So - I'm 56, too late for ERE, but on track to FI in a few years when my kids finish college and my house is paid off. If I had to, I could retire today, but it would be a very frugal dicey retirement - waiting just 5 years or so will make for a comfortable one.
I'm single, and recently been dating a guy who, at 51, has been retired and then returned to the work force. He's never been married and has no kids. He had a good job with the city and took an early retirement after 20 years. Unfortunately, he was financially unsophisticated and put all his money in the market before the crash (and, I suspect, pulled it out near the bottom). (He also spent most of his several years of retirement taking care of a sick family member who eventually died, so he really didn't have as much fun during that time as he had planned.)
So, he took all his money and paid cash for a nice (but affordable, at the bottom of the market) loft apartment. Then he got a new job just as his money was running out.
Now - mind you, I'm not considering this guy as some future mate or anything. His relationship track record is such that I'm pretty clear this will just be a fun thing for now, but nothing I could count on long-term (not that I'm really looking for that myself right now).
But a conversation we had yesterday got me thinking about how I view potential mates. He said that his goal in life was to die with one bounced check (i.e., to spend every cent he has before he dies). And I'm thinking, "this is a guy who needs to be saving his pennies so he can afford to retire again in the future, or at least cut back the long hours he works now". And since he owns his own place outright and has no debt (that I know of?), he really could achieve this in a few years if he put his mind to it.
Now - I'm not opposed to a certain amount of Carpe Diem. In fact, the thing I like about achieving FI is the ability to do just that. But it makes him sound like a guy who thinks buying nice stuff or expensive trips is more important than regaining his freedom - not an attractive quality.
I'm frugal but definitely not cheap. I think he confuses the two, like many people do. And it gets me thinking - when I DO meet a guy that I'd like to have a long-term relationship with, this stuff is going to matter - a LOT.
So - any thoughts on how to go about evaluating dates for their financial attitudes, without grilling them?
Dates and their retirement plans/money attitudes
I usually don't talk directly about my ere plans, because most people just don't get it. Instead I talk about the things I want to do when I retire, which seems to be an easier way to make someone understand your future plans and intentions.
People who are bad with money normally make it clear one way or another pretty quickly, usually by complaining about their debts. So you tend to be forewarned before deciding to go into something serious...
People who are bad with money normally make it clear one way or another pretty quickly, usually by complaining about their debts. So you tend to be forewarned before deciding to go into something serious...
Look for continuity.
People often like to talk about where they've been and what they've done. You'll have to change the subject. Move the conversation to the future. Ask where they're going and why. What are their plans. How do they envision their future.
Then take a look at their lifestyle, their decisions, their choices, their actions and ask yourself if they align with what they said they want their future to look like. Will their present actions get them there?
The fact is, their goals will change. So will yours. That's not really what's important.
What's important is the question of whether they are able to work toward something at all, or are they the kind of person who is always reacting but never initiating. If they are easily distracted and pulled off course - no matter what the course - then no amount of agreeing in advance is going to do any good. Look for continuity. Not perfect continuity, just consistent motion in a particular direction.
People often like to talk about where they've been and what they've done. You'll have to change the subject. Move the conversation to the future. Ask where they're going and why. What are their plans. How do they envision their future.
Then take a look at their lifestyle, their decisions, their choices, their actions and ask yourself if they align with what they said they want their future to look like. Will their present actions get them there?
The fact is, their goals will change. So will yours. That's not really what's important.
What's important is the question of whether they are able to work toward something at all, or are they the kind of person who is always reacting but never initiating. If they are easily distracted and pulled off course - no matter what the course - then no amount of agreeing in advance is going to do any good. Look for continuity. Not perfect continuity, just consistent motion in a particular direction.
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secretwealth
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:31 am
I'm married so it isn't an issue personally, but I do think one needs to consider financial attitudes as one factor when assessing a potential mate.
To answer the question why, I'd say--why not? We scrutinize mates based on their physical appearance, political ideas, religious beliefs, and cultural/ethnic background--but arguably one's financial literacy and attitude to money has a much more direct impact on your life than these other things, so why shouldn't it be a consideration when assessing a mate's suitability?
So I'd say it's important to understand a mate's relationship to money not because it will impact your own life, but because it is part of who they are. I certainly think someone who wantonly spends money to attract social status (your boyfriend obviously didn't do this, so sorry if I'm getting sidetracked) is a less attractive mate than someone who spends responsibly and carefully. Just like an uber-religious Jesus freak or someone with a physical deformity is less attractive, so too is someone who doesn't know how to manage money.
To answer the question why, I'd say--why not? We scrutinize mates based on their physical appearance, political ideas, religious beliefs, and cultural/ethnic background--but arguably one's financial literacy and attitude to money has a much more direct impact on your life than these other things, so why shouldn't it be a consideration when assessing a mate's suitability?
