RADICAL decluttering...with kids

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prosaic
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Post by prosaic »

Anyone else have more than one kid and engage in a radical decluttering phase?
I recently donated about 4 van loads of stuff to a rummage sale, friends, family, and local charities. More is going to a local auction for a charity. I'm at the point where I'm having a philosophical paradigm shift that is about to tip over into a full-blown, aggressive "get rid of it" blitz.
But I have two kids who are clinging to their stuff.
The easy answer is to declutter when they're in school (ages 13 and 10). My 2 year old doesn't notice his stuff being gone, but the others do.
I need practical ideas for philosophical approaches to decluttering, and instilling some values on ownership and simplicity. They don't care about selling stuff and making money. Don't care about having more space in the house ("But we have a big basement and attic -- can't we just put it there?" is the answer I get. We have 5 people in a 1600 sf house and an unfinished 900 sf basement.).
I view this as an opportunity to teach values, and they're reasonable kids. I'm struggling with how to approach this.
They have been great about understanding why we don't buy new stuff, so the inflow of goods has been dramatically slowed down, with their buy-in and in a way that teaches them. Now I need to give them a hook for the existing stuff!
Thoughts?


jacob
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Post by jacob »

What's their incentive for getting rid of it?
Usually stuff-management has only three solutions: Better organization (more frequent cleaning up), less stuff, or more space. Since you're not moving into something bigger, more clean-ups it is. Maybe after that they'd prefer to have less stuff?


Marg
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Post by Marg »

I guess I have an easy time seeing your kids point of view b/c I ended up deciding to skip that step. We aren't going to be moving out of our house for a good long time (bad real estate market -- don't want to sell for what we could get) and we have a lot of storage space. Getting rid of stuff that I bought for a reason and have room for seemed silly. If we were moving we would do a big purge and I would get smaller house, but we're not. It will be straight forward enough to take things to a charity if/when we do move.
Are you going to be moving? Or turning the attic and basement into usable living space? Or changing the attic into the place for the laundry lines ala the frugal zealot? If there aren't any practical constraints and there is room in the attic, well, I can see why they would question it especially if they like their stuff. Great that you raised logical kids who can think independently. Not a bad thing at all :)
My 8 year old daughter is really on board with saving money and she wants to learn how I do it. She's been helping me plan the grocery shopping. We've made a lot of very large cutbacks in spending in the last few months, had a much more modest christmas, etc. The kids have been great about it.... but I think if I told her we had to get rid of a lot of her stuff she would not be happy about it.
The only philosophical argument that would work with her is that we're not using those things very much and they could really help someone who needs them. Helping other people is important to her, so that reasoning would work. I don't plan to do a big purge in the near future, but if we did, helping other people would be the hook.
Another thought is that you could also do a purge in the main house and let them keep control of their rooms and have them packed, if they so desire. That way you can declutter but still allow them to keep things they want to keep (they just have to keep it out of the living spaces).


chenda
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Post by chenda »

When I was about 10 I came home from school one day to find my parents had thrown out vaste amounts of my stuff, including things which at the time I regarded as prized possessions. I was so angry and upset that they had, as I saw it, stolen and destroyed my possessions behind my back. It may have been junk, but it was my junk. Even to this day it makes me angry thinking about it.
So no, I would'nt do that. You've bought the stuff for them, they are entitled to keep it. My advice though woud be to make them keep it all in their bedrooms if possible. After living with the clutter they might see the advantages of dejunking.
And when they turn 18, tell them they've got 6 weeks to clear it or it all goes to the dump :)


prosaic
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Post by prosaic »

@jacob Good points. More frequent cleaning up has been helping -- I gently ask whether they've played with something for a while and if the answer is no, we talk about whether it should go. That helps, but at a turtle's pace. Maybe I just need to accept the slower pace but increase the cleanups.
@Marg My 10 year old is definitely motivated by "what if someone else can use it," though my 13 year old isn't. We've been trying to motivate him by talking about giving him his own room (they share), which can't happen until we declutter a different room.
Long term, we *do* want to turn the basement into a small apartment for rentals/older teens going to college. I'll try tying all these themes in.
Thanks!


prosaic
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Post by prosaic »

chenda, my grandparents dumped my uncle's entire comic book collection -- about 5,000 of them!
My grandpa (a Depression-era saver) smugly told my uncle that he'd finally recycled his "crap" and used the comics to heat the house in the wood stove.
When my uncle explained that the comics included #1 issues of Archie, and a bunch of comic hero-type series I don't remember, and had been valued at 5 figures (this was in the late 70s/early 80s -- I can only imagine the value now...) my grandpa nearly had a heart attack.
I don't declutter things that are important to them. I will throw away pure crap (like cheap goodie bag toys from birthday parties), broken things, etc.


