I posted here a while ago on my uncertainty regarding university choice. Since then I've firmly accepted the offer I had from Imperial College London. However, I still don't really feel comfortable with spending the money I'll have to spend on tuition and living costs.
Also, I've done some research into my choice of course, chemistry, and found that the starting salary isn't really any more than that of a humanities graduate. This worries me because I want a decent income to justify the money I'll be spending. However, because ICL is an elite institution (8th in the world by some rankings) and chemistry is one of the courses that's easier to get onto, I'm not confident that any of the other departments would accept me onto their courses. I'm also quite emotionally attached to chemistry as a subject.
This situation is making me quite unhappy, I really don't know what to do. My family thinks I'm mad for being concerned about student debt, they keep telling me it's "just a tax" and I should accept it as a fact of life. Can anyone offer their perspective?
Update on my situation
If you want to do raw science, the pay sucks in most fields. If you'll sell out to business, big bucks.
In the US, a grad with a chemical engineering degree gets paid quite well. If you go into petroleum engineering, the pay can be even better.
Are you able to switch majors once you are in school? When I was in college, I switched from the arts/sciences school to the engineering school, to get out of my foriegn language requirement. I still got a major in computer science, it was just from the engineering school instead. I could have switched majors entirely though.
Another thought - if you manage your credits carefully and consider taking extra classes where they fit, you may be able to squeeze down the number of terms you are in school. I got my 4 year degree in 3 years. This saves on that year of schooling, but also gives you a year head start working. It can make a big difference financially.
In the US, a grad with a chemical engineering degree gets paid quite well. If you go into petroleum engineering, the pay can be even better.
Are you able to switch majors once you are in school? When I was in college, I switched from the arts/sciences school to the engineering school, to get out of my foriegn language requirement. I still got a major in computer science, it was just from the engineering school instead. I could have switched majors entirely though.
Another thought - if you manage your credits carefully and consider taking extra classes where they fit, you may be able to squeeze down the number of terms you are in school. I got my 4 year degree in 3 years. This saves on that year of schooling, but also gives you a year head start working. It can make a big difference financially.
I doubt I will be able to switch majors unless I meet the entry requirements for the course I want to switch too, which as I said, I'm not confident I will, and I definitely won't for engineering subjects (aside from Computing). Imperial College is one of the most prestigious engineering schools in the world. Entry to engineering courses requires at least an A or an A* in Further Maths A level, which I have not taken, and an A* in Maths A level, which I can't guarantee I'll get.
Graduating early is an impossibility. The length of the course is the length of the course, no exceptions.
Graduating early is an impossibility. The length of the course is the length of the course, no exceptions.
Why not defer for a year and take a year off ? Give yourself time to consider further, try out some different jobs, stockpile some cash to potentially offset some of the living costs at Imperial.Thanks. I have actually thought about that, but friends have advised me against it, and my parents would probably throw a fit if I did. Also, there's the feeling that I'm simply losing a year of graduate earnings. Maybe that view is a little too strictly money-focused, though.
(Apologies if I seem negative and defeatist, by the way. It's a thought pattern I've inherited from my parents.)
(Apologies if I seem negative and defeatist, by the way. It's a thought pattern I've inherited from my parents.)
My mother is neurotic and unwilling to relinquish control over my life decisions. She wants what she thinks is best for me. My dad basically goes along with everything my mother says.
I would be unable to convince her that I wouldn't spend the entire year sitting around doing nothing. I suggest I get a job? She insists there are no jobs. I say I'll try to improve my general skillset? She acts sarcastic and totally rubbishes it. It's difficult for me to just ignore her when I have my own doubts, and she is my mother after all. And I know that she isn't intentionally being mean or spiteful, she just has a very narrow worldview due to her entirely middle class social circles.
I would be unable to convince her that I wouldn't spend the entire year sitting around doing nothing. I suggest I get a job? She insists there are no jobs. I say I'll try to improve my general skillset? She acts sarcastic and totally rubbishes it. It's difficult for me to just ignore her when I have my own doubts, and she is my mother after all. And I know that she isn't intentionally being mean or spiteful, she just has a very narrow worldview due to her entirely middle class social circles.
Tuition is £9,000 a year. Accommodation in London might be in the region of £5,000 a year. Other expenses such as food and travel could be another few thousand.
