it because it only upsets their readers/watchers.

I guess I've been posting them here as a way to question why it is that we've come to regard pets in the way we do. No offense intended.

jacob
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by jacob » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:52 pm

Hehe, some people have children for those reasons as well.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2014/ ... rocessing/

... which is why my dog is smarter than your honor student :-D

JeanPaul
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by JeanPaul » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:33 am

I think the big mistake that is made with pets is making a short-term decision for a very long-term result. "Oh, the kids want a kitten - it's so cute and it will teach them some responsibility." But then the kids go away to college, the kitten grows up, and you're stuck with an ornery old cat for 10 years.

I mean, that happened to me, but fortunately my parents love my two cats. But it can be much worse for a dog, because you have to walk them and spend lots of time with them - the cats just roam around the neighhborhood making trouble.

As for cost, I think it can be minimal - you're not required to get the pet massages (real thing!) and expensive death-postponing treatment that some owners get.

MSfreeinHou
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by MSfreeinHou » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:36 pm

One of the biggest reasons I want to retire is so that I can have a dog without guilt that I have to leave the poor thing home alone all day. It's such a personal choice, like having children. They are expensive but they provide so much joy if you do want them.

Open Space
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Open Space » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:47 am

Spartan_Warrior wrote:Well, after a very rocky start to the weekend, I think we've smoothed things over, insofar as we're no longer fighting or talking about breaking up. (For the record, this was our first such major fight since we became official in December 2012.) On the other hand, she has not budged an inch in terms of her desire for a JRT puppy, she still seems to be avoiding any hint of compromise or even talking about the problem (which is what I find childish), and the only real decision we reached is that we won't be moving in together any time soon.
Not sure where you are now in this relationship at this point, but in my experience pets can be as serious an issue as children for a couple. Debates over pets are the ONLY serious disagreements my husband and I have had in almost 20 years - and that was over how many to have. (he won - we only have 2). This is an especially big issue for people without children. A friend once told me that after having a child you will never love your pets quite the same way and it's true. Children give you perspective. The responsibility of caring for a pet is trivial compared to a child, and that shapes your feelings as well.

That said, I'm a cat person (and thankfully DH also likes cats). They are a ongoing source of joy and entertainment. They provide a constant reminder to enjoy the present moment and not take things too seriously. They also become part of the family in their own way. If one person feels this way, and the other thinks pets are a nuisance, you need to have some serious discussions. Anyway, don't take it lightly.

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Ego
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Ego » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:04 am

Open Space wrote:This is an especially big issue for people without children. A friend once told me that after having a child you will never love your pets quite the same way and it's true. Children give you perspective. The responsibility of caring for a pet is trivial compared to a child, and that shapes your feelings as well.
I don't doubt that children add perspective to life. I wonder how much pet ownership skews perspective.

Why people care more about pets than humans. http://www.wired.com/2015/04/people-care-pets-humans/

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Ego
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by Ego » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:09 am

Evidence is mounting

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cat-parasit ... zophrenia/

"Cat ownership in childhood has now been reported in three studies to be significantly more common in families in which the child is later diagnosed with schizophrenia or another serious mental illness," the authors reported in a press release.

In a second recent study, A.L. Sutterland from the Department of Psychiatry at the Academic Medical Centre in Amsterdam and colleagues analyzed the findings of 50 published studies to confirm that T. gondii infection is associated with mental disorders.

Results showed that an individual infected with T. gondii was almost twice as likely to develop schizophrenia. They also found an association with addiction and obsessive-compulsive disorder, but say that the findings should be approached with caution.


T. gondii is also linked to Parkinson's
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20350582

and Alzheimers
http://journals.lww.com/alzheimerjourna ... mer.1.aspx

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jennypenny
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Re: ERE and Pets

Post by jennypenny » Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:52 pm

Maybe it's just that people with mental disorders are more likely to like cats. ;)

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