Mo
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Post by Mo »

Prosaic, my opinions: Current societal acceptance of materialism and consumerism is such that presently only a small minority of adults come to realize that one can have more enjoyment or fulfillment by having fewer things. I suspect that many adults don't have the mental capacity to come to this realization on their own (though perhaps they could follow others-- if they lived in a society that was made up mostly of people who tried not to acquire things). Additionally, some who do have the capacity to consider the issue will actively choose to acquire more rather than less.
Thus, it may not be possible to get all of your children on board with the decluttering. I'm not trying to insult your children; some may not be at a stage where he/she can understand your point of view. As an analogy, consider that an anti-materialism/anti-consumerism message coming from one, or even both parents, set against a backdrop of ubiquitous competing messages from almost all aspects of society is somewhat like you telling your kids to believe that the world is flat. Alternatively, perhaps he/she may fully understand your message, but reject it nonetheless. It may not be a battle you can win for all persons. It would surprise me if you could get 4 out of 4 kids to declutter voluntarily.
Some of your children may think similarly to you, and thus if you can expose them to the kind of experiences that allow you to feel secure, or even empowered, with fewer things, you may ultimately help them understand.
For me, I think my acceptance of fewer things came from my exposure to camping and outdoors activities, and exposure to poverty and the underprivileged. I was never poor myself, so exposure doesn't mean that they have to be poor.
Involuntarily throwing things away, might lead to some pretty hurt feelings. I only have a very young child, so I don't know if I'd try the following with an older child or not, but I have wondered how a person might respond to this strategy:
You remove a number of items that seem to be redundant or useless while the child isn't home. You inventory each item removed for your own records. When the child returns, you explain what has happened, and explain that none of the items have been thrown away, just moved to a different location. Each child is given an opportunity over the next 3 or 6 months to ask for any of the items back. If the child can describe the item and wants it back, you give it back, without question. The child doesn't have to justify why he/she wants it back, the child just has to be able to recall that he/she actually owns the specific item. If a person cannot recall owning an item over a 6 month period, it is less likely to have been an important posession.


KevinW
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Post by KevinW »

I'm with @chenda, my parents did the same kind of thing once and I was so mad I couldn't let it go until my 30s. A kid has control over very little in their life, but their junk is one thing they do, and messing with it behind their back is a pretty deep violation.
Also with @jacob. Rather than forcing the issue with "because I say so" or "you'll thank me later," change the household rules so your incentives are aligned with theirs. If this is about mess, enforce strict neatness rules, and try putting stuff in a box for two weeks so they can see how that translates into less unpleasant work. If this is about downsizing, start charging them rent for incremental storage space, and they'll get the idea.


dot_com_vet
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Post by dot_com_vet »

For spring cleaning, we spent $200 on materials and built very nice shelving in the basement. The items we need to keep are nice and organized there. This was critical to have in order to declutter.
Everything else is queued up for garbage/recycler, but that will take a few more weeks to get rid off. (Cans only fit so much.)
IMO, if it's not going to be used, get rid of it. We still have Harry Potter books I'd love to recycle. Libraries are for books, I can't understand owning/keeping them myself.


LiquidSapphire
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Post by LiquidSapphire »

I have a tactic for you to ponder.
Give each child $20. They can buy any toy they want, and the cost is $1 each. Each kid gets to choose the top 20 toys. After they are all spent they may find they want to exchange some, let them, why not. After that, take the remainder, and put them in a box. They have to buy those toys back with their allowance, the price is $1 each. If they aren't willing to spend even $1 on each toy, they clearly don't prize it much. After an extended waiting period, donate.


mikeBOS
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Post by mikeBOS »

Talk of throwing out other people's stuff reminded me of this:
Daughter throws away mother's mattress that was stuffed with $1M


Christopherjart
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Post by Christopherjart »

This topic struck home.
When I was around 10 perhaps 12, my mom decided that I was too old for stuffed animals so she packed my favorite one up (my Ewok) and hid him for the grandchildren. The next day or two I searched the entire house when she wasn't looking or went out for an errand.

I finally found him (you'd say it) in a box between stuff in her tightly packed closet.

I scolded her severely as you could imagine one could for being thoughtless because it was MY Ewok and I loved him. I don't know what she thought, but guess what.