Imperial actually recommends having £10,000 per academic year, in addition to tuition fees.
Let's say I'm frugal and get it down to £8,000 for the sake of some back-of-the-envelope figures. That's £17,000 a year.
EDIT: My parents will be able to give me £5,000 a year or so (sorry, forgot about that).
For a four-year MSci degree, that results in £48,000 of debt. For a three-year BSc, it's £36,000. Assuming I don't work at all.
I've applied to do the MSci, but I could switch to the BSc any time in the first two years.
The repayment of the debt is 9% of all income above £21,000.
Imperial actually recommends having £10,000 per academic year, in addition to tuition fees.
Let's say I'm frugal and get it down to £8,000 for the sake of some back-of-the-envelope figures. That's £17,000 a year.
EDIT: My parents will be able to give me £5,000 a year or so (sorry, forgot about that).
For a four-year MSci degree, that results in £48,000 of debt. For a three-year BSc, it's £36,000. Assuming I don't work at all.
I've applied to do the MSci, but I could switch to the BSc any time in the first two years.
The repayment of the debt is 9% of all income above £21,000.
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LiquidSapphire
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:40 pm
I wouldn't change majors if the only reason was to improve the $$ coming in - you will eventually hate whatever it is you are doing if you are only doing it for the money (ask me how I know). So I'd stick with chemistry.
Your options are to save money and pay for school out of savings, work during school and try to cash flow it as best you can, or borrow all of it and pay it back later.
If I were in your situation, I would probably do one of the following:
1) Own the fact that you are now an adult and get to make your own choices and move out and get a job for a year, and defer your education. I would only do this if you could be financially independent from your parents - if they are paying your housing right now or some tuition I probably wouldn't do this.
2) Work part time and during summers. Really hustle. You may still need to borrow something but, ideally, you might be able to keep it under $10,000 or so and, that amount of money wouldn't be too much of a burden to pay back. This also helps your resume - you will stand out over the other kids that didn't work during school, so it will help with your first fear that you won't make anything when you graduate - helps your job prospects.
I wouldn't just borrow it all and think about paying it back afterwards. I think the stress is immense and you'll feel better about whatever progress you may be making even if it is not 100% while you're in school. Plus working for it makes you appreciate it more (both how much $ you are borrowing, and appreciate the education you are receiving). I have to say that when I borrowed $10,000 it was almost like monopoly money at that age, I didn't really "get" just how much money that really was until after I was working for a while.
You should also consider applying for some scholarships. Even private ones. I hear many of the smaller ones ($500-$1000) are often unawarded simply because no one applied.
Your options are to save money and pay for school out of savings, work during school and try to cash flow it as best you can, or borrow all of it and pay it back later.
If I were in your situation, I would probably do one of the following:
1) Own the fact that you are now an adult and get to make your own choices and move out and get a job for a year, and defer your education. I would only do this if you could be financially independent from your parents - if they are paying your housing right now or some tuition I probably wouldn't do this.
2) Work part time and during summers. Really hustle. You may still need to borrow something but, ideally, you might be able to keep it under $10,000 or so and, that amount of money wouldn't be too much of a burden to pay back. This also helps your resume - you will stand out over the other kids that didn't work during school, so it will help with your first fear that you won't make anything when you graduate - helps your job prospects.
I wouldn't just borrow it all and think about paying it back afterwards. I think the stress is immense and you'll feel better about whatever progress you may be making even if it is not 100% while you're in school. Plus working for it makes you appreciate it more (both how much $ you are borrowing, and appreciate the education you are receiving). I have to say that when I borrowed $10,000 it was almost like monopoly money at that age, I didn't really "get" just how much money that really was until after I was working for a while.
You should also consider applying for some scholarships. Even private ones. I hear many of the smaller ones ($500-$1000) are often unawarded simply because no one applied.
Scholarships are an American thing. There are none that I am aware of in the UK.
The new tuition fees (£9,000 from £3,000) were only introduced this year, and the loans system is very 'generous'. The feeling is, nobody should really care about their student debt, because it's not 'like' other debt; it should be viewed as a roundabout sort of graduate tax. I'm not entirely convinced: both involve me having less money in the end.