So I'd say it's important to understand a mate's relationship to money not because it will impact your own life, but because it is part of who they are. I certainly think someone who wantonly spends money to attract social status (your boyfriend obviously didn't do this, so sorry if I'm getting sidetracked) is a less attractive mate than someone who spends responsibly and carefully. Just like an uber-religious Jesus freak or someone with a physical deformity is less attractive, so too is someone who doesn't know how to manage money.
The number one cited reason for divorce is money problems. I don't know if money is just a convenient, culturally accepted, excuse, or if it really comes down to it. I suspect the latter.
My wife and I lived together with separate finances for several years. After marriage we did detailed financial planning and combined finances which led to a breakthrough in our relationship. I will tell you we got lucky. Had we not been compatible and able to agree on long term goals like FI/ERE, I don't think the relationship should've continued and that would've been a hell of a choice for newlyweds to have to make.
My wife and I lived together with separate finances for several years. After marriage we did detailed financial planning and combined finances which led to a breakthrough in our relationship. I will tell you we got lucky. Had we not been compatible and able to agree on long term goals like FI/ERE, I don't think the relationship should've continued and that would've been a hell of a choice for newlyweds to have to make.
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frugaladventurer
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:05 pm
Ego Master's post above says it all:
"What's important is the question of whether they are able to work toward something at all, or are they the kind of person who is always reacting but never initiating. If they are easily distracted and pulled off course - no matter what the course - then no amount of agreeing in advance is going to do any good. Look for continuity. Not perfect continuity, just consistent motion in a particular direction. "
Current date guy seems like a reactor - no real firm plan in place.
"What's important is the question of whether they are able to work toward something at all, or are they the kind of person who is always reacting but never initiating. If they are easily distracted and pulled off course - no matter what the course - then no amount of agreeing in advance is going to do any good. Look for continuity. Not perfect continuity, just consistent motion in a particular direction. "
Current date guy seems like a reactor - no real firm plan in place.
Since I have moved to Bulgaria 2 years ago, I was already working on reduced cost of living. I met my girl, who is quite frugal. Her younger sister, big money squanderer, is in Bulgaria for a few days and causing misery as usual. With her pointy 'analysis' she is causing problems just as the previous time and convinced my girl she needs to have a car since she is walking all the time. And that we should have a different apartment with a nice kitchen.
And of course.. I'm cheap since I control the budget: 1000 euro's a month (excluding rent since we don't pay any) and the rest of the money (3750 euro's) goes to the ERE account. When I heard it yesterday I was really pissed, although I don't get angry quickly. Especially since I'm borrowing 3000 euro's to her blood relatives and not her sister, even though she makes something like 2000 euro's a month (outside of bulgaria). But she blows it all.
So I'm really questioning what the future is going to be for us. I love my girl and it would break my heart to break hers, but having more financial responsibilities is exactly the oposite of where I want to go.
Another part of the deal is kids.. If we would get kids.. I would do it for my girl, but not for me. I like my spare time and I work quite a lot (from home) so having less time, more stress, more responsibilities and obligations is not something I'm looking forward to.
So I'll see what will happen. To be honest; I would not mind being on my own again. Having the freedom to do what I want and when I want it. To make quick decisions and to act upon it. To be free. Also if I would get into a new relationship, I want to have someone with her own money and doesn't squander it. I don't want any form of dependence.
But breaking the heart of my girl.. it already makes me sad when I think about it. I can also ensure everyone she isn't as superficial as I make it sound. She is very kind and very helpful to everyone. She is no gold digger.. she is a genuine lovely being.
ps:
sorry for hijacking this thread
But I fully understand the problem of the TS. Checking for ERE qualities in a future mate is important.
And of course.. I'm cheap since I control the budget: 1000 euro's a month (excluding rent since we don't pay any) and the rest of the money (3750 euro's) goes to the ERE account. When I heard it yesterday I was really pissed, although I don't get angry quickly. Especially since I'm borrowing 3000 euro's to her blood relatives and not her sister, even though she makes something like 2000 euro's a month (outside of bulgaria). But she blows it all.
So I'm really questioning what the future is going to be for us. I love my girl and it would break my heart to break hers, but having more financial responsibilities is exactly the oposite of where I want to go.
Another part of the deal is kids.. If we would get kids.. I would do it for my girl, but not for me. I like my spare time and I work quite a lot (from home) so having less time, more stress, more responsibilities and obligations is not something I'm looking forward to.
So I'll see what will happen. To be honest; I would not mind being on my own again. Having the freedom to do what I want and when I want it. To make quick decisions and to act upon it. To be free. Also if I would get into a new relationship, I want to have someone with her own money and doesn't squander it. I don't want any form of dependence.