I still have him (he's a little worn out, but I've had him since oh ... whenever it was that The Return of the Jedi was first in theaters. In fact, my collection has grown.

A friend gave me a coca-cola bear about 12 years ago and about six years ago I got another bear as a gift. They aren't clutter and I enjoy looking at them even if I really don't play with them much. :-)

A child should always decide when it is time to give something up, so should adults!


Scott 2
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Post by Scott 2 »

IMO, let the kids keep what they want in their space. If they want to live like hoarders, they get to hoard.
The rest of the house is fair game for de-cluttering. If the kids have something you don't want in a room, into their space it goes.


zarathustra
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Post by zarathustra »

Something that worked in my family was that we were provided certain "storage" containers/shelves/whatever to have in our room and we could keep whatever we wanted as long as it all could be put away neatly in those containers. If we went over the limit, it was time to give some things up and we got to choose.
I also remember things being given away or thrown away without asking me or talking to me about it as I grew up (given to my brothers who ruined them, given to younger cousins, etc).
I think it is important to let them have the power to make the choices about what to keep, but that doesn't mean you should let them become hoarders or have carte blanche. That's not a good lesson to teach them either.


dragoncar
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Post by dragoncar »

Many good points. I don't think anyone has explicitly pointed out (but hinted?) that any sort of forced deprivation could ultimately backfire and CREATE hoarders. If you look at people who grew up in the depression, those are the people who are keeping boxes and boxes of salvaged twine in their attics. Ultimately, the kind of person who "needs" lots of stuff as an adult usually felt deprived as a child.
Although there are many good suggestions are above, I'm not sure there's a good answer. Parents always seem to screw up the balance of child-rearing -- those who had lax parents become tyrants and vice versa (or on a less-extreme scale). How do you meet your child's psychological needs? That's something that will take time, and can't be solved in a mass-cleaning. Of course, if they are already willing to give up their stuff (without excessive coercion), then that would show their needs are met.


DutchGirl
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Post by DutchGirl »

Yup. I also wouldn't do anything behind their backs (except for the two year old, maybe, but you should still not throw away his favorite cuddle). It is their stuff, they get to decide what to do with it. I like Scott 2's approach: their stuff should go in their room, and if that means they live in a mess, so be it. But they get to keep it until they want to sell/give/throw it away.


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jennypenny
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Post by jennypenny »

I could never secretly throw out anything that belonged to my kids. What's the bigger lesson--teaching them to live with less stuff or to respect other people's feelings and property? I can imagine how hurt I'd feel if DH threw out a bunch of my books (without asking) because he thought I didn't need them or read them anymore.
I also think an important skill is learning how to make decisions so you have to let them make some.
FYI, YOU should clean your kids rooms--especially when they are teenagers. (but don't be a snoop or judgemental)


OTCW
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Post by OTCW »

My sister has five kids. If they keep stuff in their room, all bets are off. If it migrates to the rest of the house, it is subject to removal.
Also, decluttering happens by attrition. Forced or natural.
As things wear out, break, or get outgrown (natural) they will be discarded whether or not the kids think of it as decluttering or not.
You can speed this along (force) by telling them they can get one new thing from a list (small, good quality items) by getting rid of two, three or more existing items(bulky, junky stuff).


Marlene
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Post by Marlene »

I second Dragoncar: as a kid my toys got removed twice and since then I don´t like the sight of a lot of empty space in my rooms because it reminds me of that sorry time - equally I foud out where my things went and tried to sneak things back, which I have until today - AND I keep accumulating things because they could be used for my hobbies - so yes, I think force-removing or removing behind the back of things that belong to them definetely can create hoarders later.

In my opinion the only lasting strategy is insight, even a turtle-speed is better than backward speed ;-)


abzu
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Post by abzu »

Throwing out their stuff is just going to undermine their sense of security and control and make them cling to stuff even tighter in the future. It also doesn't teach them respect or how to make decisions. My own hoarding impulses definitely developed due to some big losses when I was a kid. I could certainly give a long litany of all the times stuff was thrown away behind my back. It's traumatic and it won't release them psychologically from the grip of the stuff, rather the opposite.
I used to collect rocks and shells from everywhere we traveled, just normal random stones, and my parents always hated that. But they were meaningful to me. Until eventually, years later, they weren't, and I had a big box of rocks and couldn't remember where any of them were from and they weren't even pretty, so I just dumped them in the woods. But when I was little I would kick up such a fight when my parents didn't want to carry things like that home from trips.
So you have to find a system that works for your whole family, where the kids aren't being undermined but the parents also don't have to deal with excess work taking care of it all.


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