The new tuition fees (£9,000 from £3,000) were only introduced this year, and the loans system is very 'generous'. The feeling is, nobody should really care about their student debt, because it's not 'like' other debt; it should be viewed as a roundabout sort of graduate tax. I'm not entirely convinced: both involve me having less money in the end.
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LiquidSapphire
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:40 pm
It's "generous" because, at least in the US, you will be stuck with it for a looooong time... you cannot bankrupt out of it. Just this last year they finally said that if after 20 years of income based repayment, you still haven't paid them back they would be forgiven but... that's 20 years of payments, and that's only if you never make any real money. Also, at least in the US, they are government subsidized, and so, what do the banks have to lose in lending to you? not much.
You should absolutely care about student loan debt. I took it on ($27,000 after all was said and done, and I worked up to 20 hours a week during the school year and 40+ in the summers) and I don't regret it, but if I knew then what I know how I probably would have made better choices so I had less of it. Anyway, just go to http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/ and read up for a few if you start thinking the student loan debt is no big deal. You're right to be weary to take it on.
You should absolutely care about student loan debt. I took it on ($27,000 after all was said and done, and I worked up to 20 hours a week during the school year and 40+ in the summers) and I don't regret it, but if I knew then what I know how I probably would have made better choices so I had less of it. Anyway, just go to http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/ and read up for a few if you start thinking the student loan debt is no big deal. You're right to be weary to take it on.
In the case of the UK the time before forgiveness is 30 years. Repayment rates are generous in the sense that you don't pay anything unless you're earning above £21,000 per annum (it's 9% of all income above that level, I think after taxes and national insurance payments).
I doubt I'd be able to work 20 hours a week in term time, the maximum recommended by Imperial is 8 hours. As I said, top university, isn't going to be much less than Oxford or MIT intensity level.
I doubt I'd be able to work 20 hours a week in term time, the maximum recommended by Imperial is 8 hours. As I said, top university, isn't going to be much less than Oxford or MIT intensity level.
I graduated school with about $50,000 US in debt. It took about 2 years to pay back and was not really a big deal. I just kept living like a student until the debt was gone.
IMO if you apply ERE principles to your living expenses before and immediately after school, you'll do just fine financially.
Could you do better pursuing a trade? Financially maybe. Socially and mentally? I dunno. Your peers are going to be at that school. You are paying to be at a playground with other talented people. I would think long and hard before giving that up to save some money.
IMO if you apply ERE principles to your living expenses before and immediately after school, you'll do just fine financially.
Could you do better pursuing a trade? Financially maybe. Socially and mentally? I dunno. Your peers are going to be at that school. You are paying to be at a playground with other talented people. I would think long and hard before giving that up to save some money.
My mother reacted very badly when I suggested I become an electrician. She asserted there were no apprenticeships available, and insisted that if there were I'd be with working class "pond life" who I wouldn't get along with...
(heaven forbid, her precious son mix with people who aren't middle class)
:/
(heaven forbid, her precious son mix with people who aren't middle class)
:/
Some of the sleaziest people I have encountered are "upstanding" white collar business men. There are scumbags in all walks of life, some are just better at hiding it.
It is very true the lifestyle and friends you would have as a tradesman are much different. If you become an electrician and your classmate becomes a lawyer or doctor, it's unlikely you'll stay in contact. Relationships do not tend to survive class boundries. The lifestyles are just too far apart.
It is very true the lifestyle and friends you would have as a tradesman are much different. If you become an electrician and your classmate becomes a lawyer or doctor, it's unlikely you'll stay in contact. Relationships do not tend to survive class boundries. The lifestyles are just too far apart.
tzxn3, your post has finally inspired me to stop lurking and post on here! I graduated about 8 years ago in a science, in the UK, and have finally paid off my student loan, so I understand the pressure you feel under! And my total loan was just £9,000.
I agree with your parents, your chances of getting a well paid job for a year out are very slim...
Have you fully explored all the opportunities for extra support available from Imperial? There are many bursaries, scholarships and grants available for students depending on their (parents) financial circumstances. Start researching here: http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/registry/stu ... alsupport/ and note that there may be some course specific support and awards available.