But breaking the heart of my girl.. it already makes me sad when I think about it. I can also ensure everyone she isn't as superficial as I make it sound. She is very kind and very helpful to everyone. She is no gold digger.. she is a genuine lovely being.
ps:
sorry for hijacking this thread
But I fully understand the problem of the TS. Checking for ERE qualities in a future mate is important.
@frugaladventurer
One tactic that I have used successfully is to loan/give new people copies of Your Money or Your Life and then see how they react over time. This avoids both grilling them and the need to reveal anything more about yourself unless/until you're ready. "Here's a book I like..." An intimation that this important to you will also help you judge from their reactions how seriously they are taking you. It also provides them with a very complete exposition of the thinking to react to, probably more than could be provided over several conversations. If they give it back without really reading it, bad sign. If they devour it and want more, good sign. Then, look for the actual life changes of reduced spending, increased savings, cheaper happiness, etc.
Most people one is likely to meet have never been exposed to this FI/ERE information, just as I hadn't been before I first read YMOYL and, I suspect, as many here hadn't been at an earlier time. Jacob also read the books at the right time. Most adults don't know this stuff and don't live this way, so most parents don't raise their kids this way. Schools and colleges don't teach it, most newsmedia never refer to it. So, one has to expect that their lives will at first be messier financially. But the real question is, how will they live after they have had the opportunity to learn? One cannot know how they would think/feel/live if they were to learn of it until one actually provides them that chance. Having tried this several times with several people, I observed that the psychological reaction takes place over a period of time. It is a subtle dramatic moment that lasts several months and gives you a real glimpse of the soul of that person.
My GF did not react much at first, and then after a few months she stayed up all night one night (like ALL night) filling in a spreadsheet and crying about how much she had spent. Then, she got it, and she is now more frugal and more focused on FI than me.
The alternative is to try to find people in the ERE Singles forum, but that has historically not worked out well (ever? Is it true that not even a single couple met through these forums?!); that forum has only 5 threads.
One tactic that I have used successfully is to loan/give new people copies of Your Money or Your Life and then see how they react over time. This avoids both grilling them and the need to reveal anything more about yourself unless/until you're ready. "Here's a book I like..." An intimation that this important to you will also help you judge from their reactions how seriously they are taking you. It also provides them with a very complete exposition of the thinking to react to, probably more than could be provided over several conversations. If they give it back without really reading it, bad sign. If they devour it and want more, good sign. Then, look for the actual life changes of reduced spending, increased savings, cheaper happiness, etc.
Most people one is likely to meet have never been exposed to this FI/ERE information, just as I hadn't been before I first read YMOYL and, I suspect, as many here hadn't been at an earlier time. Jacob also read the books at the right time. Most adults don't know this stuff and don't live this way, so most parents don't raise their kids this way. Schools and colleges don't teach it, most newsmedia never refer to it. So, one has to expect that their lives will at first be messier financially. But the real question is, how will they live after they have had the opportunity to learn? One cannot know how they would think/feel/live if they were to learn of it until one actually provides them that chance. Having tried this several times with several people, I observed that the psychological reaction takes place over a period of time. It is a subtle dramatic moment that lasts several months and gives you a real glimpse of the soul of that person.
My GF did not react much at first, and then after a few months she stayed up all night one night (like ALL night) filling in a spreadsheet and crying about how much she had spent. Then, she got it, and she is now more frugal and more focused on FI than me.
The alternative is to try to find people in the ERE Singles forum, but that has historically not worked out well (ever? Is it true that not even a single couple met through these forums?!); that forum has only 5 threads.
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frugaladventurer
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:05 pm
@Learning Apprentice - funny, it is this guy's birthday next week and I thought about giving him a copy of YMOYL. I love that book.
@Bulgaria Novice - kids are a BIG responsibility, you should only have them if YOU want them, not to please your girlfriend. And not just do it to keep your girlfriend if she decides that's what she really wants. BUT - you are young and men sometimes take time to warm up to the idea of having kids. Only you can know if yours is a permanent choice not to have them. (Interestingly, this guy I am dating chose early in life not to have children. Many of his early relationships broke up unpleasantly when his girlfriends figured out he WAS serious about not wanting kids and wasn't going to change his mind.)
@Bulgaria Novice - kids are a BIG responsibility, you should only have them if YOU want them, not to please your girlfriend. And not just do it to keep your girlfriend if she decides that's what she really wants. BUT - you are young and men sometimes take time to warm up to the idea of having kids. Only you can know if yours is a permanent choice not to have them. (Interestingly, this guy I am dating chose early in life not to have children. Many of his early relationships broke up unpleasantly when his girlfriends figured out he WAS serious about not wanting kids and wasn't going to change his mind.)