The new student loan scheme has a lot going for it for the ERE minded - potentially you will only pay back over a few years, if/when you take an income drop you will no longer have to pay.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/studen ... es-changes
London is a great city, but despite what you may have heard it can be cheap - Walk/cycle everywhere and avoid the expensive public transport, make the most of ethnic food stores and the many markets for cheap food, enjoy the plentiful free museums/concerts/tv recordings, and get a job!!
There will be lots of opportunity for part-time work while studying in London. Look in coffee shops, pubs, restaurants for around £7 an hour. I worked weekends throughout uni and enjoyed it - it helps you meet a broader range of people. Plus it gives you a better chance for holiday work. It should be possible to earn £4-5,000 a year without affecting your studies.
Resisting the temptation to spend your loan in expensive pubs & clubs will be your greatest challenge. You will need to set some money aside for entertainment when you first start, but learn to settle down to a budget quickly. Find friends with a similar approach. (These will be the ones you find washing their laundry on a tuesday night, instead of going to the latest student union bar party...). As a chemist you should make your own beer, and then the party will come to you. (whether you accept "donations" or not is up to you)
Chemistry opens up many career opportunities. Focus on building numerical, research and analytic skills, and most major city companies will consider you. Also develop your IT skills where you can, learning to model complex chemistry is a very transferable skill. There are still some big pharma companies in the UK who pay well.
Another option which your degree may offer is a "year in industry" scheme, where you can take a 1 year paid placement in a proper job, and get experience about what working is really like.
Good luck!
I agree with your parents, your chances of getting a well paid job for a year out are very slim...
Have you fully explored all the opportunities for extra support available from Imperial? There are many bursaries, scholarships and grants available for students depending on their (parents) financial circumstances. Start researching here: http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/registry/stu ... alsupport/ and note that there may be some course specific support and awards available.
The new student loan scheme has a lot going for it for the ERE minded - potentially you will only pay back over a few years, if/when you take an income drop you will no longer have to pay.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/studen ... es-changes
London is a great city, but despite what you may have heard it can be cheap - Walk/cycle everywhere and avoid the expensive public transport, make the most of ethnic food stores and the many markets for cheap food, enjoy the plentiful free museums/concerts/tv recordings, and get a job!!
There will be lots of opportunity for part-time work while studying in London. Look in coffee shops, pubs, restaurants for around £7 an hour. I worked weekends throughout uni and enjoyed it - it helps you meet a broader range of people. Plus it gives you a better chance for holiday work. It should be possible to earn £4-5,000 a year without affecting your studies.
Resisting the temptation to spend your loan in expensive pubs & clubs will be your greatest challenge. You will need to set some money aside for entertainment when you first start, but learn to settle down to a budget quickly. Find friends with a similar approach. (These will be the ones you find washing their laundry on a tuesday night, instead of going to the latest student union bar party...). As a chemist you should make your own beer, and then the party will come to you. (whether you accept "donations" or not is up to you)
Chemistry opens up many career opportunities. Focus on building numerical, research and analytic skills, and most major city companies will consider you. Also develop your IT skills where you can, learning to model complex chemistry is a very transferable skill. There are still some big pharma companies in the UK who pay well.
Another option which your degree may offer is a "year in industry" scheme, where you can take a 1 year paid placement in a proper job, and get experience about what working is really like.
Good luck!
Thanks for the insightful post, DeadDave.
I don't seem to be eligible for any of those scholarships. My household income is too high, I'm not studying engineering, and I'm not from Bulgaria.
I suppose, however, with the parental help I'll be getting, in addition to working, the debt burden might not exceed a manageable amount.
I already have an active interest in computer science. I have a small amount of experience writing scripts in Python. I'm currently trying to teach myself Haskell, and I plan to take up C and Smalltalk (and perhaps something more marketable like C++ or Java). I think I might do something computationally oriented for my final year project.
I don't seem to be eligible for any of those scholarships. My household income is too high, I'm not studying engineering, and I'm not from Bulgaria.
I suppose, however, with the parental help I'll be getting, in addition to working, the debt burden might not exceed a manageable amount.
I already have an active interest in computer science. I have a small amount of experience writing scripts in Python. I'm currently trying to teach myself Haskell, and I plan to take up C and Smalltalk (and perhaps something more marketable like C++ or Java). I think I might do something computationally oriented for my final year project.